RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[marcos98]

I think some people will be in for a ugly surprise if indeed Pakistan and India goes to war.

Indeed.....

 

[Windjammer]

lol diverting the topic again well it is in you what else can i accept from a person who think by winning air war you have won the whole war

Commenting on an achievement is better than being a wishful thinker on the next battle, I believe the words is fan boy material.

 

[SBD-3]

The bottom line is IA and IAF achieved its objective i.e push back all intruders and recapture the posts.
The failure by top pak army brass to correctly assess the response from India was collosal to say the least.

Once again Indian Armed Forces achieved what the country wanted from it. Period

BTW Rafale owns f-16

I never wanted to discuss this issue, but since you guys are not willing to break out of dream land ,I hope this serves well the heroic conception that you had

Praveen Swami

DRASS, Aug. 10

PAKISTAN soldiers perched at peak 5,353 metres, on the strategic Marpo La Ridge had a grandstand view of this year's Vijay Diwas celebrations, marking the official end of the Kargil war. At least some of them must had wry smiles on their faces, for altho ugh peak 5,353 metres is inside the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC), Pakistani troops held the mountain through the Kargil war and continue to do so today.

Artillery observers on peak 5,353 metres can direct accurate artillery fire on to up to 20 km of the National Highway 1A, and cripple Indian defensive positions from Mushkoh to Bhimbet. Indian troops are being forced to compensate for this tactical blund er by engaging in a series of operations in the Batalik sector.

Pakistani occupation of point 5353 means Operation Vijay's core objective in Drass, securing the highway, in effect failed. Officials in New Delhi attempt to argue that point 5353 is in an ambiguous location on the Line of Control, and that there are two peaks of the same height which are being confused, claims debunked by copies of the Army's own maps which are in Business Line's possession.

Senior Army commanders in Drass are just as evasive. Asked if Pakistan was indeed in occupation of the peak, 8 Mountain Division Commander Major General Satnam Singh replied that it was ``too early to say''. Asked again, Gen. Singh said he would ``provid e authentic information'' during this correspondent's ``next trip''. The strange story of peak 5353 began with the end of Operation Vijay, and the proclamation of a national triumph at Kargil.

Point 5353, like the features around it, had been occupied by Pakistani troops at the start of the Kargil war. Indian soldiers, however, were nowhere near its summit when hostilities were pronounced to have ended. All that had been achieved was the occup ation of two secondary positions on the Marpo La ridge line, Charlie 6 and Charlie 7. Pakistani troops also remained on point 5240, some 1,200 metres as the crow flies from point 5353. 56 Brigade Commander Amar Aul, in charge of the operations to secure point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.

Com. Aul's tactics, evidently under political pressure to bring about as quick an end to hostilities as possible, were designed to secure a subsequent territorial exchange. In mid-August, 1999, his efforts to bring about a deal bore fruit. Extended negot iations between the Brigadier and a Pakistani interlocutor, who called himself Colonel Saqlain, led to both sides committing themselves to leave points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied.

Both Indian and Pakistani troops were now pulled back to their pre-Kargil position, leaving an arial distance of about a kilometre between the armies along most of the Marpo La ridge. The deal wasn't ideal, for point 5353 was of enormously more strategic importance to India than either 4251 or 4875 were for Pakistan, but it was better than nothing.

Towards the end of October, things began to go horribly wrong. Commander Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take point 5240 and the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles to occupy 5353, choosing to violate the August agreement rather than risk the prospect that Pakistan might reoccupy these positions again. While the 16 Grenadiers attack proceeded as planned, despite bad weather, the 1-3 Gurkha Rifles, for reasons which are still not clear, never made their way up 5353. When Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 52 40, they promptly launched a counter assault on 5353. Seven days later, in early November, the Grenadiers unit on 5240 watched Pakistan take up positions on the more important peak.

Pakistan moved rapidly to consolidate its position on 5353. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak from Benazir Post, Pakistan's most important permanent position in the area. In the meanwhile, Commander Aul considered plans to retake the peak. He didn't have much choice. India's positions on 5240 were under threat, along with positions of the 2 Naga in Mushkoh, the 2 Grenadiers in Drass, and the 8 Sikh in Bhimbet. Offensives were discussed in January an d February this year, and again in May and August, but had to be abandoned each time because of the risks involved.

