Roman Empire vs Han Empire

[Grand Historian]

But this is what you did. In this exact thread, quoted some figures (we'll get to this figure in a moment, how you got it and how reliable it is) from some forum for a Chinese region, then used that figure to extrapolate the total Chinese output.

You don't seem to realize both "stats" are guesstimates in which Needham severely underestimated Chinese production while the stat given for the Romans is derived off an area known producing metals.

So basically you're comparing wrong time periods while giving the less than the bare minimum for the Han while giving Romans a large estimate.

No need to talk about Needham anymore or flawed equations, as you are no stranger to them, i gave my position on this earlier, 5000t is too low, rather concentrate on definitively proving your points on how iron production was larger.

Then why bother posting a half assed wiki link and expect people to believe it out of ignorance.

What primary sources are you offering? All i see as your source are a bunch of squares, not even a link.

You need to stop with condecension ASAP. I am very friendly for now as i am still giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not a 50 center (although im leaning that you are and Grand Historian is just a handle meant to intimidate, as we will see below) who gets paid to glorify the middle kingdom. This can change very soon, and i can be very nasty. Accompanied with links which you seem to be missing. A sneak preview is below.

Mate, let's not forget, you picked the equations from which you deduced output tonnage from a "rough look at Wagner's numbers". He even admits he hasn't really counted all that well and adds "I made no pretense that this was anything more than just an estimate." It hasn't escaped my attention that there was no such disclaimer when you were refering the same numbers.

ancient industry - Page 4 - Historum - History Forums post #36, dated 2012, a full year from the recycled wisdom you decided to distribute from the Chinese history forum.

Smoke and mirrors so far mate, eerily reminiscent of 50 centers. Do better, use less words like incompetent, fail to realize. And then to be caught using some rough cut numbers presenting it as gospel, tsk tsk, extrapolating them to cover the whole of China while screaming about extrapolations of Roman Britain output covering whole empire, tsk, tsk, tsk being named Grand Historian in light of all that fixing of data presented tsk tsk tsk.....i'd say you're the only one here who fails to realize something.

Next up, dismantling the myth of 100.000 workers per furnace/office. Although, if you take a read on the forum i quoted, in that thread you will find it's already done, by the same sinophile that came up with those equations.
I'll enlighten you in my next post about this. If needed, we'll see if you come to your senses in your next reply. As a hint, i will know about the numbers of employed (not really, slaves and convicts) through records of rebellions at various iron offices.

There's nothing enlightening you can offer you have no command of written vernacular or classical Chinese.(ie your computer renders the text as squares).

If I was a Sinophile there's far worse I can say unfortunately for you I don't glean my information from wikis.

Unfortunately I'm not paid for refuting poorly written wiki articles,if you don't have an argument then don't bother with ad hominems.

If the quote from the Hanshu I posted is incorrect then it is incorrect I'm not going to beat a dead horse for the sake of continuing the argument.

I have great respect for ancient Chinese, when i was a kid i had a couple of books from Asia, folk tales, a Chinese, Japanese and a Korean one, full of lovely stories with life lessons.

However, the modern Chinese, at least the ones here with an exception here and there...LOL! I understand they need to eat and that's why they post such easily debunked stories, but still.....a little less history revision would be nice.
The problem here is they actually think (and have been instructed to disseminate this opinion) they were once this awesome civilization above all rest and nothing like it ever existed before and that now they are returning to that status. I bet they also have wet dreams how they will replace the vassal attitude of neighbouring states vis a vis ancient China with a vassal attitude of much of the countries in the world.

You don't have any respect for China,you engage in asinine trolling not much better than either TheTruth or MarkusS.

How is it historical revisionism to question the methodology of deriving Han dynasty iron production?

Both the Eastern Han and the Roman empire were superpowers in their relative location,there's no need to diminish one over the other in order to stroke your ego.

 

[Grand Historian]

^ ^ Audio, TheTruth and MarkusS are all ethnic Indians or the derivatives.



He's not Italian, but Indian-related. I pointed it out a year ago at his very beginning.

Whether or not someone is ethnically Indian has no pertinence to this thread,jingoism and stupidity exists in all kinds of people.

There are people participating that are honestly ignorant and post outdated information while others either post comments to inflame or make themselves feel superior.

 

[Speeder 2]

Whether or not someone is ethnically Indian has no pertinence to this thread,jingoism and stupidity exists in all kinds of people.

There are people participating that are honestly ignorant and post outdated information while others either post comments to inflame or make themselves feel superior.

People can be ignorant on one or some or many things before being pointed out by others;

Yet persistantly keeping this degree of "ignorance" afterwards on the same issues every time and each time is due to reasons far beyond just limited knowledge or attitude, but having an obvious axe to grind. Keeping beating the dead horses for them therefore has lost its very meaning and the question at a more fundamental level you then need to ask is why so.

