Range missile "BrahMos" will not increase

[Dillinger]

LOL... nah yara, I have a very thick skin. His comments didn't bother me one bit, just continued prodding did the trick!

Well, no. It would be great if you could increase the range on your Brahmos. Nirbhay is a great asset, however, it's completely useless against mobile sea targets due to it's speed. Can be countered at almost any mode of operation: altitude / terminal trajectory, with present counter-measures.

Hype Nirbhay is meant for static ground targets, ground attack is the job designated to it. How many supersonic ASMs though hit at ranges above 300Km except for KH-22/AS-4 and the P-500? The whole point is to have a sustained supersonic cruise at low altitude and appreciable accuracy.

 

[Hyperion]

I thought you were asking about sea targets (where a modified / upgraded BrahMos would come in very handy). For land attack, Nirbhay is more than fit for the job.

Hype Nirbhay is meant for static ground targets, ground attack is the job designated to it. How many supersonic ASMs though hit at ranges above 300Km except for KH-22/AS-4? The whole point is to have a sustained supersonic cruise at low altitude and appreciable accuracy.

 

[Dillinger]

I thought you were asking about sea targets (where a modified / upgraded BrahMos would come in very handy). For land attack, Nirbhay is more than fit for the job.

What would be the point? Almost all ASCMs with sustained supersonic speeds max out at 300Km other than the two exceptions I mentioned. The only upgrade now is to realize sustained hypersonic cruise at low altitudes with a cruise profile. Other than that we will have to contravene the MTCR for range enhancement, possible but risky. One never knows when Uncle Sam might be in a mood to nip at your ankle.

 

[Mitro]

Russian will never let us touch ramjet engine technology and make also make sure that we don't modify our self like making it air launch for fighter plane.
If we need help in modifying ALCM then how can we be able to tweek ramjet engine for long distance when we have no knowledge of it .

After years of experience handling MKI we still send engine back to russia for over hauling and you guys think we can increase brahmos missile range .

And yes its very funny in joint venture we gave indian scientice father of brahmos title .

 

[Kompromat]

Russian will never let us touch ramjet engine technology and make also make sure that we don't modify our self like making it air launch for fighter plane.
If we need help in modifying ALCM then how can we be able to tweek ramjet engine for long distance when we have no knowledge of it .

After years of experience handling MKI we still send engine back to russia for over hauling and you guys think we can increase brahmos missile range .

And yes its very funny in joint venture we gave indian scientice father of brahmos title .

Russia never bought Brahmos. It was an upgraded P-800 Oniks aimed for export.

 

[cirr]

Actually the current range is under 280km。

 

[Hulk]

Google Translate

India strictly observes the inter-governmental agreement with Russia limiting the range supersonic missile "BrahMos" 300 kilometers, so there is a limit range of fire will not be increased.

This assured the Russian Journalists Executive Director of "BrahMos Aerospace" from the Indian side Sivathanu Pillai. Responding to a question, he said that India has signed with Russian intergovernmental agreement, pledging not to increase the maximum firing range missile "BrahMos", is 300 km.

However, the head of the company said that the joint Russian-Indian company is actively working to improve the missile "BrahMos" in other ways. "The development of technology in the field of missile technology goes very quickly, including at the theater, where India, and we can not keep up," - said Pillay.

In particular, the "work is being done in the direction of improving the accuracy of fire, increasing its capacity to overcome electronic warfare and air defense systems, increasing the speed of flight. These are all questions we carefully consider both individually and comprehensively. " "We are working on systems that would have a high reliability and a long service life with the possibility of extension. All of these systems with high performance must be integrated into a single product - a missile "BrahMos", - said Pillay.

"We are working to improve the rocket, remembering that the most important thing for us - our customers, which are the Army, Air Force and the Indian Navy," - said the head of the Indian side.

It is on expected lines, I did not expect the range to go up. Fanboys will say whatever they want, but I go strictly by what is reported or accepted widely.

What ?? Few months ago there were repeated reports of 500km Brahmos and now this?
Dr.Sivathanu Pillai has openly said several times that India can increase the range of Brahmos if it wants to.The least we expect from him is consistency in his words.

Unfortunately even our top scientist talk without understanding what they are talking.

