Rumors: Pakistan to acquire five C-130J Super Hercules

[Ghessan]

I agree. If you look at the thread, the other party here is the one that has been aggressive for quite a few pages. A response was only fair. We aren't enforcing speculation on others but simply asking to be allowed to speculate without threads being derailed, and insulting comments made.

Let us speculate. You don't have to agree. Even I am not 70% sure about these speculations. But let us not be censored from having a discussion about it.

To be a fair judge, you have to see who is starting this first. An analogy helps - do you blame India for Kashmir atrocities or the Kashmiri people. Obviously India because they are the instigators. What if some fellow comes up and says "both sides need to stop attacking each other". That wouldn't make sense because the just ruling is to see which party is the instigator. Without that nuance, you end up becoming a kangaroo court.

If you walk to to the party responding to pages of attacks, and blame them - you're playing partisan politics on the side of the other party. Even if you are pretending to be a fair judge.



No, he said the Su-35s are not coming and instead the J-15s were chosen. So, he is saying:
F-16, C-130, AH-1, J-15. Even if half these show up, won't we be happy?
Most of us, including me, don't have any inside information. @Khafee does @Ark_Angel does. @airomerix does. There are a very few posters of the many multitudes that have such info.

If you can't respect them and insult them, they will go away. Whose loss will it be then?

I saw posters attacking @airomerix. That is not right, if we don't respect our professionals and people with insider info, the loss will be PDFs. These guys are not getting paid to post this stuff.

Its relatively easy to say "I don't believe anything and nothing is coming unless they land in Pakistan". Anyone can say that.

The far harder task is to read between the lines of posters who have real info and real input. Their theories may or may not come true. The world of defense procurement is a very different world from going shopping for groceries.

The only insider info I have is in the Bangladeshi procurement process. I can tell you I haven't given anything away. If I did, I could be in serious trouble for it. Not that we usually purchase interesting things.
What I do know is that deals can fail in the last minute. This doesn't mean that the information is wrong and you have a free pass to insult and attack the very precious professionals who do have it.

masses do not understand these things, but few does even if you repeat your words again and again, those comments will keep coming.

sometimes we want to keep involved in a discussion and sometimes we try to exploit the info just to bring some more out of it (nature of posters with different level of intellect) hence the discussion gets dirty.

on the other side informed people too have limitations, they even have to juggle with the words to leak information to a certain level and in a certain manner which is not easy.

now if one says why such urgency in leaking the information, i know even those people are waiting for something to make their day and then we are skeptical.

 

[Arsalan]

Thank you for your kind words.

What you're saying is indeed true.

I did get some more information but I will be not be disclosing anything until internet floods with it.

I opened this thread for speculation and discussion on what happens AFTER these 5 airframes arrive. But the focus of the members was misplaced I guess.

The intention should have been to discuss what happens next and the idea would have been shared with a "What it we get ......"
You were sure about it and others were oblivious, the whole thing was derailed and went out of control. I know it was not intended on your part and count on me to offer any help to handle this. Report and/or let me know if someone crosses the line. I will personally take care of it.

To @Armchair who explained the thing quite nicely in above post and many others eager to continue with this speculation/discussion, i will try to explain the other side of things to you. Please understand why this whole thing faces resistance while the sole idea and purpose of this forum is to discuss possibilities and analyze happenings (although we are more into discussion possibilities than we are into analyzing happenings which is not very positive in my personal opinion). I hope you all understand the reasons, here on this very forum we have YEARS old threads (some sticky) about Pakistan military procurement of U-214 submarines, G-3 replacement, T-129 Helicopters, Eurofighter Typhoons, Su-35, J-16 (there never was one about J-15 but the idea popped-up on this thread so don't be surprised if a thread is made too), F-16 Block 70/72, J-31, Wheeled SPH, etc etc. No i am not saying that none of these things will happen! Also not saying that people should not be discussing or speculating about these. ALSO i am aware that there is some logical reason behind some of these being never under consideration, some already been scrapped and some others that still have not become a reality. The only problem have been the absolute certainty with which some (not i am being polite, its not some but all) claims were made. Its a done deal, they are coming, its on way, money no issue, whether you believe it or not this is the only truth!! The comments and claims like these have made people uneasy and uncertain now, reluctant to accept any such insider information as it is. This do not mean any disrespect to any particular person who shared the news that came out to be untrue. We do not have officers from procurement departments here, we are not the GHQ which will know these procurement things with certainty, hell even GHQ wont be certain about many things and we know it. The problem have been the rigidity, both from those who believed and those who didn't.

