Religious scholars vows to resist liberalisation of pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Bhai you are asking me to choose my faith over Pakistan. You've said what comes first and I tell you my love/loyality for ALLAH and his NABI (as'salathu was'salaam) comes before my love/loyality for my parents and anything, and everything else.

We are not talking about choosing which car is better; rather talking about hell and heaven!

Keep that in your personal life - I don't give a rat's arse whether you go to heaven or hell and I don't want you, the State or anyone else looking at my personal life to determine whether I go to heaven or hell.

This is a simple concept, which is why Western forms of government (that separate religion from the government) are in fact the closest to an Islamic system of governance. Unless my actions have a tangible negative impact on another individual's, the government has no need to interfere in the lives of citizens.

As a Pakistani, I obey the law of the land. We don't vote in nizam al-Kufr. This is why NO REAL Ulima Ikram vote or partake in the corrupt anti-Islamic system. With respect to JUI and Tahirul Qadari, we know who and what they are!

It's your choice - don't vote, but then don't threaten others over blasphemy being Ahmadi etc either. Live your personal life as you wish to (provided no one else is tangibly impacted) and let others change the government and their lives as they wish.

Bhai jaan don't make silly statements and insulting our beloved Ulima-ikram. Yes, we want peaceful transfer of power to the Ulima Ikram. I pray for that day for the people to be more knowledgeable of their faith.

Without participating in the current democratic system you can't have a 'peaceful transfer of power'.

Again, let me reiterate as it seems people here are wearing blinkers; we want PEACEFUL transfer of power and remain patient until Allah gives the keys of power to the Ulima Ikram.

Again, the blinkers are on your eyes - the current system is in place and cannot be changed without amendments to the constitution which cannot occur without politicians (who want to change the system) being elected by the people - this means either your ulema participate in the democratic system in place now or stick to mosques and stop whining about the urgently needed reforms in Blasphemy laws and an end to discriminatory and morally repugnant restrictions on Ahmadis.

Tell me who can achieve PEACE with Hindustan? Tell me who can solve the IOK and Siachen problem? Only the Ulima Ikram can do this.

Please provide specifics on how exactly the 'Ulema' will achieve these goals.

The secularists and fanatical liberals have ruined the country for 70 years and there is a lot of mess that needs cleaning up. People are poor, no law and order, Pakistan's image ruined (called, Pakistanis would sell their mother for a $1000 and now for a dinner), no education for the poor, no electricity, wide-spread and open corruption.

The religious chest-beaters have done far more damage to this country in the last decade, through terrorism, suicide bombings and the spreading of hatred and intolerance, than the secular or liberal class ever did, or could ever do.

Secularists have done a lot of damage to the land of the pure and filled their own pockets. Strange they go into gormant poor and come out rich.

The people in government have primarily damaged Pakistan economically and in development - the religious right & Ulema have done far deeper damage to Pakistan's soul - they have spread hatred and intolerance. Even ZA Bhutto's decision to impose morally repugnant restrictions on Ahmadi's was done to satisfy the Jahul 'Ulema Ikram', as was the enactment of Blasphemy laws.

The theft of money from corrupt politicians can be overcome far more quickly than the Ulema's spreading of hatred and intolerance.

Yes, it does. If you're not happy who you are then you're a slave of those you follow. We are salves of Allah and not to any nation or man.

It does nothing - to be a good human being (which none of these Ulema are given their support for a terrorist murder called Mustafa Qadri) does not require wearing a 'Dish dasha' or 'Shawlar Qamiz' - it requires respect for all human beings regardless of their beliefs. Your 'Ulema' have over the decades shown no such respect, and are even now (as shown in the OP) supporting terrorism, hatred and intolerance.

I will wear my jeans and t-shirts and sleep well at night knowing that I at least am not responsible for supporting terrorists, hatred and intolerance. You can

In Pakistan we don't have religion playing any part in gormant. Pakistan is a secular country.

