Refuting feminist Western propaganda and perception of the realities of Saudi Arabian women

[SrNair]

We have no problem as long as it is your internal affairs. But when Saudi Petro Dollars is used to spread this extremist Salafi/Wahabi Islam in our country then it is a problem. Nowadays in some pockets of Kerala these customs have started appearing and we are worried about their spread. We feel that in a plularist society like India such activiites are not required.

Just like you fear the spread of western values we fear the spread of Wahabism





Yes it is true that I would say that Keralites and Indian Muslims go to Saudi Arabia and it is a fact. I was referring to my own position and not any other Indians. I personally will not go to Saudi Arabia with my wife because I and my wife will never be able to follow the rules (which we consider restrictive) If someone else goes and is comfortable in following the fules let them go. No one is stopping them

Brother .
This is none of our concern.Infact this was not even our subject .
If some nut cases spread issues in our nation then it is our duty to curb and punish them.
You dont have to blame others for it.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Brother .
This is none of our concern.Infact this was not even our subject .
If some nut cases spread issues in our nation then it is our duty to curb and punish them.
You dont have to blame others for it.

The imaginary "Wahhabism" is the new bogeyman for all the Muslim hipsters and non-Muslim ones who want to associate all the faults of Muslims and the Muslim world with some movement that occurred 300 years ago in Najd to curb un-Islamic practices such as worshipping trees, stones, graves etc.

So whenever some Muslim in Kerala or Kilimanjaro does something that they either do not like or farts, imaginary "Wahhabism" gets blamed.

Funnily enough WESTERN scholars just 50 years ago compared "Wahhabism" (the name they gave the movement of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab - which was merely a return to traditional Islamic values and practices that were lost in some parts of Najd) to Protestantism and considered it progressive. Funny how times change, lol.

Honestly if some circles in Kerala create trouble it has nothing to do with KSA. It is their own doing. First we even have to define those supposed "problems" that they create.

Anyway I don't know why that troll started blabbering about "Wahhabism", Kerala etc. out of a sudden and other nonsense?

 

[SrNair]

The imaginary "Wahhabism" is the new bogeyman for all the Muslim hipsters and non-Muslim ones who want to associate all the faults of Muslims and the Muslim world with some movement that occurred 300 years ago in Najd to curb un-Islamic practices.

So whenever some Muslim in Kerala or Kilimanjaro does something that they either do not like or farts, imaginary "Wahhabism" gets blamed.

Funnily enough WESTERN scholars just 50 years ago compared "Wahhabism" (the name they gave the movement of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab - which was merely a return to traditional Islamic values and practices that were lost in some parts of Najd) to Protestantism and considered it progressive. Funny how times change, lol.

Even though that 'movement' from Najd was for tradition its byproducts caused or gave a lots of badname to Islam.
I dont know about kilimanjaro.
But we have had some problem in northern Kerala .But now our GoI have enough tie up
with govts in GCC including KSA and that helps us a lot to curb the anti national in our nation.

The imaginary "Wahhabism" is the new bogeyman for all the Muslim hipsters and non-Muslim ones who want to associate all the faults of Muslims and the Muslim world with some movement that occurred 300 years ago in Najd to curb un-Islamic practices such as worshipping trees, stones, graves etc.

So whenever some Muslim in Kerala or Kilimanjaro does something that they either do not like or farts, imaginary "Wahhabism" gets blamed.

Funnily enough WESTERN scholars just 50 years ago compared "Wahhabism" (the name they gave the movement of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab - which was merely a return to traditional Islamic values and practices that were lost in some parts of Najd) to Protestantism and considered it progressive. Funny how times change, lol.

Honestly if some circles in Kerala create trouble it has nothing to do with KSA. It is their own doing. First we even have to define those supposed "problems" that they create.

Anyway I don't know why that troll started blabbering about "Wahhabism", Kerala etc. out of a sudden and other nonsense?