Literally for YEARS now i have been trying to explain and make our members understand just one point on this subject. THERE ARE NO CERTAINTIES IN THIS BUSINESS, ESPECIALLY NOT IN OUR CASE AND NONE WHATSOEVER WHEN IT COMES TO PROCUREMENT FROM US OR THE WEST IN GENERAL. Please understand that having allocated money for a particular defense deal and "money no issue" are not the same. You have rivals, your have ENEMIES, You having allocated the money to buy 12 helicopters may not still be enough as your enemy may flat a 64 helicopter tender. Things get blocked, a single wrong statement, a false flag operation, an unfortunate terrorist attack at an unfortunate location, all things can derail and jeopardize a deal DAYS before the thing becomes a reality. So while you are all free to discuss possibilities, please do not turn them into certainties until there is hardware you can touch and feel and see. If we continue to do so, we will continue to face increasing resistance to idea sharing.

I was having a chat with one of our members here (he will know i am talking about him), he asked me why i am not believing the AH-1Z arriving news. My answer was that who says i do not believe it? I do! However i also believe those people who are saying that this is not true. I have talked to serving men, denying and admitting the arrival of AH-1Z cobras in Pakistan. Can both of them be correct? certainly not,,, Do i have ANY REASON to believe what one is saying over the other,,, certainly not,,, So the sensible thing to do was to refrain being CERTAIN about anything. Its a possibility, yes, lets keep it that way and discuss it. Discuss it and the future implications! That is how you construct a thread.

Once again, to all people, eps Professional Title Holders, let me know if someone is crossing the line and i will take care of it BUT also being the senior and respected members, share the responsibility and be guide and lead the thread/members toward a constructive debate and discussion. Even if you personally are certain about something BUT it have not be revealed in public, you do understand that there is some good reason for that. So until it is, please try to keep this to a "possibility" and build a debate/discussion on it.

@Blacklight @Tps43 @PanzerKiel @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Joe Shearer

 

[Tps43]

The intention should have been to discuss what happens next and the idea would have been shared with a "What it we get ......"
You were sure about it and others were oblivious, the whole thing was derailed and went out of control. I know it was not intended on your part and count on me to offer any help to handle this. Report and/or let me know if someone crosses the line. I will personally take care of it.

To @Armchair who explained the thing quite nicely in above post and many others eager to continue with this speculation/discussion, i will try to explain the other side of things to you. Please understand why this whole thing faces resistance while the sole idea and purpose of this forum is to discuss possibilities and analyze happenings (although we are more into discussion possibilities than we are into analyzing happenings which is not very positive in my personal opinion). I hope you all understand the reasons, here on this very forum we have YEARS old threads (some sticky) about Pakistan military procurement of U-214 submarines, G-3 replacement, T-129 Helicopters, Eurofighter Typhoons, Su-35, J-16 (there never was one about J-15 but the idea popped-up on this thread so don't be surprised if a thread is made too), F-16 Block 70/72, J-31, Wheeled SPH, etc etc. No i am not saying that none of these things will happen! Also not saying that people should not be discussing or speculating about these. ALSO i am aware that there is some logical reason behind some of these being never under consideration, some already been scrapped and some others that still have not become a reality. The only problem have been the absolute certainty with which some (not i am being polite, its not some but all) claims were made. Its a done deal, they are coming, its on way, money no issue, whether you believe it or not this is the only truth!! The comments and claims like these have made people uneasy and uncertain now, reluctant to accept any such insider information as it is. This do not mean any disrespect to any particular person who shared the news that came out to be untrue. We do not have officers from procurement departments here, we are not the GHQ which will know these procurement things with certainty, hell even GHQ wont be certain about many things and we know it. The problem have been the rigidity, both from those who believed and those who didn't.