With 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by road to Pakistan's rear headquarters at Gultari, and defensive positions heavily fortified, any frontal attack would mean a full-blown resumption of hostilities in Drass.

The Army's tactics in Kargil now appear to centre around forcing a territorial swap for 5353. The worst of the fighting has come in the Batalik area, to the east of Kargil, where Indian troops have been ordered to take any unoccupied positions they disco ver on the Pakistan side of the LoC.

In one such operation on April 8, a company of the 14 Sikh Regiment occupied point 5310, an unheld peak roughly one kilometre air distance on the Pakistan side of the LoC. Subedar Bhatnam Singh and one soldier were killed in an avalanche during the opera tion.

Pakistan retaliation has been prompt. On the night of July 27, a group of 24 porters and four soldiers carrying material for an offensive from Gol Tekri to Rock Fall, facing the key Chorbat La range, were ambushed by Pakistani troops or irregulars. One p orter was killed, and three are still missing, presumed dead. There is little doubt that the Pakistani ambush was laid deep in Indian territory for Kalashnikov empties, with a short range, were recovered from the ambush site. The incident followed the de struction, in May, of a new Pakistani post with a shoulder-held missile.

While the Union Government's propaganda on the Kargil War has allowed it to score propaganda points, the end of the conflict is, clearly, not quite yet in sight.
Pakistan still occupies key Drass point

'Key peak still in Pakistani occupation'

IANS[ MONDAY, JUNE 07, 2004 09:28:32 PM ]

CHANDIGARH : A former Indian Army officer has claimed a few strategic peaks in the Kargil sector of Jammu and Kashmir , including the crucial Point 5353, were still under occupation by Pakistani forces.

Brig. Surinder Singh, who was dismissed from service in June 2001, also claimed the Indian defence establishment had misled the country by claiming it had gained control on the peaks in Kargil, where India and Pakistan fought a brief border conflict in 1999.


Singh was sacked after being embroiled in a controversy with his superiors about alleged lapses and intelligence failures that led to Pakistan-backed intruders occupying strategic features along a 140-km stretch of the Line of Control.

He asserted he had proof that Point 5353, a hill in the Drass sector of north Kashmir , was still under Pakistani occupation.

"I have evidence of this claim including satellite images," he told reporters.

Singh said the alleged inaction of the defence and political leadership during the Kargil conflict was only the tip of the iceberg.

"The defence establishment had misled the nation about getting every intruder out of the Kargil sector. I can give proof of this to whatever committee the new government at the centre sets up," Singh said, noting he had written about the matter to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

Singh said he had asked Mukherjee to order a thorough probe into the Kargil conflict and issues that were deliberately hidden by the previous coalition government led by the Bharatiya Janata Party.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow/724898.cms

 

[SQ8]

The bottom line is IA and IAF achieved its objective i.e push back all intruders and recapture the posts.
The failure by top pak army brass to correctly assess the response from India was collosal to say the least.

Once again Indian Armed Forces achieved what the country wanted from it. Period

BTW Rafale owns f-16

Outside:

Inside:

 

[dbc]

The bottom line is IA and IAF achieved its objective i.e push back all intruders and recapture the posts.
The failure by top pak army brass to correctly assess the response from India was collosal to say the least.Once again Indian Armed Forces achieved what the country wanted from it. Period

BTW Rafale owns f-16

The IAF took losses in equipment and personnel because it underestimated the SAM threat (your claim).That claim is baffling, didn't Indians know that the US shipped thousands of units to Afghanistan via Pakistan.Didn't India know about the devastating effect the Stringer had on Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan?

BTW Rafale owns f-16

Sorry, the Rafale got owned by the old F-4 Phantoms, as a matter of fact one Phantom accounted for five Rafale at Frisian Flag the F-16's are a bit out its league.

 

[blackops]

Outside:

Inside:

oh common what wrong did he said was the pa able to achive its targets to keep the points under its belt no it didnt well lets not make this a kargil section

 

[Windjammer]

The bottom line is IA and IAF achieved its objective i.e push back all intruders and recapture the posts.
The failure by top pak army brass to correctly assess the response from India was collosal to say the least.