The morally repugnant laws against Ahmadis were passed to satisfy 'Ulema Ikram'.
The morally repugnant laws requiring a Pakistani to declare their religion on their passport/ID were passed to satisfy 'Ulema Ikram'
The morally repugnant laws on Blasphmey were passed to satisfy 'Ulema Ikram'
The latitude given to religious institutions to violate laws and harass innocent people in Pakistan is done to satisfy these same morally repugnant 'Ulema Ikram'.
Allowing Ulema Ikram to spread hatred and intolerance through their sermons mosques and madrassa's is done to satisfy these 'Ulema Ikram'.

What Pakistan need to do is to lock Mullah inside their seminaries if they want a progressive and least violent future.

I may disagree with Hoodhboy on a lot of issues, but on the issue of regulating and reigning in the hatred and intolerance spread by the 'Mosque & Madrassa Establishment' he is absolutely correct:

Mosque versus state - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

 

[Jaanbaz]

Ulema kalam are bad for the environment, just like cows, they release methane gas. Its okay to get rid of some of them to save the environment and our noses.

 

[My-Analogous]

What the hell is "extremist liberals"? From what I understand, you seem to want the persecution of minorities.

That is the correct word but you fail to understand if there is a word called Radical Muslim then why not extremist liberals?.
By the way Islam like moderates and Islam is moderates religion.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

It's your choice - don't vote, but then don't threaten others over blasphemy being Ahmadi etc either. Live your personal life as you wish to (provided no one else is tangibly impacted) and let others change the government and their lives as they wish.

Not sure how the believers not voting has any connection with the Qadiyanies, or the blasphemy law? Bhai, are you feeling fas-class?

the current system is in place and cannot be changed without amendments to the constitution which cannot occur without politicians (who want to change the system) being elected by the people -

Ulema ikram don't recognise the ayn! The awam is made fool of with some aspects of Islam and calling it ''Islamic'' Republic of Pakistan. I'm the president of Pakistan. Does that make me the president? No!

Please provide specifics on how exactly the 'Ulema' will achieve these goals.

Ulema Ikram are people of few words, but heavy in actions. Step aside and give the keys to the Ulema Ikram and you'll see within 1 year IOK, Siachen and peace with Hindustan will prevail. Don't you worry yourself with the specifics, actions will speak louder than words.

The religious chest-beaters have done far more damage to this country in the last decade, through terrorism, suicide bombings and the spreading of hatred and intolerance, than the secular or liberal class ever did, or could ever do.

Maybe you have no honor, we do! When an Amrka says a Pakistan would sell his mother for a $1000, and now for a dinner, it bothers us, EVEN though they're not directing it at us. The leadership represents us indirectly. The thieves who have looted the the nation have no right to lecture the Ulima ikram. Peoples hatred is borne from poverty, disparity in rich and poor, and lack of justice when the rich can get away with murder literally. Allow foreigners to bomb and kills its citizens and Pakistanis murdered on the streets of Lahore and the Murderer walks away freely. A Pakistani can never do the same in their country and we'll see if their diplomatic immunity will protect them. A sister can be raped and be accused of lewd behavior. The liberal sellouts with their fake patriotism have sold the nation to the point when a Pakistanis lives mean nothing. I've been told by Pakistani are harrased at airports and this is ALL liberals doing. Thieves and cheap who have a price and can be bought.

The rest of your comments are more about the ''poor'' qadiyannies. Good, our country asks them to declare their disbelief. Like we have to obey law of the land, so should they. There are no special treatment for anyone. If you don't like living in the land of the pure, you know where the door is and leave the passport on the way out.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

If there was such a thing that Islam will not allow its followers to enter in scientific revolutions there would have been no muslim scientist hundreds of years ago. There are many sayings from Prophet Muhammad PBUH encouraging muslims to seek knowledge whenever possible wherever possible.