Literally for YEARS now i have been trying to explain and make our members understand just one point on this subject. THERE ARE NO CERTAINTIES IN THIS BUSINESS, ESPECIALLY NOT IN OUR CASE AND NONE WHATSOEVER WHEN IT COMES TO PROCUREMENT FROM US OR THE WEST IN GENERAL. Please understand that having allocated money for a particular defense deal and "money no issue" are not the same. You have rivals, your have ENEMIES, You having allocated the money to buy 12 helicopters may not still be enough as your enemy may flat a 64 helicopter tender. Things get blocked, a single wrong statement, a false flag operation, an unfortunate terrorist attack at an unfortunate location, all things can derail and jeopardize a deal DAYS before the thing becomes a reality. So while you are all free to discuss possibilities, please do not turn them into certainties until there is hardware you can touch and feel and see. If we continue to do so, we will continue to face increasing resistance to idea sharing.

I was having a chat with one of our members here (he will know i am talking about him), he asked me why i am not believing the AH-1Z arriving news. My answer was that who says i do not believe it? I do! However i also believe those people who are saying that this is not true. I have talked to serving men, denying and admitting the arrival of AH-1Z cobras in Pakistan. Can both of them be correct? certainly not,,, Do i have ANY REASON to believe what one is saying over the other,,, certainly not,,, So the sensible thing to do was to refrain being CERTAIN about anything. Its a possibility, yes, lets keep it that way and discuss it. Discuss it and the future implications! That is how you construct a thread.

Once again, to all people, eps Professional Title Holders, let me know if someone is crossing the line and i will take care of it BUT also being the senior and respected members, share the responsibility and be guide and lead the thread/members toward a constructive debate and discussion. Even if you personally are certain about something BUT it have not be revealed in public, you do understand that there is some good reason for that. So until it is, please try to keep this to a "possibility" and build a debate/discussion on it.

@Blacklight @Tps43 @PanzerKiel @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Joe Shearer

U elaborated this quite good , Sometimes it's better to deflect things for time being and not to lose ur cool when provoked !!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

U elaborated this quite good , Sometimes it's better to deflect things for time being and not to lose ur cool when provoked !!!

This is exactly what happens in almost every case of major item procurement. Even within the armed forces, it is never, ever a done deal until the equipment arrives!

Great analysis by @Arsalan.

 

[Armchair]

The intention should have been to discuss what happens next and the idea would have been shared with a "What it we get ......"
You were sure about it and others were oblivious, the whole thing was derailed and went out of control. I know it was not intended on your part and count on me to offer any help to handle this. Report and/or let me know if someone crosses the line. I will personally take care of it.

To @Armchair who explained the thing quite nicely in above post and many others eager to continue with this speculation/discussion, i will try to explain the other side of things to you. Please understand why this whole thing faces resistance while the sole idea and purpose of this forum is to discuss possibilities and analyze happenings (although we are more into discussion possibilities than we are into analyzing happenings which is not very positive in my personal opinion). I hope you all understand the reasons, here on this very forum we have YEARS old threads (some sticky) about Pakistan military procurement of U-214 submarines, G-3 replacement, T-129 Helicopters, Eurofighter Typhoons, Su-35, J-16 (there never was one about J-15 but the idea popped-up on this thread so don't be surprised if a thread is made too), F-16 Block 70/72, J-31, Wheeled SPH, etc etc. No i am not saying that none of these things will happen! Also not saying that people should not be discussing or speculating about these. ALSO i am aware that there is some logical reason behind some of these being never under consideration, some already been scrapped and some others that still have not become a reality. The only problem have been the absolute certainty with which some (not i am being polite, its not some but all) claims were made. Its a done deal, they are coming, its on way, money no issue, whether you believe it or not this is the only truth!! The comments and claims like these have made people uneasy and uncertain now, reluctant to accept any such insider information as it is. This do not mean any disrespect to any particular person who shared the news that came out to be untrue. We do not have officers from procurement departments here, we are not the GHQ which will know these procurement things with certainty, hell even GHQ wont be certain about many things and we know it. The problem have been the rigidity, both from those who believed and those who didn't.