"to inflame or make themselves feel superior", or merely and honestly telling things as they really are as always have been and most likely will be.

 

[Grand Historian]

People can be ignorant on one or some or many things before being pointed out by others;

Yet persistantly keeping this degree of "ignorance" afterwards on the same issues every time and each time is due to reasons far beyond just limited knowledge or attitude, but having an obvious axe to grind. Keeping beating the dead horses for them therefore has lost its very meaning and the question at a more fundamental level you then need to ask is why so.

"to inflame or make themselves feel superior", or merely and honestly telling things as they really are as always have been and most likely will be.

My definition of ignorance is just posting whatever they see first and not questioning its veracity until being called out on.

What I don't understand is why you claim that a troll is Indian when they're clearly not.

 

[DeVice]

Han army will definitely defeat the Roman legionnaire, even before the clash with swords.

Han main weapon is armor-piercing powerful crossbow, that will destroy Roman shield and armor from far away.

From the weapon adoption, we know who is stronger, as Roman later will adopt Han's crossbow, instead Han's adopt Roman's gladius.


In cavalry, Han use stirrup that revolutionaire the cavalry warfare worldwide.

 

[MarkusS]

Go back to driving cruise ships to pay off your eternal and mounting debts. China certainly had running water where they needed it unless you think agriculture can work in deserts (which much of China is) without human intervention. Most Romans lived in dung-filled huts with only the very richest living in expensive homes.

You don´t make yourself bigger when you show bad education. In the roman empire we had running water in evry house. Even with water pipes. There were pipes for hot and cold water and gigantic aquaduci which transported water from 1000 of km away. And nope, most romans did live in brick houses. The rich ones on marble villas. There is a reason why rome conquered the world...and china ended as 3rd world country. I don´t talk bad about China. I find it quite interesting. My ancestors are great enough that i don´t feel the need to belittle others to make them look bigger. Yours must be incredible small then.

Italy's IQ is quite high, among the highest in Europe and the region. China's is still higher.

Then it seems IQ is no guarantee for sucess.

Italy = Ancient Roma ? lol,
obviously, you dont have common sence of Europe. You now even need an Asian to tell you that most Italians are the descendant of Germans(Lombards, Ostrogoths and Franks) and Berbers. Roman Citizen? Go blow yourself, Bulgarians and Romanian have purer blood, even some Turks are purer than your are. You Italians are only taking up their home, and stolen their glory. Moreover, you Italians suck now, lost all of your ancestors' traits, left only gays and daffodils. As regards Roman history, go to your library and suck some knowlege first, dont show your shamelessness here!

Show a scource for that. A genetic data file for example. Should be easy to find. So try it. In europe we do science. That means we place a question and then provide an answer with data. You lack the data. So your words are what they are: rubbish.

 

[Audio]

You don't seem to realize both "stats" are guesstimates in which Needham severely underestimated Chinese production while the stat given for the Romans is derived off an area known producing metals.

So basically you're comparing wrong time periods while giving the less than the bare minimum for the Han while giving Romans a large estimate.


Then why bother posting a half assed wiki link and expect people to believe it out of ignorance.


There's nothing enlightening you can offer you have no command of written vernacular or classical Chinese.(ie your computer renders the text as squares).

If I was a Sinophile there's far worse I can say unfortunately for you I don't glean my information from wikis.

Unfortunately I'm not paid for refuting poorly written wiki articles,if you don't have an argument then don't bother with ad hominems.

If the quote from the Hanshu I posted is incorrect then it is incorrect I'm not going to beat a dead horse for the sake of continuing the argument.


You don't have any respect for China,you engage in asinine trolling not much better than either TheTruth or MarkusS.

How is it historical revisionism to question the methodology of deriving Han dynasty iron production?

Both the Eastern Han and the Roman empire were superpowers in their relative location,there's no need to diminish one over the other in order to stroke your ego.

Yo, Grand Historian, taking numbers from an amateur forum poster and presenting it as truth. At least i presented numbers from a distinguished scholar. This is then what you're paid for isn't it?

My definition of ignorance is just posting whatever they see first and not questioning its veracity until being called out on.

How much did you check those equations? You yourself are an ignorant, following on your own definition.

If I was a Sinophile

I never said you are (although you most certainly are, but i wasn't talking about you), just that you got the equations (best guesses actually) from a sinophile on another forum. The same sinophile then provided me with some clues in which direction i am to search if i want to disprove another one of your myths, ie 100.000 employed per iron office.

You don't have any respect for China

When you stop masquerading you will see some of that respect. As it is now, it is buried under layers of disgust due to, well, dishonesty, to put it mildly. See below what i wrote to Speeder.

Why would they do that??

Honestly, i came here to troll 50 centers like you. i wanted to see the repression of Chinese opinion shapers, the lies, the deceit. This provided numerous hours of fun, augmented by some of the rather crazy pseudo Islamists and their threats on how west will burn etc etc....