Well that is his own opinion.
You can ignore him

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Even though that 'movement' from Najd was for tradition its byproducts caused or gave a lots of badname to Islam.
I dont know about kilimanjaro.
But we have had some problem in northern Kerala .But now our GoI have enough tie up
with govts in GCC including KSA and that helps us a lot to curb the anti national in our nation.

A movement that originated almost 300 years ago and was confined to mostly 1 geographical area of modern-day KSA cannot be blamed for what occurs 300 years later by people who have nothing to do with this movement or its principles. It is very simple.

All what you guys blame this imaginary "sect" of is strictly banned in KSA.

"Wahhabism" aka Hanbalism is 1 of the 4 traditional Sunni madahib.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanbali

Outside of microscopic differences in interpretation on mostly non-important issues it differs little if anything from the other 3 traditional Sunni madahib that also happen to be found indigenously inside KSA as all other traditional Islamic sects.

That is "Shaf'i, Maliki and Hanafi etc.

Well, I should but he is unfortunately the one derailing this thread.

Anyway I do not know what kind of problems there are in Kerala and what this has to do with KSA but if you elaborated on those problems it would be easier to take a stance.

All those terrorist groups across the world have nothing to do with Hanbalism/"Wahhabism". Hanbalis are some of the most peaceful people out there. They have traditionally also mostly kept out of politics. More than most other Muslim groups.

Here you can read the entire book of Muhammad ibn Al-Wahhab al-Tamimi (he wrote others but this is the most famous one) called "Kitab at-Tauhid".

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/new_muslim/kitab_at_tawheed.pdf

It has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism.

Notice that I am not a Hanbali however it is annoying for 2/3 of Saudi Arabia's population (who are NOT Hanbalis) to be associated with terrorism groups and practices abroad that have nothing to do with Hanbalism.

Why is that MILLIONS of Muslims across the world who are Hanbalis do not cause any problems whatsoever and are indistinguishable from other Muslims? This includes India itself!

 

[T-72]

Western feminists are pro choice.
I.E. noone should interfere with whatever dress they want to wear.

there's also a double standard when it comes to how they view their fellow native conservatives as opposed to ultra conservative Islamic women.

modern western feminism/liberalism = every regressive aspect of Islam gets a pass while they mock their own people for practicing their faith.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

there's also a double standard when it comes to how they view their fellow native conservatives as opposed to ultra conservative Islamic women.

modern western feminism/liberalism = every regressive aspect of Islam gets a pass while they mock their own people for practicing their faith.

You are an Indian so why are you concerned about conservative Westerners? You do not even neighbor the West directly unlike the Arab world. Let alone have as much history in common.

The fact is that BOTH the Western left and right wing are crying. There is no difference between them. Zero. Their goals are the same but their rhetoric is different.

They probably view conservative Hindus and Indians in the EXACT same light. A group of people that I assume that you belong to. If not I find your "wannabe Western conservative"-attitude quite pathetic.

Also define "ultra-conservative" Islamic women? So women who wear a Niqab (vast majority being married women) for instance magically can be put into that categorically just because they are more strict/conservative about their appearance/modesty in public? Despite for instance being highly educated and engaging in the exact same hobbies as some feminist in Sweden.

What you describe does not even exist. To begin with it is not the business of some feminist Dutch (for instance) or conservative Dutch what people outside of Netherlands or Europe do. Secondly there is the aspect of not inciting racial conflicts in diverse nations (most Western European nations). As per MODERN-DAY EUROPEAN values AND LAWS. The same values that welcomed those migrants (from all over the world and all religions and skin colors) to begin with.

KSA is a socially and religiously conservative nation (but otherwise a capitalist society) and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is in fact something to be very proud of in a world where traditional values and culture is under constant threat due to an elite of naive globalists led by mostly the left wing across the world, although mostly the West which is destroying its own culture and has been doing long before any migrants arrived. Today that culture can be summed up in two words. "Democracy" and "money".

