Removal Of Autocannon GSH 23 / 30 From The JF 17:--

[lastofthepatriots]

We should also remove air bags out of our cars, and throw away emergency packs from all commercial flights while we're at it.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there was no other way I could articulate my thoughts on this topic.

 

[princefaisal]

For dedicated squadron of JF-17 in air-to ground role, its better to replace the gun with Aselson pod.

 

[Hassan Guy]

I think the guys over at the AHQ are much more well informed to make such a decision.

 

[MastanKhan]

We should also remove air bags out of our cars, and throw away emergency packs from all commercial flights while we're at it.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there was no other way I could articulate my thoughts on this topic.

Hi,

Air bags are active every day saving lives----emergency packs work in aircraft accidents on regular basis---.

With modern technology---air bags are getting more advanced and active.

Steering airbags have evolved into curtain airbags as well---this is a modern progression from active seat belts----.

A modern day air to air missile is a progression of technology from a machine gun.

It basically is a very large bullet with tracking and target locking technology that travels at a very high speed---over a long distance and over the years its ability to acquire and engage targets has grown 1000 times.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Hi,

That is not an intelligent post----.

Air bags are active every day saving lives----emergency packs work in aircraft accidents on regular basis---.

With modern technology---air bags are getting more advanced and active.

Steering airbags have evolved into curtain airbags as well---this is a modern progression from active seat belts----.

A modern day air to air missile is a progression of technology from a machine gun.

It basically is a very large bullet with tracking and target locking technology that travels at a very high speed---over a long distance and over the years its ability to acquire and engage targets has grown 1000 times.

I understand where you are coming from sir, but at the same time you are only contemplating linear-conditioned scenarios without taking into consideration the many variables of what If's. That's just my humble opinion. We can agree to disagree.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Once new engine comes into JF17 Block 3, the hardpoints can be increased by natural means

 

[MastanKhan]

I understand where you are coming from sir, but at the same time you are only contemplating linear-conditioned scenarios without taking into consideration the many variables of what If's. That's just my humble opinion. We can agree to disagree.

Hi,

What I am saying here is that if the overall variables are reduced---you have a better chance of controlling the situation under controlled guidelines---.

You have to take into consideration the timeline and the availability of fuel as well.

 

[The SC]

It will be possible if all fighter planes get rid of their canons, otherwise , you just add a deadly vulnerability to your aircraft, lets assume you have spent all your missiles in BVR as well as WVR, and you try to retreat back to your base, with an adversary who is faster than you and has a canon while knowing you do not have one, you are as good as some kebab..
The same in the case of hand to hand combat, when one has a side gun, and the other does not, it just becomes a gun to hand combat and it is obvious who will win it..

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hi,

It is abut time that the Paf remove the machine gun from its newly built fighter aircraft---the JF17---use that position for a much needed hard point and possibly add a conformal fuel tank to hold some extra fuel where the bullets and the loading mechanism is taking up the space.

The USAF has not had a machine gun engagement in the last 40 years with an other air force---.

It does not want to have a machine gun engagement with an enemy aircraft at all---. Flying behind the enemy at 100 yards back with guns blazing in your 100---200 millions dollar aircraft and ready to fly thru the debris field of the target aircraft would not be a pleasant experience for the pilot or the aircraft.

Today's pilots would be more inclined on launching their missiles from bvr---or from wvr and then bugging off the arena to come back and fight another day.

There is no reason to pitch your 100 million dollars aircraft against a 30-50 million aircraft and allow it a 50 / 50 advantage---where as it did not have any prior to that---.

For those who are expecting this to happen---are just waging their bets without putting their lives at the stake---. If one was to wager his life on a machine gun combat between a superior aircraft and an inferior aircraft---there would be no naysayers anymore.

The machine gun pod can be used as a much need hard point for other accessories and sensors---and the amount of space taken by the belt and the bullets and the mountings can be much purposefully used with some extra electronics gadgets which could give exctra protection to the aircraft or increase its offensive capabilities---.

The machine gun maybe used as an option for ground strike missions---but for general use---just take it away---.

Learn to fly different---learn to fly without a machine gun---use the time to change the mindset of the air combat pilot and train him different.

Sorry but this is a dumb idea and many have rightly pointed out the US example with their F-4s in Vietnam. When you think you don't need that last line of defence you are handing your adversary a needless advantadge, WVR is going to be the norm in future aircombat where BVRAAMs are evaded using EW systems and the merge is inevitable, in that situation can you afford to not have a few hundred rounds of 20mm/30mm cannon rounds? What happens when all WVRAAMs have been expended? As it stands the JF-17 does not have a HMD allowing for off-boresight shots, taking away the cannon would make it an even weaker WVR fighter.

Furthermore, you haven't really explained what the benefits would be to justify such a crippling step.

Furthermore, as an IN naval aviator pointed out- when taking down a slow moving UAV/target WVR why waste a million dollar rocket, roll in and drill their brains out for a fe cents worth of brass.

Rafael has 30 mm GIAT cannon, Su-30 Mk1

*Rafale

** Su-30MKI

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well people assume that all the battles are decided by BVR that is not always the case. The counter measures on planes keep getting better with each year.

If there is a large skrimish 10 vs 10 or 15 vs 15
sometimes a chance presents itself , when your opponent is so close , that you really don't want to waste your missile on that poor fella

For a good pilot that just means preserving his missile and making a easy silent kill with Gun


If you don't have a cannon , you might just watch the other guy do some acrobatics around your craft

 

[Hammad ur Rehman]

It's not a machine gun but a 23mm calibre cannon.

PAF will never let go it's tradition of having a cannon on any combat aircraft no matter how sophisticated it is.

WVR combat is an inherent part of PAF's doctrine & will never drop it.

So forget about it's removal & find other ways to put more fuel or electronics on it.

 

[That Guy]

Hi,

Yes I know what happened--- i was old enough to read that news and understand the significance of that action happening at that time---.

Most of you guys just quote that without understanding and comprehending the changes that the weapons technology has gone thru.

Please don't patronize me, it's very rude.

I know exactly what happened, there are plenty of historical records of what happened.

While it is true that AAM were still in their infancy, and weren't very accurate, a similar problem exists today. Anti-AAM systems on modern aircraft limit the already limited ability of AAMs to get a successful hit on a target. Having a canon is good, because once you run out of missiles, you need to be able to defend yourself, if you end up in a dog fight.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Cannon is a good option to have for a multi role aircraft and also useful when the enemy is next door neighbor the chances of wvr dogfight increase. By removing cannon the gain is one 250 kg bomb and do not believe it is worth the loss of cannon. A pilot can do more with cannon.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

The F-35A is also armed with a GAU-22/A, a four-barrel version of the 25 mm GAU-12 Equalizer cannon.

F-22, has an internally mounted M61A2 Vulcan 20 mm rotary cannon, embedded in the right wing root with the muzzle covered by a retractable door to maintain stealth.

The Typhoon also carries a specially developed variant of the Mauser BK-27 27mm cannon.

 

[mdcp]

Can't we develop special type like magnetic balloons for air defense or new innovation to surprise enemy in battlefield.