What I don't understand is why you claim that a troll is Indian when they're clearly not.

For many Chinese, if on this forum you even look at China nonfavourably, you're automatically an Indian. And as i have looked at China and claims of Chinese here many times quite critically (read unfavourably to the narrative how everything in China is great) i am quite apparently, Indian to the bone.

This is an escape mechanism for the less intelligent. Speeder is one of them.

Now, for some ontopic, i ask you to provide me some new reading material about recent excavations in regards to iron mining, smelters, furnaces in China, if you can. If not, is no problem, i will not hold it against you, but if you will, and the material has more weight than rehashing forum posts, you will see i have a very open mind and am not afraid to admit i was wrong (if i really was). It can be squares, as long as it's a link i can click, the page will translate itself.

 

[Audio]

Ave Helvetia

Don´t argue with them. The chinese today are not the chinese of the past. They are basicly mongols. You know mongols? The mongols we romans kicked out of europe.

lol Helvetia, haven't heard this in a long time.

As for the Chinese, they're just insecure. With time that will pass, and they will be able to speak not just about what was or is great in China, but also about the other half.

 

[MarkusS]

lol Helvetia, haven't heard this in a long time.

As for the Chinese, they're just insecure. With time that will pass, and they will be able to speak not just about what was or is great in China, but also about the other half.

Its a"minority complex". China has no great past. Most times it was a cleptocracy. Ruled from a despot and one billion poors. The lack of individualism is also the main reason why you have no renaissance there and no industrialisation. It had to be introduced from the west. I don´t know why, but chinese culture has zero ability to attract others. Its isolated culture. While rome conquered the world, created the basic system of humanity, countless global languages (spanish, italian, french just to name a few) China simply...created China. Its a very closed society and culture.

Now look at the current situation. Chinese see their old empire, which was completly destroyed and the last remnants crushed in Maos cultural revolution. China had become a colony of the west and even Japan.

It needed to import western technology and ideologies (communism and capitalism) to prosper. Now you see nationalistic chinese here, using western technologies, writing with western (latin) letters in a western language. All this build on the ruins of their roots. That causes dramatic conflicts. Their spiritual world does not fit with reality.

This goes so far that chinese women try to look like western women. They stretch their legs, color their hair blonde and even have facial surgery. Do you see anyone on europe who has a surgery to look chinese?

I believe chinese should concentrate on what they are and not on others.

 

[Audio]

I don´t know why, but chinese culture has zero ability to attract others. Its isolated culture.

They did not want to attract anyone. The emperors of old have in their divine wisdom decreed that China is selfsufficient and that outside influence is unwanted. They lost the empire soon after or at least some portion of it, and a lot of sovereignty.

And you are wrong, China does have a great past, just the hubris of their rulers has cost them quite a lot.

 

[MarkusS]

They did not want to attract anyone. The emperors of old have in their divine wisdom decreed that China is selfsufficient and that outside influence is unwanted. They lost the empire soon after or at least some portion of it, and a lot of sovereignty.

And you are wrong, China does have a great past, just the hubris of their rulers has cost them quite a lot.

I´m not wrong. A past that is forgotten and dead is lost in the future.

 

[atatwolf]

The Han defeated the Huns, who burned Rome.

Turco-Mongols never took Rome but they took all of China without a sweat.

 

[Audio]

I´m not wrong. A past that is forgotten and dead is lost in the future.

Well, they tryin' hard to bring that past to glory again....this whole thread and it's false facts is a manifestation of that effort.

Imho you should not be so dismissive....white ppl didn't get to the top of the chain by looking away when some others had something they could use.

 

[Aepsilons]

They did not want to attract anyone. The emperors of old have in their divine wisdom decreed that China is selfsufficient and that outside influence is unwanted. They lost the empire soon after or at least some portion of it, and a lot of sovereignty.

And you are wrong, China does have a great past, just the hubris of their rulers has cost them quite a lot.

That is the dichotomy of Western culture (Roman inspired) with Eastern (Confucian inspired). The West cherished individualism, multicultural dynamism, ergo the Romans were so quick to adapt some elements of religious customs of conquered peoples. We see this in the cults of Isis (an Egyptian goddess of the river Nile), the adoption of divinity of Rulers; the divinity of Pharaoh was adopted in regards to the Roman Emperor vis a vis the deification of Julius Caesar as Deus Ilius after his assassination at the Capitoline Steps.There was a culture of multicultural bounty in Rome, whereas China's society and most of the Confucian East has verily much appreciated social cohesion, collectivism and unitary determinism. Contextually speaking the Romans conjectured on an external locus of control whereas the Confucian East primarily espoused the importance of internal locus of control.


Regards,

 

[atatwolf]

Plus Atilla never burnt down Rome. The Romans bought off the Huns.