Literally for YEARS now i have been trying to explain and make our members understand just one point on this subject. THERE ARE NO CERTAINTIES IN THIS BUSINESS, ESPECIALLY NOT IN OUR CASE AND NONE WHATSOEVER WHEN IT COMES TO PROCUREMENT FROM US OR THE WEST IN GENERAL. Please understand that having allocated money for a particular defense deal and "money no issue" are not the same. You have rivals, your have ENEMIES, You having allocated the money to buy 12 helicopters may not still be enough as your enemy may flat a 64 helicopter tender. Things get blocked, a single wrong statement, a false flag operation, an unfortunate terrorist attack at an unfortunate location, all things can derail and jeopardize a deal DAYS before the thing becomes a reality. So while you are all free to discuss possibilities, please do not turn them into certainties until there is hardware you can touch and feel and see. If we continue to do so, we will continue to face increasing resistance to idea sharing.

I was having a chat with one of our members here (he will know i am talking about him), he asked me why i am not believing the AH-1Z arriving news. My answer was that who says i do not believe it? I do! However i also believe those people who are saying that this is not true. I have talked to serving men, denying and admitting the arrival of AH-1Z cobras in Pakistan. Can both of them be correct? certainly not,,, Do i have ANY REASON to believe what one is saying over the other,,, certainly not,,, So the sensible thing to do was to refrain being CERTAIN about anything. Its a possibility, yes, lets keep it that way and discuss it. Discuss it and the future implications! That is how you construct a thread.

Once again, to all people, eps Professional Title Holders, let me know if someone is crossing the line and i will take care of it BUT also being the senior and respected members, share the responsibility and be guide and lead the thread/members toward a constructive debate and discussion. Even if you personally are certain about something BUT it have not be revealed in public, you do understand that there is some good reason for that. So until it is, please try to keep this to a "possibility" and build a debate/discussion on it.

@Blacklight @Tps43 @PanzerKiel @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal Khan 777 @Joe Shearer

Brilliant post. Deserves a positive rating.

 

[araz]

This is exactly what happens in almost every case of major item procurement. Even within the armed forces, it is never, ever a done deal until the equipment arrives!

Great analysis by @Arsalan.

I knew a gentleman who later on became base commander of a major base. I asked him what is happening and he said nothing new. So I asked him directly about JFT testing. He said, Bhai, they dont even let us come near the area. So I can say testing is on goi ng but honestly dont know of what and when it will be completed.
Now I dont know whether this man who was like my younger brother was lying to me or genuinely did not know. But just to reinforce the idea that procurements is a funny business. One guy on a sister forum got Court martialled and another gent got into trouble for leaking a sales news that was scuppered because of the premature leak.
I have utmost of respect for @airomerix ,@Blacklight and @PAR 5 and other professionals, but I think we need to be a bit careful here as to what comes out and what does not. Timing as always will have to be impeccable. I have requested @Arsalan a few things and if he can set those up there may be a platform for us to discuss certain things without getting the world and their aunts too excited.
Kind regards
A
PS:I am increasingly concerned about @bilal khan777. He has not been seen for quite some time and he was not well the last time he was here. May Allah keep him in his Hifz and Amaan. Ameen.
A

Sorry I forgot our Kaka @Tps43
A

 

[Joe Shearer]

I knew a gentleman who later on became base commander of a major base. I asked him what is happening and he said nothing new. So I asked him directly about JFT testing. He said, Bhai, they dont even let us come near the area. So I can say testing is on goi ng but honestly dont know of what and when it will be completed.
Now I dont know whether this man who was like my younger brother was lying to me or genuinely did not know. But just to reinforce the idea that procurements is a funny business. One guy on a sister forum got Court martialled and another gent got into trouble for leaking a sales news that was scuppered because of the premature leak.
I have utmost of respect for @airomerix ,@Blacklight and @PAR 5 and other professionals, but I think we need to be a bit careful here as to what comes out and what does not. Timing as always will have to be impeccable. I have requested @Arsalan a few things and if he can set those up there may be a platform for us to discuss certain things without getting the world and their aunts too excited.
Kind regards
A
PS:I am increasingly concerned about @bilal khan777. He has not been seen for quite some time and he was not well the last time he was here. May Allah keep him in his Hifz and Amaan. Ameen.
A

Just deleted something stupid I was about to post! More elsewhere.