Once again Indian Armed Forces achieved what the country wanted from it. Period

BTW Rafale owns f-16

There you go,....totally out of context........I am talking about an incident after the Mumbai debacle,..... nothing to do with Kargil.
How can you then claim, it's fake news....... Waste of time, if you ask me.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Can't exactly make out as to what you are saying, ......but if you are implying that this all is fake news, then at best, you are in the wrong debate......
The news of the Indian intrusion wasn't exactly printed in small writing and published in some dark corner.
The naval incident occurred during a rescue mission in International waters,...... a little different to when two hostile neighbours are in a war footing.

Haaa haaa.. News from US came out like India is planning or preparing to strike.. There was no picture nor a complaint raised from your Embassy ... just apposed to the complained raised during the Naval conflict.. cant you see the contrary... by the way it is nothing new for you guys to get misleaded...

 

[kingdurgaking]

The IAF took losses in equipment and personnel because it underestimated the SAM threat (your claim).That claim is baffling, didn't Indians know that the US shipped thousands of units to Afghanistan via Pakistan.Didn't India know about the devastating effect the Stringer had on Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan?

India did know the seriousness of the conflict only when it lost the Canberra and Mig-27 ... which showed how dense occupation was done with the necessary arms... What else then.. high altitude bombing.. You have to understand it is not a easy task on mountains.. US supports Pakistan we knew it.. US gives aid to Pakistan in the form of arms.. we knew it.. but ultimately what happened we eat the complex war... we won it...

 

[kingdurgaking]

There you go,....totally out of context........I am talking about an incident after the Mumbai debacle,..... nothing to do with Kargil.
How can you then claim, it's fake news....... Waste of time, if you ask me.

Your ISI/Army is never a trusted source.. which is why we say it is fake... they have twisted the history.. they have been faking things ... which is why we say it is a fake news.. there is no former complaint launched with India regarding this... Even the american source didn't question India's action.. If the source was there ... surely US would have brought the issue on the table..

 

[marcos98]

self delete

 

[marcos98]

The IAF took losses in equipment and personnel because it underestimated the SAM threat (your claim).That claim is baffling, didn't Indians know that the US shipped thousands of units to Afghanistan via Pakistan.Didn't India know about the devastating effect the Stringer had on Soviet aircraft in Afghanistan?






Sorry, the Rafale got owned by the old F-4 Phantoms, as a matter of fact one Phantom accounted for five Rafale at Frisian Flag the F-16's are a bit out its league.

India's military and intelligence establishments erred in assessing the indicators.
These stringers , as mentioned before caught the IAF off guard . The initial setbacks factored a change in the tactics employed.
Operation Safedsagar, as the air operations in the Kargil area were called, was, indeed, a milestone in the history of military aviation, as this was the first time that air power was employed in such an environment, replicated maybe only by USAF in Op. Anaconda.
In the final analysis, the effective application of air power has indisputably saved further casualties as well as compressed considerably the time frame in which our Army has made such progress on the ground.

Can you provide few more info on Frisian flag.

 

[marcos98]

Outside:

Inside:

Santro, do you not agree that India achieved a moral, tactical and diplomatic victory in aftermath of assessment of Kargil debacle.
The Kargil incursion was the biggest blunder carried out by PA.

 

[MastanKhan]

Santro, do you not agree that India achieved a moral, tactical and diplomatic victory in aftermath of assessment of Kargil debacle.
The Kargil incursion was the biggest blunder carried out by PA.

Marcos,

To the contrary, india has not achieved any single goal in the aftermath of kargil----I am surprised and I don't know what made you believe of that---the dispute that needed to be brought out in the open by the kargil incursion is out in the open for the last many years----the world knows that there needs to be a resolve to the issue in order to make peace---that was the primary goal for oper kargil---what are we missing over here.

 

[SQ8]

Santro, do you not agree that India achieved a moral, tactical and diplomatic victory in aftermath of assessment of Kargil debacle.
The Kargil incursion was the biggest blunder carried out by PA.

I absolutely agree with you.. but was there a F-16 block 52+ or dassualt Rafale involved there??
and the tone of your statement prompted that response..
Kargil for all its misadventures.. did show how ill informed RAW was...and that due to its negligence, the jugular of Kashmir was under the sights of the PA .. Still, nothing to do with the topic. and so please come back to the two jets.. or move on.