 

[Safriz]

Kid, I am a former officer / professional @ armed forces, and have more engineering degrees than you can count. Go mess around with kids of your own age. Not enough time in life.

You know you are lying.....

 

[cirr]

Indians living in delusion again。

Typical。

Moral of the story：better to develop your own weapons。

The question is：when will the Indians learn？

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Russian will never let us touch ramjet engine technology and make also make sure that we don't modify our self like making it air launch for fighter plane.
If we need help in modifying ALCM then how can we be able to tweek ramjet engine for long distance when we have no knowledge of it .

After years of experience handling MKI we still send engine back to russia for over hauling and you guys think we can increase brahmos missile range .

And yes its very funny in joint venture we gave indian scientice father of brahmos title .

No need. India already has solid ramjet tech which is in use in Akash missile. DRDO already has developed liquid ramjet engine and is testing it to be used in smaller missiles.

 

[Safriz]

No need. India already has solid ramjet tech which is in use in Akash missile. DRDO already has developed liquid ramjet engine and is testing it to be used in smaller missiles.

Both are different...

One is solid fuelled other is luquid fuelled...

 

[MilSpec]

Their part is the navigation systems, new software and mission computers, which served our purpose in first place. You think as Brahmos as a newly developted missile, like Barak 8, but it isn't! It's a missile further developed from the Russian once, just like Maitri SAM is based on MICA VL and is further developed to suit our requirements. In both cases, the original missiles obviously will remain on the market and like we saw in the case of the P800, are even cheaper, or might come with other political or defence offers, that India can't provide. However, exports were never the aim of Brahmos, nor will it be for Maitri, but to get a capability for our forces, suitable for our requirements, which our industry was not able to develop on their own!

Again a moot point, I have never contested that the fact of joint venture brings us advanced capabilities, so does imports, FOR THE NTH time my contention is what the hell are you learning from the process to get any indigenous capabilities. Where is design sequence, scaled testing, MRP systems, ELC's, testing and validation. You can keep pasting lipstick on the pig but these joint ventures as they are structured currently do not provide technology transfer in the scale for any indigenous development.

I pose a simple question to you, would Indian military like a 800km supersonic cruise missile? can they develop it from the brahmos? Hint: the DRDO insisted on basing the brahmos off the p700 granit, but i can bet my bottom dollar there will be no range extension for brahmos....

That's what you say, but how do you know if the navigation systems they developed for Brahmos were not used in Nirbhay as well? The Brahmos light version (which btw is not only a scalled down version as you wrongly think) will have a new jointly developed Ramjet propulsion and do you think we will not benefit from that? The Hypersonic Brahmos will be all over a complete NG missile, which even the US is only developing right now and do you honestly belive that we would get similar even at the end of the next decade, if we would have done it alone?

To start off, missile navigation systems depend on the flight characteristics like drag and lift coef, acceleration, airframe G rating, motor configuration and yes advanced missile navigation systems are not plug and play as you might think, you cannot slap the navigation system from brahmos onto anything else unless the flight charecteristics are ditto. Apart from that as far as "drdo's navigation', Brahmos uses KH 555's glonass auxiliary with homing radar and ins, all three systems that russians have mastered, and if drdo claims they have one upped the russians with their indigenous systems, then I would be surprised as nirbhay's INS failed (Which incidentally points at faulty early launch containment).

You compare Brahmos with Pinaka? That's like saying developing FGFA is as simple as developing LCA!
As I said, we can and we must develop indigenous arms and techs, but only as far as we can and that is only at the lower level. To defend India we need more and these high tech arms and techs can either be procured from foreign sources, which makes us dependent on them (just think about how often Russia would have increased the price by now, of we had just simply procured the P800), can be build in JVs or joint developments.

No, I did not compare Brahmos with pinaka, I gave you an example of indigenous development. As far as costs are concerned, it again is babudum's fault of having ridiculous contracts with russia.

That's sounds nice, but no offense it's a naive point of view!

It completelly leaves out the defence needs of India and only looks at the industrial side (which ADA, DRDO and HAL already makes way too often and what turned out to be a major problem too!!!), bu if we had just put money in indigenous in the 80s for example, do you think we would have been able to defend ourselfs during Kargil war?
It was Mig 29s and Su 30Ks that secured the air and it was Mirage and Jags that were able to do precision strikes, after we integrated US and Israeli LGBs. With "hoping" on the older Migs and possibly the Marut, we would never had changed the war like that, because money alone don't get you expertise, that's what the Chinese proves, since all their investments didn't get them a high tech fighter engine either right?