The Arab world is the cradle of civilization and was always fiercely independent. We will never abandon our ancient culture, values, traditions etc. BECAUSE foreigners say so. Only when we will like it just like whenever our ancestors abandoned old cultures, traditions and values. It is very simple. We have no intention or need to lick Western "***" on this front or others to become "accepted" by them. Seems that the same thing cannot be said about many Indians, unfortunately but I guess that this is the result of Western colonialism and enslavement. You (acting more Western than the Westerners themselves) are a good example of this. You should rather waste your time defending your OWN peoples culture, tradition and values instead of worrying about outsiders if you care about this aspect to begin with. If you did that I would respect your likes. Otherwise you are an Uncle Tom.

Anyway on many fronts GCC (let alone other regions of the Muslim world) is more progressive than traditional Indian culture or how things are done in rural India where most people live. Religion is not everything in this regard. No need to elaborate on this.

Anyway this whole discussion is absurd. Let time do what it will do and let Western media focus on something else other than propagandizing absurd nonsense about KSA and many parts of the Muslim world. Yes, there is much to improve and nobody claims to be perfect at all but most people, due to the media and not independent thinking or research, are taught deliberate lies which again is used to spread hatred. The same thing they accuse those who do not agree with them of.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You are an Indian so why are you concerned about conservative Westerners? You do not even neighbor the West directly unlike the Arab world. Let alone have as much history in common.

The fact is that BOTH the Western left and right wing are crying. There is no difference between them. Zero. Their goals are the same but their rhetoric is different.

They probably view conservative Hindus and Indians in the EXACT same light. A group of people that I assume that you belong to. If not I find your "wannabe Western conservative"-attitude quite pathetic.

Also define "ultra-conservative" Islamic women? So women who wear a Niqab (vast majority being married women) for instance magically can be put into that categorically just because they are more strict/conservative about their appearance/modesty in public? Despite for instance being highly educated and engaging in the exact same hobbies as some feminist in Sweden.

What you describe does not even exist. To begin with it is not the business of some feminist Dutch (for instance) or conservative Dutch what people outside of Netherlands or Europe do. Secondly there is the aspect of not inciting racial conflicts in diverse nations (most Western European nations). As per MODERN-DAY EUROPEAN values AND LAWS. The same values that welcomed those migrants (from all over the world and all religions and skin colors) to begin with.

KSA is a socially and religiously conservative nation (but otherwise a capitalist society) and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is in fact something to be very proud of in a world where traditional values and culture is under constant threat due to an elite of naive globalists led by mostly the left wing across the world, although mostly the West which is destroying its own culture and has been doing long before any migrants arrived. Today that culture can be summed up in two words. "Democracy" and "money".

The Arab world is the cradle of civilization and was always fiercely independent. We will never abandon our ancient culture, values, traditions etc. BECAUSE foreigners say so. Only when we will like it just like whenever our ancestors abandoned old cultures, traditions and values. It is very simple. We have no intention or need to lick Western "***" on this front or others to become "accepted" by them. Seems that the same thing cannot be said about many Indians, unfortunately but I guess that this is the result of Western colonialism and enslavement. You (acting more Western than the Westerners themselves) are a good example of this. You should rather waste your time defending your OWN peoples culture, tradition and values instead of worrying about outsiders if you care about this aspect to begin with. If you did that I would respect your likes. Otherwise you are an Uncle Tom.

Anyway on many fronts GCC (let alone other regions of the Muslim world) is more progressive than traditional Indian culture or how things are done in rural India where most people live. Religion is not everything in this regard. No need to elaborate on this.

You assume that everyone in KSA shares Your own view about what should be kept and what should be abolished.
It is everyones business when basic human rights are violated.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

You assume that everyone in KSA shares Your own view about what should be kept and what should be abolished.
It is everyones business when basic human rights are violated.

I don't assume anything. There is indeed a minority that wants to change almost everything. Such groups of people can be found in every country and society. However due to them being a minority they have little power of any kind.

You seem not understand that every country and society in a given time period will have their own system of governance, laws, traditions, values, culture (s) etc. What you don't agree with in Sweden, due to your background as a Swede, upbringing in Sweden etc, is not necessarily something that a Saudi Arabian, Japanese, American or Kenyan disagrees with.

