What's new

Range missile "BrahMos" will not increase

Stop being childish.

Range of Brahmos is the word of India... any other source to verify the actual range?

If Pakistan had Brahmos like missile given by China would Pakistan keep the range to 300 or would you be increasing it?

So I am amazed that people could be so sure that India would not increase the range of the Missile. Only a very foolish country would not, rest all WHO CAN will increase.
 
. .
@sancho, the gentelman has an excellent point, can we revive the joint venture vs product development argument here to this exact comment. Why hasn't DRDO been able to develop a 10000 kg 650km supersonic cruise missile like p700 granit, if joint development has any learning potential...

The gentleman is not correct, the JV is for a missile with certain specs and with ToT, but that doesn't mean we own the Russian propulsion. Nor that we could simply upgrade that varient with a new propulsion, since half of the rights still are Russian and they are bound to international agreements (at least publically).
And you first learn to produce something, before your learn to upgrade it, or to develop something new based on it. For example Dhruv MK1 mainly sourced from foreign parts -> later were upgrades with more indigenous parts -> which then resulted into Rudra and LCH and sets the base for HAL's LUH developments!
Similarly, Brahmos 1 -> Brahmos varients for all 3 forces -> Brahmos upgrades and Brahmos light -> Hypersonic Brahmos!

Apart from that one could also ask why we can build engines powerful enough to send rockets in the space, but can't build ramjet propulsions for a missile, a helicopter or fighter engine on our own right?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
.
Google Translate

India strictly observes the inter-governmental agreement with Russia limiting the range supersonic missile "BrahMos" 300 kilometers, so there is a limit range of fire will not be increased.

This assured the Russian Journalists Executive Director of "BrahMos Aerospace" from the Indian side Sivathanu Pillai. Responding to a question, he said that India has signed with Russian intergovernmental agreement, pledging not to increase the maximum firing range missile "BrahMos", is 300 km.

However, the head of the company said that the joint Russian-Indian company is actively working to improve the missile "BrahMos" in other ways. "The development of technology in the field of missile technology goes very quickly, including at the theater, where India, and we can not keep up," - said Pillay.

In particular, the "work is being done in the direction of improving the accuracy of fire, increasing its capacity to overcome electronic warfare and air defense systems, increasing the speed of flight. These are all questions we carefully consider both individually and comprehensively. " "We are working on systems that would have a high reliability and a long service life with the possibility of extension. All of these systems with high performance must be integrated into a single product - a missile "BrahMos", - said Pillay.

"We are working to improve the rocket, remembering that the most important thing for us - our customers, which are the Army, Air Force and the Indian Navy," - said the head of the Indian side.

I think he is bluffing us with his statements on brahmos range. we have to think that, is there any need to reveal all aspects of this missile?? it would draw unnecessary attention from hostiles.
 
. .
To true, but who's suggesting the Russians aren't already in the loop? Russia is willing to give India access to its very latest tech (AESA radars, fith gen fighters etc) so it is clearly very much willing to give India whatever it can. The only issue in this case is the MTCR so Russia has to keep things hush-hush.


The air-launched Bhramos is a real game-changer. You're talking about a 300km (at the very least!) supersonic CM able to be carried by one of the world's most advanced fighters (later Rafale and MIG-29K may get such a capability too!) so the reach of the Bhramos ALCM is only limited by the range of the MKI (which already has excellent range).

The world may not protest or raise questions about an increased range Brahmos but such a missile will be spotted via satellites when tested or deployed.....
We are not in 1960s when keeping secrets was easy.
 
.
The gentleman is not correct, the JV is for a missile with certain specs and with ToT, but that doesn't mean we own the Russian propulsion. Nor that we could simply upgrade that varient with a new propulsion, since half of the rights still are Russian and they are bound to international agreements (at least publically).
And you first learn to produce something, before your learn to upgrade it, or to develop something new based on it. For example Dhruv MK1 mainly sourced from foreign parts -> later were upgrades with more indigenous parts -> which then resulted into Rudra and LCH and sets the base for HAL's LUH developments!
Similarly, Brahmos 1 -> Brahmos varients for all 3 forces -> Brahmos upgrades and Brahmos light -> Hypersonic Brahmos!

Apart from that one could also ask why we can build engines powerful enough to send rockets in the space, but can't build ramjet propulsions for a missile, a helicopter or fighter engine on our own right?

