Rumors: Pakistan to acquire five C-130J Super Hercules

[SQ8]

Thank you @Arsalan and @araz for saying out loud what I have been trying to infer to by poor analogy.

 

[Arsalan]

Thank you @Arsalan and @araz for saying out loud what I have been trying to infer to by poor analogy.

Just glad that everyone teamed up to slow things down. At least last two pages are not filled with news of what is or is not coming. The important thing is we keep it that way and rather than confirming or denying such things focus on implications of both. That would be much more constructive and informative.

 

[Armchair]

On that note @Arsalan I cannot see why Pakistan wants C-130Js and won't budge for something smaller. Perhaps 90% of the work the PAF engages in at the national level can be done cheaper by C-27Js which would have been easy to acquire as the US was holding back on the C-130s due to strategic airlift considerations.

 

[Armchair]

Basically, brand new aircraft, or barely used aircraft at bargain basement prices. Would fulfill 90% of the in country tasks of the C-130s. And... PAF just passed it over.
Could have been available many years ago... By now, PAF would have a solid transport fleet.
Opportunity missed...

New C-27J Cargo Planes Stored In Arizona Boneyard
Military 'Has No Use' For For The Spartans
New C-27J Spartan cargo planes ordered by the U.S. Air Force are being delivered ... directly to a storage "boneyard" in the Arizona desert. There are reportedly nearly a dozen new Spartans sitting on the ramp at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ.

​

The Dayton Daily News reports that the Air Force has spent some $567 million to acquire 21 new Spartans since 2007, but has found that the Air Force does not have missions for many of the aircraft.

The planes had originally been acquired because of their ability to operate from unimproved runways. But sequestration forced the Air Force to re-think the airplane's mission, and it determined that they were not a necessity, according to an analyst with the Project for Government Oversight.

The airplanes supported up to 800 jobs at Mansfield National Guard Base in Ohio, which led the state's congressional delegation to strongly support the continued acquisition of the airplanes, even though former Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz said in a congressional hearing that the C-130 can do everything the C-27J can at nearly $100 million less per airplane.

President Barak Obama said during a campaign stop in Mansfield during the last election cycle said he promised to "find a mission" for the base there, which led to the transfer of several C-130 airplanes to Ohio.

But the C-27J Spartans are parked in the desert, and more are being built and delivered into storage. An Air Force spokesman said the program was "too near completion" to be able to terminate the program in a way that does not cost the taxpayers more than building the airplanes and sending them immediately to the boneyard. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e1aebd19-7147-4a0d-bac9-e4458f0f42da

 

[Arsalan]

On that note @Arsalan I cannot see why Pakistan wants C-130Js and won't budge for something smaller. Perhaps 90% of the work the PAF engages in at the national level can be done cheaper by C-27Js which would have been easy to acquire as the US was holding back on the C-130s due to strategic airlift considerations.

My idea is that C-130 fits perfectly in that medium category, not a heavy weight strategic airlifted that we need very few of, if any, but not with a very limited load carrying capacity either (C-27J payload is approximately half of that of C-130). Suit us very well forming the backbone of army & air force airlift operations supported by limited number of heavier and lighter weight capacity aircraft.
C-27 will only make sense to me if we are looking to get 20-25 of these in a mix of maritime patrol aircraft, EW & may be even ground attack along side the strategic transport ones. We know none of this is happening. Thus, sticking to C-130 AND to be supported by CN-235 in lower weight capacity roles.

 

[In arduis fidelis]

Basically, brand new aircraft, or barely used aircraft at bargain basement prices. Would fulfill 90% of the in country tasks of the C-130s. And... PAF just passed it over.
Could have been available many years ago... By now, PAF would have a solid transport fleet.
Opportunity missed...

New C-27J Cargo Planes Stored In Arizona Boneyard
Military 'Has No Use' For For The Spartans
New C-27J Spartan cargo planes ordered by the U.S. Air Force are being delivered ... directly to a storage "boneyard" in the Arizona desert. There are reportedly nearly a dozen new Spartans sitting on the ramp at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ.

​

The Dayton Daily News reports that the Air Force has spent some $567 million to acquire 21 new Spartans since 2007, but has found that the Air Force does not have missions for many of the aircraft.

The planes had originally been acquired because of their ability to operate from unimproved runways. But sequestration forced the Air Force to re-think the airplane's mission, and it determined that they were not a necessity, according to an analyst with the Project for Government Oversight.