Lemme see the proofs of what you are claiming, no of casualties etc. And since you are convinced that they are equal to TTP lets name 10 convicted terrorists from Ahamadis. And lets see how many sunni or shias were killed!!


and buffaloes fly, pigs lay eggs and Sun rises from west

Lets talk about now. We know Islamic world had many scientists who questioned the very existence of God. The question I am asking is, if its possible now?! Say a scientist from Arabia or even Pakistan declares themselves atheist and questions the presence of God and Islam. What will Pakistan do:? File a Blasphemy case?!

 

[Vapnope]

Say a scientist from Arabia or even Pakistan declares themselves atheist and questions the presence of God and Islam. What will Pakistan do:? File a Blasphemy case?!

You see there is a difference between Islam and two mentioned countries above. If muslims of earlier era could question it while practicing Islam i don't see a reason why they can't do it now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is the correct word but you fail to understand if there is a word called Radical Muslim then why not extremist liberals?.
By the way Islam like moderates and Islam is moderates religion.

Radical Muslims - end result is terrorist bombings, mob lynchings, chaos, destabilization and a State and society that belongs in the medieval ages.

Extremist Liberals - End result is societies like Turkey under Mustafa Kamal or France with its restrictions on religious symbols. Some restrictions on practicing religion, yes, but also development, modernization, peace, security, justice and freedom of thought for the most part.

Between the 2, any rational person would take extremist liberalism over radical religion any day.

The ideal State and system would be something in between the 2 above, something along the lines of the US currently.

Not sure how the believers not voting has any connection with the Qadiyanies, or the blasphemy law? Bhai, are you feeling fas-class?

Are you and these 'Ulema' in favor of repealing the Blasphemy laws and restrictions on Ahmadi's?

Ulema ikram don't recognise the ayn! The awam is made fool of with some aspects of Islam and calling it ''Islamic'' Republic of Pakistan. I'm the president of Pakistan. Does that make me the president? No!

If you don't recognize the constitution and refuse to participate in the democratic system to elect representatives to change the constitution, then how exactly do you expect to 'peacefully change the system'?

Ulema Ikram are people of few words, but heavy in actions. Step aside and give the keys to the Ulema Ikram and you'll see within 1 year IOK, Siachen and peace with Hindustan will prevail. Don't you worry yourself with the specifics, actions will speak louder than words.

Describe these actions please. If you can't even present the outlines of the plan, then there is no plan, other than spreading pedophilia and terrorism under the guise of 'puberty==adulthood' and 'murdering and terrorizing people over blasphemy and apostasy == sunnah and Jannah'

Maybe you have no honor, we do! When an Amrka says a Pakistan would sell his mother for a $1000, and now for a dinner, it bothers us, EVEN though they're not directing it at us. The leadership represents us indirectly. The thieves who have looted the the nation have no right to lecture the Ulima ikram. Peoples hatred is borne from poverty, disparity in rich and poor, and lack of justice when the rich can get away with murder literally. Allow foreigners to bomb and kills its citizens and Pakistanis murdered on the streets of Lahore and the Murderer walks away freely. A Pakistani can never do the same in their country and we'll see if their diplomatic immunity will protect them. A sister can be raped and be accused of lewd behavior. The liberal sellouts with their fake patriotism have sold the nation to the point when a Pakistanis lives mean nothing. I've been told by Pakistani are harrased at airports and this is ALL liberals doing. Thieves and cheap who have a price and can be bought.

I would rather have a corrupt, inept and thieving leadership represent me than a leadership like your 'Ulema' that represents terrorism, hate-mongering, discrimination and intolerance.

The rest of your comments are more about the ''poor'' qadiyannies. Good, our country asks them to declare their disbelief. Like we have to obey law of the land, so should they. There are no special treatment for anyone. If you don't like living in the land of the pure, you know where the door is and leave the passport on the way out.

Obey the law of the land? But you said you don't follow the constitution and the system it has set up, so why all of a sudden, when it comes to laws that terrorize and institutionalize discrimination and prejudice against millions of Ahmadi's, are you so strongly in favor of 'following the law of the land'?

And unlike you and your Ulema's hypocrisy, I am willing to work within the system (whether in the US or Pakistan) to attempt to influence people and public opinion in repealing morally repugnant laws such as those against the Ahmadis and Blasphemy.