It boggles me how you can not differentiate between two completely different topics at hand. Faulty planning of the armed forces of not having precision guided ammunition and being caught napping has nothing to do with the r&D funding. Lets not blame the industry for misgivings of the military planners. Apart from that you did see the brilliance of Pinaka systems in kargil, fruit of indigenous development. If proper planning was put in the 80's you could have had your own targetting pods and LGB's in kargil, but instead we kept buying and buying....

The top priority always needs to be the defence of the country, industrial benefits have to come later, or on the lower side, where delays can be taken as a calculated risk. That's why LCA is mainly important to set up an Indian aero industry, but not for the defence of the country!

Today you have the choices hence you can say that.... India need to wake the F up, and need to start putting in the hard work... you can cut corners with JV's but unless you put the real hard work you will keep importing key systems.... as far as your argument of top priority always needs to be the defence of the country comes from importing systems from other countries is concerned, please try explaining to the country who does the risk analysis where the decision is taken to import assault rifles instead of indigenously developing it. It is comedy circus that is being justified as national security priorities....

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Both are different...

One is solid fuelled other is luquid fuelled...

WHat?? did you miss what I said? India has solid ramjet tech that is already in use in Akash. Liquid ramjet prototype already under tests

 

[faithfulguy]

Indians living in delusion again。

Typical。

Moral of the story：better to develop your own weapons。

The question is：when will the Indians learn？

Give them a break. If India is capable of developing Brahmos by itself, would it need help from the Russians. Its because India is not capable of developing Brahmos by itself so they needed Russian help.

 

[SPFG]

India modifies Brahmos missile with new navigation system - India - DNA

India Modifies Brahmos Missile With New Nav System | Defense | RIA Novosti

India has uprated its BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles by installing the advanced satellite navigation systems from Russia's Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic long-range cruise missiles, adding GPS-GLONASS technology to the existing doppler-inertial platform, Izvestia reported on Tuesday quoting sources in the military-industrial complex.
The integration of the navigation systems from Kh-555 will turn BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile, into a "super-rocket" with almost a sub-strategic capability above its normal tactical range, capable of hitting targets over 180-300 miles (300-500 km), from sea, land and air launchers, and capable of being armed with a nuclear warhead, the source said.
The installation of the advanced navigation system is optimised for the new air-launched version of BrahMos, which will be carried by India's Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI strike fighters. India plans to deploy over 200 of the advanced aircraft by 2020.
Analysts say the addition of satellite-based navigation systems will improve the weapon's accuracy.
“Conventional Doppler INS has an inherent drift, so the longer the range of the weapon, the larger the relative error," said Douglas Barrie, air warfare analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. "Introducing satellite navigation improves the missile’s positional accuracy. From an investment stand-point it also makes sense to re-use sub-systems that have already been developed.”
Former Royal Navy Weapons Engineering officer Hugh Price agreed. "Satellite navigation means the missile will now be accurate to within a few meters," he said.
The combination of air-launched BrahMos with the Su-30 will give India a long-range strike capability similar to Russia's Tu-95MS and Tu-160 strategic bombers, said aviation analyst and editor of Vzlet magazine Vladimir Sherbakov.

© RIA Novosti.
The Russian-Indian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile
"This missile is an important element in the military power of the Indian armed forces and our Indian partners have placed a lot of faith in it," he said.
India's main potential adversary, Pakistan, does not have modern air defenses capable of engaging targets outside BrahMos range, a source in Russia's High Command told the paper.
The Indian Navy carried out a successful test-firing of the sea-launched variant of the weapon on October 7 from the frigate INS Teg off the coast of Goa, the New Indian Express reported.
BrahMos can reach a speed of Mach 2.8 at levels as low as 30 feet (10 m) or fly high-profile diving attacks. The missile was jointly developed by Russia and India, based on the NPO Mashinostroyenie 3M55 Onyx (NATO SS-N-26).

Sometimes element of Surprise is good. (Remember Shivalik 4000 ton design turned out to be 6800 ton monster!)