The airplanes supported up to 800 jobs at Mansfield National Guard Base in Ohio, which led the state's congressional delegation to strongly support the continued acquisition of the airplanes, even though former Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz said in a congressional hearing that the C-130 can do everything the C-27J can at nearly $100 million less per airplane.

President Barak Obama said during a campaign stop in Mansfield during the last election cycle said he promised to "find a mission" for the base there, which led to the transfer of several C-130 airplanes to Ohio.

But the C-27J Spartans are parked in the desert, and more are being built and delivered into storage. An Air Force spokesman said the program was "too near completion" to be able to terminate the program in a way that does not cost the taxpayers more than building the airplanes and sending them immediately to the boneyard. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=e1aebd19-7147-4a0d-bac9-e4458f0f42da

I am sure Americans would want someone to take them off their hands.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

at least m sure u must be mmw longbow radar.10 tracking and two targets at a time

Are MMW coming in PAA's AH1Zs?

 

[Armchair]

My idea is that C-130 fits perfectly in that medium category, not a heavy weight strategic airlifted that we need very few of, if any, but not with a very limited load carrying capacity either (C-27J payload is approximately half of that of C-130). Suit us very well forming the backbone of army & air force airlift operations supported by limited number of heavier and lighter weight capacity aircraft.
C-27 will only make sense to me if we are looking to get 20-25 of these in a mix of maritime patrol aircraft, EW & may be even ground attack along side the strategic transport ones. We know none of this is happening. Thus, sticking to C-130 AND to be supported by CN-235 in lower weight capacity roles.

Actually the C-27J can lift a lot more than 50% of the C-130H:
C-130H:
Capacity: 19000 kg

C-27J:
Capacity: 11,600 kg

(61%)
Sometimes life is not perfect and what you want, you may not get. The US was stalling C-130J for Pakistan for quite a long time. So, the logical action should have been to go for something that will get the job done 90% of the requirement rather than not getting anything at all.

Its been more than a decade of trying to get C-130Js from the US. Tomorrow, if the US closes its doors and/or a war starts, who will you blame?

Did Pakistan learn anything from the aftermath of the end of the Cold War and the beginning of Pressler Amendments? Why are they largely unable to learn from their mistakes and repeat those mistakes over and over again...

So the alternative was, have 20 C-27J parked today, doing a large number of the airlift duties, thus saving the PAF C-130Hs flight hours. Being able to replenish most PAF FOBs. Pak could have customized a few for niche roles or even naval roles.

But instead, the choice chosen was to get nothing at all. While making a best effort to get C-130Js or more C-130Hs, knowing well that the US is able to make a country go round and round in a merry-go round circle. It could simply tell their Five Eyes partners to pretend to want to sell C-130Hs while making them go in circles and waste their time.

 

[Tipu7]

Actually the C-27J can lift a lot more than 50% of the C-130H:
C-130H:
Capacity: 19000 kg

C-27J:
Capacity: 11,600 kg

(61%)
Sometimes life is not perfect and what you want, you may not get. The US was stalling C-130J for Pakistan for quite a long time. So, the logical action should have been to go for something that will get the job done 90% of the requirement rather than not getting anything at all.

Its been more than a decade of trying to get C-130Js from the US. Tomorrow, if the US closes its doors and/or a war starts, who will you blame?

Did Pakistan learn anything from the aftermath of the end of the Cold War and the beginning of Pressler Amendments? Why are they largely unable to learn from their mistakes and repeat those mistakes over and over again...

So the alternative was, have 20 C-27J parked today, doing a large number of the airlift duties, thus saving the PAF C-130Hs flight hours. Being able to replenish most PAF FOBs. Pak could have customized a few for niche roles or even naval roles.

But instead, the choice chosen was to get nothing at all. While making a best effort to get C-130Js or more C-130Hs, knowing well that the US is able to make a country go round and round in a merry-go round circle. It could simply tell their Five Eyes partners to pretend to want to sell C-130Hs while making them go in circles and waste their time.

PAF has observed C27 in past and have rejected it. From over simplification perspective, there are three lift categories in PAF; Heavy (Il-78), Medium (C130) and Light (CN-235). If need arises more CN-235 may come and in same timeline we might see a new Heavy lift aircraft too (Far future). C27 don't fit in.

Are MMW coming in PAA's AH1Zs?

No.