You've now declared support for both blasphemy laws, terrorism by the likes of Mustafa Qadri and terrorism and discrimination against Ahmadi's. You and your 'Ulema' offer nothing but a diseased, intolerant, hate-filled, extremist and violent mindset to society and Pakistan.

If muslims of earlier era could question it while practicing Islam i don't see a reason why they can't do it now.

Because the 'Ulema' and their supporters mentioned in the OP have basically distorted Islam and managed to get their poisonous views that discriminate and restrict free speech and open debate in society into the constitution.

 

[mpk1988]

Just a light comment to defuse the tension.. It took me about 5 mins to realize what Gormant was..

 

[Zibago]

Just a light comment to defuse the tension.. It took me about 5 mins to realize what Gormant was..

Government desified version

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

You see there is a difference between Islam and two mentioned countries above. If muslims of earlier era could question it while practicing Islam i don't see a reason why they can't do it now.

That's not exactly my question. However I do not wish to proceed further

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I think they probably meant modernization because all they think of liberalism is immoral sex, drink wine etc

 

[Samandri]

Then you are traitors to Pakistan and should be treated like enemies of the State.

Its you who is a traitor, constitutionally speaking you are supposed to bow your head to Allah almighty, not Army-generals

"Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;....."

Refrain from Army-parasti, dont compare status of Police, Army, Railways, WAPDA etc with status of Allah and his Rasool

 

[VCheng]

Its you who is a traitor, constitutionally speaking you are supposed to bow your head to Allah almighty, not Army-generals

"Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;....."

@AgNoStiC MuSliM Now do you see why the Objectives Resolution is the true root of the problem?

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

If you don't recognize the constitution and refuse to participate in the democratic system to elect representatives to change the constitution, then how exactly do you expect to 'peacefully change the system'?

People are more Islamically aware and insha'Allah eventually the Islamic knowledge will rise to the top. It may take another 70 years for the changes to take place, Allah is with those who are patient.

Describe these actions please. If you can't even present the outlines of the plan, then there is no plan, other than spreading pedophilia and terrorism under the guise of 'puberty==adulthood' and 'murdering and terrorizing people over blasphemy and apostasy == sunnah and Jannah'

Because of your Kufr and your comment speak for themselves, mocking Islamic principles. You indeed are a vile and disgusting person.

I would rather have a corrupt, inept and thieving leadership represent me than a leadership

We currently have this system. What you and what you don't want. You can stay in Amrka and let Trump deal with sellouts like you. The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. The people in the land of the pure have suffered more than enough at the hands of those in power.

Obey the law of the land? But you said you don't follow the constitution and the system it has set up, so why all of a sudden, when it comes to laws that terrorize and institutionalize discrimination and prejudice against millions of Ahmadi's, are you so strongly in favor of 'following the law of the land'?

What has accepting the ayn have to do with following the laws? Are you stupid or something! Never have the Ulema Ikram ever said not to obey the law of the land. We have to pay taxes and respect the laws of the land. They have, and I have continuously spoken out against attacks on the deviants that go by the name of ''Ahmadia'', or as we better know them as Qadiyyanies. No one has the right to take the law in their own hands and if they kill one of the deviants, it is murder and need to be punished under the prevailing laws.

And unlike you and your Ulema's hypocrisy, I am willing to work within the system (whether in the US or Pakistan) to attempt to influence people and public opinion in repealing morally repugnant laws such as those against the Ahmadis and Blasphemy.

Try all you like. Qadiyanies who call 1.8bn Muslims Kafir have no business lecturing the Ulima Ikram of hypocrisy. Kafir is a kafir, not judged by the names they go by, but what aqeedah they hold.

 

[That Guy]

They have destroyed the fabric of Pakistani society, they have no right to do anything. These ttp supports are nothing more than criminals and thugs, living in their million dollar mansions, and stealing from the poor.

Forgive me if I don't agree with what those that side with child murderers say.