Not all modern-day human rights laws are universal. In fact most of the world do not follow them all. Far from it.

Also you cannot force your will upon people in this day and age as long as they do not harm you or do not engage in serious human rights violations. Say North Korea.

It is not the business of some feminist in Sweden or other "morally superior" crusader to interfere in whether the Saudi Arabian society is ready to allow women to drive on public roads that happen to be some of the most dangerous in a country that happens to have some of the largest geographical distances. In a society where the honor of women is valued very highly and where seeing (in certain circles) the face of an unrelated women can bring shame upon both parties.

You will never understand those things just like we will never understand some of the many absurdities that we see being done in Sweden. Yet despite this we are not lecturing you. Yet you are busy lecturing others. We find that annoying. If you do not understand this, I cannot help you out.

Why don't you worry about the 100's upon 100's MILLIONS of women across the world who are illiterate, who are extremely poor or very poor, who are denied education, women who are used in the adult industry, those used in human trafficking, those who do drugs, the millions upon millions of women alcoholics in the West, abortions etc. instead of PATHETIC (overall) issues such as whether women wear a headscarf or whether they drive themselves or are driven around by family or a private driver. Get your priorities right. Currently the same West has allowed a bloodbath to occur in Syria where 1000's upon 1000's of women (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, women with headscarfs and without) are dying yet your Western media are more worried about how many women where elected during the most recent municipal elections in KSA.

Women in GCC have it much better on almost every front than 90% of all the world's women. They are pampered to a very big extent too which whether I like it or not is typical of Arabian culture.

Your problem is not our religion but the fact that we are different. Even if we followed everything you do or say we would still be seen as different and vice versa. Therefore I do not believe in this uniform culture or some uniform values (outside of fundamental ones). It seems that feminists, liberals etc. in the West have extremely big difficulties accepting this which they eventually will have to do as the world is moving towards my preferred direction. The globalist dream of a uniform culture is not on the rise for once. Feels great for now.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I don't assume anything. There is indeed a minority that wants to change almost everything. Such groups of people can be found in every country and society. However due to them being a minority they have little power of any kind.

You seem not understand that every country and society in a given time period will have their own system of governance, laws, traditions, values, culture (s) etc. What you don't agree with in Sweden, due to your background as a Swede, upbringing in Sweden etc, is not necessarily something that a Saudi Arabian, Japanese, American or Kenyan disagrees with.

Not all modern-day human rights laws are universal. In fact most of the world do not follow them all. Far from it.

Also you cannot force your will upon people in this day and age as long as they do not harm you or do not engage in serious human rights violations. Say North Korea.

It is not the business of some feminist in Sweden or other "morally superior" crusader to interfere in whether the Saudi Arabian society is ready to allow women to drive on public roads that happen to be some of the most dangerous in a country that happens to have some of the largest geographical distances. In a society where the honor of women is valued very highly and where seeing (in certain circles) the face of an unrelated women can bring shame upon both parties.

You will never understand those things just like we will never understand some of the many absurdities that we see being done in Sweden. Yet despite this we are not lecturing you. Yet you are busy lecturing others. We find that annoying. If you do not understand this, I cannot help you out.

Why don't you worry about the 100's upon 100's MILLIONS of women across the world who are illiterate, who are extremely poor or very poor, who are denied education, women who are used in the adult industry, those used in human trafficking, those who do drugs, the millions upon millions of women alcoholics in the West, abortions etc. instead of PATHETIC (overall) issues such as whether women wear a headscarf or whether they drive themselves or are driven around by family or a private driver. Get your priorities right. Currently the same West has allowed a bloodbath to occur in Syria where 1000's upon 1000's of women (Muslims, Christians, Atheists, women with headscarfs and without) are dying yet your Western media are more worried about how many women where elected during the most recent municipal elections in KSA.

Women in GCC have it much better on almost every front than 90% of all the world's women. They are pampered to a very big extent too which whether I like it or not is typical of Arabian culture.

Your problem is not our religion but the fact that we are different. Even if we followed everything you do or say we would still be seen as different and vice versa. Therefore I do not believe in this uniform culture or some uniform values (outside of fundamental ones). It seems that feminists, liberals etc. in the West have extremely big difficulties accepting this which they eventually will have to do as the world is moving towards my preferred direction. The globalist dream of a uniform culture is not on the rise for once. Feels great for now.

It is not a question of forcing our will, we reserve the right to criticize,
when we believe basic human rights are violated.
It is really up to the recipient, whether they care if we respect them or not.

KSA has chosen to be a member if the UN, and should then respect the UN bill of human rights.
If that requires changing old habits, so be it. Annoying or not.

There are a lot of problems in the world and there is a lot of people involved in each problem.
Does not mean that other problems should not be addressed.
Women beeing repressed is not a minor problem here.

KSA/Gulf States together with Iran are the main reasons the Syrian war is still ongoing.

 

[Zibago]

Saudi Arab is a conservative country it will change at its own pace and its changing for the better slowly

 

[Saif al-Arab]

It is not a question of forcing our will, we reserve the right to criticize,
when we believe basic human rights are violated.
It is really up to the recipient, whether they care if we respect them or not.

KSA has chosen to be a member if the UN, and should then respect the UN bill of human rights.
If that requires changing old habits, so be it. Annoying or not.

There are a lot of problems in the world and there is a lot of people involved in each problem.
Does not mean that other problems should not be addressed.
Women beeing repressed is not a minor problem here.

KSA/Gulf States together with Iran are the main reasons the Syrian war is still ongoing.

You can voice your opinion, criticize and do whatever you want to. Similar to how "we" can do about your country (ies) and societies. I am not against the exchange of opinions or dialogue. In fact I support it.

However it seems that you do not understand the key issue (s) here. I thought I did a good job explaining this to you but I guess that I was wrong.

That is not how it works in the real world.

"Voters and abstainers in the Plenary session. In green countries that voted in favour, in orange those who abstained. In black, countries which failed to abstain or vote. In grey, countries which where not part of UN at the time of voting."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Almost every convention is violated by signatories across the world. Anyway take a look at that map. Most UN members (all countries) are not signatories.

I gave you a few dozen examples of 100 times more serious issues that the world is facing and the West (NOT GCC) but you insist on wasting time on pathetic and largely irrelevant topics that will eventually change in the nearby future. Of course any sane person should point out such a hypocrisy as those feminists, liberals and others, who pretend to care about those issues, are not showing a similar interest in much more serious and numerous problems. It makes no sense.

They have played a role but the example of Syria was used to highlight the plight of women (a real one, a one that is about death and life) that is largely ignored. I guess nonsense articles about the Muslim world is a more pressing need.

Anyway there is really no point to discuss this as I have said everything that is needed to be said in this discussion and repeating myself won't help anyone.

Look at the first post in this thread and those that I posted. You can see all the "oppression" there.

Here you can see more of it.

University graduates (most Uni graduates in KSA are women)


Saudi Arabian female scientist (there are quite a few prominent ones)


Dr. Khawla S. Al-Kuraya, MD FCAP
Professor of Pathology
Director, Research Centre, King Faisal Specialist Hospital & Research Centre​

Law graduates:



Saudi doctors:


(most doctors in KSA are Saudi Arabian females)

Oppresed Saudi Arabian families:

But, but they cannot become kings, they wear a headscarf and they have not been able to drive for 26 years but are instead driven by family members and foreign drivers. The horror! ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram COMBINED cannot compete with how TERRIBLY BAD Saudi Arabian women have it. They no doubt envy the average Muslim/woman across the world. Definitely!



Give it a rest buddy and drink some Swedish vodka and eat some surströmming.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

You can voice your opinion, criticize and do whatever you want to. Similar to how "we" can do about your country (ies) and societies. I am not against the exchange of opinions or dialogue. In fact I support it.

However it seems that you do not understand the key issue (s) here. I thought I did a good job explaining this to you but I guess that I was wrong.