 

[Arsalan]

Actually the C-27J can lift a lot more than 50% of the C-130H:
C-130H:
Capacity: 19000 kg

C-27J:
Capacity: 11,600 kg

(61%)
Sometimes life is not perfect and what you want, you may not get. The US was stalling C-130J for Pakistan for quite a long time. So, the logical action should have been to go for something that will get the job done 90% of the requirement rather than not getting anything at all.

Its been more than a decade of trying to get C-130Js from the US. Tomorrow, if the US closes its doors and/or a war starts, who will you blame?

Did Pakistan learn anything from the aftermath of the end of the Cold War and the beginning of Pressler Amendments? Why are they largely unable to learn from their mistakes and repeat those mistakes over and over again...

So the alternative was, have 20 C-27J parked today, doing a large number of the airlift duties, thus saving the PAF C-130Hs flight hours. Being able to replenish most PAF FOBs. Pak could have customized a few for niche roles or even naval roles.

But instead, the choice chosen was to get nothing at all. While making a best effort to get C-130Js or more C-130Hs, knowing well that the US is able to make a country go round and round in a merry-go round circle. It could simply tell their Five Eyes partners to pretend to want to sell C-130Hs while making them go in circles and waste their time.

Yeah i said approximate for this reason.

The problem for PA/PAF is that C-27 neither fits in the medium category nor in the lighter one. The aircraft are distributed into these three categories in PA/PAF and C-27 do not fit in any role. Unless we need something that have more capacity than C-235 we operate but lesser than C-130 that we operate too, there wont be a new system and i do not think we have any such need. If anything new comes, it will be in same weight category as C-235, C-130 or the heavy lift Il-78. Plus, most of the systems will be in the med lift category anyway, that is C-130!

 

[Armchair]

PAF has observed C27 in past and have rejected it. From over simplification perspective, there are three lift categories in PAF; Heavy (Il-78), Medium (C130) and Light (CN-235). If need arises more CN-235 may come and in same timeline we might see a new Heavy lift aircraft too (Far future). C27 don't fit in.

No.

Rejecting things are easy. We can just make up as many categories we want. But CN-235 cannot be bought with US funds. Meaning Pakistan would have to pay for them with hard currency. Is that even meaningful in the current situation?

There is a huge amount of CSF just left unused. Seems either Pakistan is swimming with money or something is not making sense. There is just no meaningful rationale to this.

@Arsalan alright I guess the PAF rationale is hell with these Americans. We will get the C-130s by hook or by crook. And if nothing materializes, who needs CSF? Just dump that money into the river, see if we care. We have our nice, neatly created lift categories and you better give them to us in those categories son.

 

[Tipu7]

Rejecting things are easy. We can just make up as many categories we want. But CN-235 cannot be bought with US funds. Meaning Pakistan would have to pay for them with hard currency. Is that even meaningful in the current situation?

There is a huge amount of CSF just left unused. Seems either Pakistan is swimming with money or something is not making sense. There is just no meaningful rationale to this.

@Arsalan alright I guess the PAF rationale is hell with these Americans. We will get the C-130s by hook or by crook. And if nothing materializes, who needs CSF? Just dump that money into the river, see if we care. We have our nice, neatly created lift categories and you better give them to us in those categories son.

Just because any thing exists in reserves does not mean its available for export.
Pakistan is acquiring new C130J as its the condition imposed by USA to allow the sales from surplus stocks. Otherwise our aim was 8 surplus C130s, not new ones.

If PAF seeks C27 - though there is absolutely no need for it - then it will have to acquire new ones too. And we are not interested to follow this route.

But CN-235 cannot be bought with US funds. Meaning Pakistan would have to pay for them with hard currency. Is that even meaningful in the current situation?

When we will seek them we will be far ahead of these 'current conditions'.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

Are MMW coming in PAA's AH1Zs?

No. As per the initial procurement plan.

 

[Armchair]

Let's see if the C-130Js do end up in Pakistan. Hope but nothing is for certain. @Tipu7

C-27Js would have been available from the Boneyard. Brand new or nearly brand new. As EDA... and basically for pennies to the CSF. Would have met a large number of the requirements. And would have arrived in Pakistan long ago.

PAF is now playing at the 11th hour and perhaps they can get the C-130Js before the door closes. Let's see though.

 

[ali_raza]

With Version 6 upgrade

does it have soft kill or hard kill capabilities