I knew a gentleman who later on became base commander of a major base. I asked him what is happening and he said nothing new. So I asked him directly about JFT testing. He said, Bhai, they dont even let us come near the area. So I can say testing is on goi ng but honestly dont know of what and when it will be completed.
Now I dont know whether this man who was like my younger brother was lying to me or genuinely did not know. But just to reinforce the idea that procurements is a funny business. One guy on a sister forum got Court martialled and another gent got into trouble for leaking a sales news that was scuppered because of the premature leak.
I have utmost of respect for @airomerix ,@Blacklight and @PAR 5 and other professionals, but I think we need to be a bit careful here as to what comes out and what does not. Timing as always will have to be impeccable. I have requested @Arsalan a few things and if he can set those up there may be a platform for us to discuss certain things without getting the world and their aunts too excited.
Kind regards
A
PS:I am increasingly concerned about @bilal khan777. He has not been seen for quite some time and he was not well the last time he was here. May Allah keep him in his Hifz and Amaan. Ameen.
A
Sorry I forgot our Kaka @Tps43
A

Sincerely hope @Bilal Khan 777 is well.

 

[araz]

Just deleted something stupid I was about to post! More elsewhere.

My brother.
There are enough posts of those nature so why add to the rubbish ones. You are really an asset as you provide us with a counter argument and a narrative which is both balanced and well thought out. You deserve our respect for that.
A

 

[Blacklight]

My brother.
There are enough posts of those nature so why add to the rubbish ones. You are really an asset as you provide us with a counter argument and a narrative which is both balanced and well thought out. You deserve our respect for that.
A

Very well said, he is surely under valued here.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Very well said, he is surely under valued here.

I've promised myself - never again post anywhere but in a military thread. No more social nonsense; those threads are pure poison.

 

[Blacklight]

I've promised myself - never again post anywhere but in a military thread. No more social nonsense; those threads are pure poison.

I promised myself, I will never look at women again, after engagement, but men are men

 

[Scorpiooo]

I promised myself, I will never look at women again, after engagement, but men are men

How many engagements at a time ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I promised myself, I will never look at women again, after engagement, but men are men

LOLOL. MY lips are sealed. I am not sure when the responsible authority will unseal them.

 

[Tps43]

I knew a gentleman who later on became base commander of a major base. I asked him what is happening and he said nothing new. So I asked him directly about JFT testing. He said, Bhai, they dont even let us come near the area. So I can say testing is on goi ng but honestly dont know of what and when it will be completed.
Now I dont know whether this man who was like my younger brother was lying to me or genuinely did not know. But just to reinforce the idea that procurements is a funny business. One guy on a sister forum got Court martialled and another gent got into trouble for leaking a sales news that was scuppered because of the premature leak.
I have utmost of respect for @airomerix ,@Blacklight and @PAR 5 and other professionals, but I think we need to be a bit careful here as to what comes out and what does not. Timing as always will have to be impeccable. I have requested @Arsalan a few things and if he can set those up there may be a platform for us to discuss certain things without getting the world and their aunts too excited.
Kind regards
A
PS:I am increasingly concerned about @bilal khan777. He has not been seen for quite some time and he was not well the last time he was here. May Allah keep him in his Hifz and Amaan. Ameen.
A

Sorry I forgot our Kaka @Tps43
A

Yes there are thousand and one things happening and we got to be careful with details as it can disrupt things.

This is exactly what happens in almost every case of major item procurement. Even within the armed forces, it is never, ever a done deal until the equipment arrives!

Great analysis by @Arsalan.

yes , there is a proper timeline of things and they get public when the said force feel comfortable doing it

 

[YeBeWarned]

PDF members has no patience ... look at me I am still waiting for 1 Picture of Pantsir in PA for years now