The question remains, what has BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited produced apart from producing Brahmos which is based on p800 oniks, when it comes to business side of it, vietnam and indonesia both bought the bastion P complex although it was in negotiations with India for brahmos. So russia is still offering Oniks although brahmos is in the market and other countries are optinh for Oniks over brahmos, which is a pretty bad indicator for company in general.

Next ... are there any ramjet missiles drdo has in the pipeline that they have learned from brahmos project? All DRDO has learned from brahmos is to produce brahmos, thats it.
as far as brahmos for all forces is concerned, land and sea variant interchange is extremely easy as it is a canister launched system, the only need was fabricating the mounts for cannister on a mobile platform. Air launched version follows drop launch sequence, which is mainly done in system sequence code. and as far as brahmos light for rafale, mig 29 and m2k is concerned, sclaed down version of a system is not really a upgrade. Hypersonic is something in future hence no point in dicussing that. Till date Brahmos has bought nothing to the table that Oniks wouldn't had.

Whereas indigenous projects like pinaka brings the capability to take a basic MBRL system and develop it into a smerch class system and even further, or Astra which can have follow ups to it.

Brahmos brings exceptional tactical strike capability, but thats it, none of the JV benefits have shown up yet or can be seen on the distant horizon.
 
.
Apart from that one could also ask why we can build engines powerful enough to send rockets in the space, but can't build ramjet propulsions for a missile, a helicopter or fighter engine on our own right?


I actually missed this part of comment, india can build engines powerful enough to send rockets in the space, India can make very accurate sensors and micro controllers, because of years and years of product development and design went behind it.

India fails in combat aircraft engines and air to air missiles because India bought aircraft religiously from britian, france, and later russia, hence did not do the needed work for engines and tactical missiles.

IGDMP consisted for prithvi akash, trishul, nag. All areas made good headway but it did not include Astra, kaveri or a cm platform. Hence there was no research, no design evaluations and no progress in the field. We still have time, we need to take the high road and start doing the hard work, hire the best minds in the industry, and put money behind the research.
 
.
The world may not protest or raise questions about an increased range Brahmos but such a missile will be spotted via satellites when tested or deployed.....
We are not in 1960s when keeping secrets was easy.

I dont think MCTR has any relevance anymore.... Pakistan was an outright violator of MCTR, and it is still the strongest US ally in the region. China, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Pakistan, NoKO all are MCTR violators and nothing has happened to them.
 
.
The question remains, what has BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited produced apart from producing Brahmos
Their part is the navigation systems, new software and mission computers, which served our purpose in first place. You think as Brahmos as a newly developted missile, like Barak 8, but it isn't! It's a missile further developed from the Russian once, just like Maitri SAM is based on MICA VL and is further developed to suit our requirements. In both cases, the original missiles obviously will remain on the market and like we saw in the case of the P800, are even cheaper, or might come with other political or defence offers, that India can't provide. However, exports were never the aim of Brahmos, nor will it be for Maitri, but to get a capability for our forces, suitable for our requirements, which our industry was not able to develop on their own!

Next ... are there any ramjet missiles drdo has in the pipeline that they have learned from brahmos project? All DRDO has learned from brahmos is to produce brahmos, thats it.
That's what you say, but how do you know if the navigation systems they developed for Brahmos were not used in Nirbhay as well? The Brahmos light version (which btw is not only a scalled down version as you wrongly think) will have a new jointly developed Ramjet propulsion and do you think we will not benefit from that? The Hypersonic Brahmos will be all over a complete NG missile, which even the US is only developing right now and do you honestly belive that we would get similar even at the end of the next decade, if we would have done it alone?


Whereas indigenous projects like pinaka brings the capability to take a basic MBRL system and develop it into a smerch class system and even further, or Astra which can have follow ups to it.

:woot: You compare Brahmos with Pinaka? That's like saying developing FGFA is as simple as developing LCA!
As I said, we can and we must develop indigenous arms and techs, but only as far as we can and that is only at the lower level. To defend India we need more and these high tech arms and techs can either be procured from foreign sources, which makes us dependent on them (just think about how often Russia would have increased the price by now, of we had just simply procured the P800), can be build in JVs or joint developments.


We still have time, we need to take the high road and start doing the hard work, hire the best minds in the industry, and put money behind the research.

That's sounds nice, but no offense it's a naive point of view!