That is not how it works in the real world.

"Voters and abstainers in the Plenary session. In green countries that voted in favour, in orange those who abstained. In black, countries which failed to abstain or vote. In grey, countries which where not part of UN at the time of voting."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

Almost every convention is violated by signatories across the world. Anyway take a look at that map. Most UN members (all countries) are not signatories.

I gave you a few dozen examples of 100 times more serious issues that the world is facing and the West (NOT GCC) but you insist on wasting time on pathetic and largely irrelevant topics that will eventually change in the nearby future. Of course any sane person should point out such a hypocrisy as those feminists, liberals and others, who pretend to care about those issues, are not showing a similar interest in much more serious and numerous problems. It makes no sense.

They have played a role but the example of Syria was used to highlight the plight of women (a real one, a one that is about death and life) that is largely ignored. I guess nonsense articles about the Muslim world is a more pressing need.

Anyway there is really no point to discuss this as I have said everything that is needed to be said in this discussion and repeating myself won't help anyone.

Look at the first post in this thread and those that I posted. You can see all the "oppression" there.

Here you can see more of it.

University graduates (most Uni graduates in KSA are women)


Saudi Arabian female scientist (there are quite a few prominent ones)


Dr. Khawla S. Al-Kuraya, MD FCAP
Professor of Pathology
Director, Research Centre, King Faisal Specialist Hospital & Research Centre


Law graduates:



Saudi doctors:


(most doctors in KSA are Saudi Arabian females)

Oppresed Saudi Arabian families:

But, but they cannot become kings, they wear a headscarf and they have not been able to drive for 26 years but are instead driven by family members and foreign drivers. The horror! ISIS, Taliban, Boko Haram COMBINED cannot compete with how TERRIBLY BAD Saudi Arabian women have it. They no doubt envy the average Muslim/woman across the world. Definitely!



Give it a rest buddy and drink some Swedish vodka and eat some surströmming.

Just watched the latest news about Women freed from the grip of ISIS.
First reaction - throw the headscarves...

 

[Mugwop]

I agree. Arabs need to kick them out, before they cause trouble.

Also, what/who are keralis and biharis?

They are south indians and they are hated by marathis indians.

AFAIK some GCC nations banned Pakistanis from their land .
GCC and India needs each other and their relationship are very important for both party.
India is the main customer of crude from GCC and our trade relation with them is more than 200biliion$.
India buys 80%of the gas from Qatar .
So this is important .

On topic:Why should the OP cares about what some foreigners says about you ?
You should proudly follow your tradition .
You dont need some good certificates from some western nations .Just ignore them.



Its not Keralis but keralites

The ban that you are taking about was removed by kuwait,I was there few months ago and saw some Pakistanis there.
OP is refuting their propaganda,Feminists like to use proxies to claim victim hood.

 

[Attila the Hun]

They are south indians and they are hated by marathis indians.


The ban that you are taking about was removed by kuwait,I was there few months ago and saw some Pakistanis there.
OP is refuting their propaganda,Feminists like to use proxies to claim victim hood.

Cheers.

 

[T-72]

You are an Indian..

so what ? lol I'm not trying to be an ambassador here, just a random individual poster on an open international forum, and as such, do not represent a people or culture, or view discussions here from an "Indian" prism.

The fact is that BOTH the Western left and right wing are crying.

and where did you get these "facts" ?

There is no difference between them. Zero. Their goals are the same but their rhetoric is different.

I see.

They probably view conservative Hindus and Indians in the EXACT same light. If not I find your "wannabe Western conservative"-attitude quite pathetic.

I don't care, and I find your projecting your fears and insecurities on a whole other group of people and then trying to throw me in that mix quite pathetic. Clearly, you have no understanding of the concept of freedom of thought or individuality, but that probably shouldn't surprise anyone.

The rest of your tripe isn't even worth responding to, but did you know that when ISIS ran out of schoolbooks they ordered from Saudi Arabia ?

because you lot follow the same version.