Rajputs, Jats and Gujjars

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

We are optimistic for our future.

“And also (He will give you) another (blessing) which you love, help from Allah (against your enemies) and a near victory. And give glad tidings (O Muhammad SAW) to the believers.” -Quran 61:13

 

[Hellfire]

You are correct in that Pakistan is still struggling to create a viable national narrative, a task made infinitely more difficult by the conscious choices made in its history.

The problem is that the antithetical nature of the narrative is lost on the majority and those who do make the mistake of even accepting and addressing the issue, are quickly labeled as being un-Pakistani (if that can be considered a word).

It is precisely analogous to what our side is doing, trying to remove Mughal period from history.

Personal opinion, every instance wherein the country (or it's predating form) has been vanquished/subjugated/conquered, needs to be evaluated with pragmatism in order to derive the lessons that history have to offer. To do otherwise is to invite the tendency of repeating the history in some other form, but with roughly the same consequences.

 

[VCheng]

The problem is that the antithetical nature of the narrative is lost on the majority and those who do make the mistake of even accepting and addressing the issue, are quickly labeled as being un-Pakistani (if that can be considered a word).

It is precisely analogous to what our side is doing, trying to remove Mughal period from history.

Personal opinion, every instance wherein the country (or it's predating form) has been vanquished/subjugated/conquered, needs to be evaluated with pragmatism in order to derive the lessons that history have to offer. To do otherwise is to invite the tendency of repeating the history in some other form, but with roughly the same consequences.

Why do you think I am so reviled here? Speaking up for the truth is important, but when the situation is like you have described it (and I agree), one can only do so much against mandatory delusions of such an encompassing nature.

Your side will fail at erasing Mughal history just as surely as we have failed to manufacture a viable national narrative, just as the removal of statues will fail in the US South. Such contrived revisionism never works, except by highlighting the importance of the true lessons being learned from history.

 

[Hellfire]

Why do you think I am so reviled here? Speaking up for the truth is important, but when the situation is like you have described it (and I agree), one can only do so much against mandatory delusions of such an encompassing nature.

Your side will fail at erasing Mughal history just as surely as we have failed to manufacture a viable national narrative, just as the removal of statues will fail in the US South. Such contrived revisionism never works, except by highlighting the importance of the true lessons being learned from history.

Hence, a step back to read and post only when actually need to. And to who one feels like replying to.

 

[VCheng]

Hence, a step back to read and post only when actually need to. And to who one feels like replying to.

For once I, a despicable traitor, agree with a dirty Yindoo.

(Just kidding! Please do not complain, for people are positively itching to ban me.)

Actually, that is a good policy. Being selective in whom we interact with makes not only for mental peace, but also a better forum overall, if that is a goal any longer.

 

[Hellfire]

For once I, a despicable traitor, agree with a dirty Yindoo.

(Just kidding! Please do not complain, for people are positively itching to ban me.)

Actually, that is a good policy. Being selective in whom we interact with makes not only for mental peace, but a also a better forum overall, if that is a goal any longer.

Goal, sir, is always to improve own knowledge, for even in a heated discussion with a worthy member, I do learn a lot. I may not agree, but I do get insights nevertheless. Saiyan0321 has already suggested a reading to me, one which I intend to undertake as soon as I can make time.

 

[Great Janjua]

Goal, sir, is always to improve own knowledge, for even in a heated discussion with a worthy member, I do learn a lot. I may not agree, but I do get insights nevertheless. Saiyan0321 has already suggested a reading to me, one which I intend to undertake as soon as I can make time.

I suggest start of by reading in the line of fire by pervez Musharraf.

 

[VCheng]

Goal, sir, is always to improve own knowledge, for even in a heated discussion with a worthy member, I do learn a lot. I may not agree, but I do get insights nevertheless. Saiyan0321 has already suggested a reading to me, one which I intend to undertake as soon as I can make time.

Such insights require a certain level of intellectual prowess on both sides to be fruitful. It is a testament to the few hardy surviving souls already mentioned that this discussion can exist.

 

[Hellfire]

I suggest start of by reading in the line of fire by pervez Musharraf.

What, sir, makes you think that I have not read and then some? Reading the Pakistani authors and perspective, is something undertaken with diligence. Similar to the Chinese.

But alas, the perspective is invariably the outcome of a multitude of sources, not necessarily found in the public domain and a combination of own experience in the field and in counter insurgency in Kashmir.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That identity is meaningless and just a slogan until and unless sharia is enforced as the law of the land.

See, now you're falling into the trap of 'defining identity' for someone.

 

[VCheng]

See, now you're falling into the trap of 'defining identity' for someone.

I am not defining anything, except observing that a land claiming to be holy is not really what it claims to be without implementing the holy laws for which it claims to stand.

 

[Nilgiri]

Why do you think I am so reviled here? Speaking up for the truth is important, but when the situation is like you have described it (and I agree), one can only do so much against mandatory delusions of such an encompassing nature.

Your side will fail at erasing Mughal history just as surely as we have failed to manufacture a viable national narrative, just as the removal of statues will fail in the US South. Such contrived revisionism never works, except by highlighting the importance of the true lessons being learned from history.

Woah woah woaaaaah buddy....looks like you've had too much to think again! We can't have that here!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am not defining anything, except observing that a land claiming to be holy is not really what it claims to be without implementing the holy laws for which it claims to stand.

When you say that for a land's identity to be 'X', it should have 'Y' laws, you are defining it for them.

Even when we talk about nations that have narrower definitions about their identities (such as secular) there is a lot of debate on what exactly that means and even in the West these identities are constantly evolving, driven by various dynamics.

When we talk about religion, it's even more shades of gray given the lack of consensus withing religious circles on religious interpretations. This is a question I often pose to 'religious Pakistanis' who want a 'Caliphate' or 'Shariah' - whose interpretation of Shariah given that even within the sects there is no consensus? What are the details of this Caliphate system and how does it differ from a system in which the government is elected?

The fact is that you'll ask a hundred people and get a hundred different answers, so arguing that 'implementing Holy Laws' is a necessity is just as vague an answer as that offered by the religious wing.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There are no clans in Islam, Arabs had identification based on clans , but eventually even they embraced simply being known as Muslims.

There is no maharaja or mughal king who I rather associate with , I am better off being associated to Prophet himself and he never preached no clans

 

[VCheng]

Woah woah woaaaaah buddy....looks like you've had too much to think again! We can't have that here!

(Read in a southern drawl )

Then aah do aapolahgize!

When you say that for a land's identity to be 'X', it should have 'Y' laws, you are defining it for them.

Even when we talk about nations that have narrower definitions about their identities (such as secular) there is a lot of debate on what exactly that means and even in the West these identities are constantly evolving, driven by various dynamics.

When we talk about religion, it's even more shades of gray given the lack of consensus withing religious circles on religious interpretations. This is a question I often pose to 'religious Pakistanis' who want a 'Caliphate' or 'Shariah' - whose interpretation of Shariah given that even within the sects there is no consensus? What are the details of this Caliphate system and how does it differ from a system in which the government is elected?

The fact is that you'll ask a hundred people and get a hundred different answers, so arguing that 'implementing Holy Laws' is a necessity is just as vague an answer as that offered by the religious wing.

Nope. I am not defining anything. What you should do is read the Objectives Resolution and then see who defined it as what, and how many shades of grey they used, or even none at all.

(It seems pretty black and white to the impartial observer. )