It completelly leaves out the defence needs of India and only looks at the industrial side (which ADA, DRDO and HAL already makes way too often and what turned out to be a major problem too!!!), bu if we had just put money in indigenous in the 80s for example, do you think we would have been able to defend ourselfs during Kargil war?
It was Mig 29s and Su 30Ks that secured the air and it was Mirage and Jags that were able to do precision strikes, after we integrated US and Israeli LGBs. With "hoping" on the older Migs and possibly the Marut, we would never had changed the war like that, because money alone don't get you expertise, that's what the Chinese proves, since all their investments didn't get them a high tech fighter engine either right?

The top priority always needs to be the defence of the country, industrial benefits have to come later, or on the lower side, where delays can be taken as a calculated risk. That's why LCA is mainly important to set up an Indian aero industry, but not for the defence of the country!
 
.
Bro this is a very naive and simplistic declaration of the world. You and I both know things go on behind closed doors that contradict whatever agreements may be in place concerning the said nation(s). It comes down to a cost benefit analysis at the end of the day- does Russia stand to gain more from working with India on a number of projects or is it it more likely to get caught?

Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the West actually knew about the Bhramos getting extended range because who is India going to use these weapons against? Pakistan and China most likely- enough said!

Again, playing the devil's advocate.

As far as i know Real Range is classified . Its more than 300+. May be it will give India a benifit of Surprise too. Bramos is a game changer .No wonder if it has longer range than 300km .Eg is our own Agni 5. Officially Agni 5 can carry 1.5 t Warhead to 5000 +/- KM With 1 t warhead it can have more than 7500KM .Which was the point China made after first lanck.Same goes with Bramos too . As Abingdonboy saidthings goes beyound the papers and media.

Good example is the latest revelation : Russia Built Chinese Z10 Helicopter .Which China claimed as Indigenous Program :azn:
"Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau ... dropped the proverbial bombshell at Heli-Expo here in Las Vegas this afternoon," Norris writes, "Mikheyev told an astonished crowd that China’s Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter was actually designed in great secrecy under contract for China by Kamov."

Kamov is a Russian "rotary wing" helicopter manufacturing company which has seen great success building attack and transport helicopters for the Russian Air Force.

China played it off the whole time as if its company Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation was spearheading the lead on development. Maybe Kamov and the Russian felt bad for rejecting China's bids to buy MiG jets and attack helicopters in the late 90s early 200s.

It's important to note that Kamov was not the only entity that gave China a hand. Pratt and Whitney, and Canadian defense company, paid a hefty $75 million dollar fine for delivering helicopter engine hardware for the Z-10 to China.


So this what I think Bramos : Tactical range, capable of hitting targets over 180-300 miles (300-500 km) Sea-skimming as low as 3-4 meters. Speed, Mach 2.8 - 3.0. Launch platform, Ship, submarine, aircraft and land-based. No one will question the range at times of WAR any way :smart:
 
.
MTCR and other arms control agreements between USA and Russia are not based on blind trust..
Both countries have well established procedures to varify each other's arms exports..
If India increases Brahmos range....it will be known...and cant be kept secret.
Americans wont even think any thing stupid as that when it comes to INDIA. America need India more than India Need America.Its all in the game.

And I said this months ago. You can not just circumvent MTCR by changing the packaging or loading more fuel. People who wrote those "binding treaties" were no fools.

In real life there are always two options, either you break the rule or you don't. There is no such thing as middle path.
How do any one can confrm Bramos Rage ? That too at times of war ? There will be many counter reason from user too If they found the range of missile used at sea or air !:coffee:
 
.

Abingdonboy...the picture is not in good taste I am sure you not be banned or warned on this site but if the same picture was of another religion their could have been riots all over the globe.

I would request you to edit your post and do the needful as a true Indian.
 
.
Son, it's a missile not a crossbow. It's difficult to argue if you don't have the most elementary knowledge of weapon systems.

How do any one can confrm Bramos Rage ? That too at times of war ? There will be many counter reason from user too If they found the range of missile used at sea or air !:coffee:
 
.
Abingdonboy...the picture is not in good taste I am sure you not be banned or warned on this site but if the same picture was of another religion their could have been riots all over the globe.

I would request you to edit your post and do the needful as a true Indian.

Are you being serious sir? It was meant as a joke with no malicious intent behind the post.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom