RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[kingdurgaking]

F-16's were not involved because the PAF was kept in the dark and because Pakistan wanted to show the world Kashmir freedom fighters were responsible for the attack, hard to do that with the F-16's flying top cover.

And what do you mean by weapons were US origin?

If the IAF performance was so brilliant why were ten senior officers demoted or forced to retire early immediately after Kargil?

Yeah for the loss of the Aircraft because they miscalculated and have lost the precious life... which is why IAF officers got demoted.. secondly PAF was kept on dark BS... they where flying sorties.. because Mig-29 was there with R-77 they actually couldnt give support to there own men and each of them took lock.. F-16 didnt have missile to cover the distance or hit Mig-29 ...while Mig-29 had the range... if Mig-21 was flying with WVR wont PAF birds wouldnt have entered the LoC covering there men?.... you have to be kidding with your logic... ultimately PAF knew there men was fighting down... and IAF was on there head... and PAF was there staying helpless.. any misadventure of F-16 would have been surely a omlete..

the American weapons.. they were using radars and fire finders , stringers etc... you know what India didnt have them...

 

[kingdurgaking]

Where did you come up with this conclusion? The F16's at no point feared the MIG29's, stop making up random B.S. The F16's were employed and it was not the MIG29s, but lack of spares that kept it back. Spares were being preserved in case a full shooting war breaks out. It were not only the F16's but the entire PAF that was not part of the war as the IAF fighters never crossed the border. Indeed great skill applied by IAF and IA, an entire division was needed to take out a battalion that had no air support, Good Job Indeed.

Last i heared F-16 and Mig-29 locked each othere and F-16 breaked the pursiut.. so the logic you are explaining that F-16 is kept on ground for spare parts is totaly hilarious ... F-16 breaked it because they didnt have missile to take the advantage.. where as Mig-29 did.. that is the reason.. in a war if your PAF not giving air cover that shows the lack and courage.. you can argue that PAF didnt know about the war.. but how long?... it is enough for PAF to know that a war is happening in 30 minutes the first time a cannebera was shot down... a basic air cover is not given by PAF forget F-16 they could have given with any fighter in the invetory... and F-16 being superior it should have sent... you cant say PAF was professional by not crossing LoC ... but what about the men who crossed it??... they dont have professionalism?? come on lame execuses dont make a day... PAF didnt have a chance to fight thats it.. and IAF had courage and professionalism .... thats why we didnt cross LoC...

some of the reply applies to DBC...

 

[DARKY]

And you hit the pause button.. get up .. get a drink.. and resume playing Ace combat then.. eh buddy??

Its a cool game why don't you join in some day I'll show how to down a flanker using a viper in knife combat.

Are really trying to be like the other fanboy's??

I wish I could...........

If you really have read a lot.. then operational considerations may also have come into your thought process..

Somehow the word flanker/Su 30/MKI looms in your head and you're getting into a habbit of not getting into my posts......there are always two meanings one for fanboys and other for intellectual........however please read again.

Heck with any fighter flying..........armed with R-73.........30 mm canon.....plus TVC.......I don't think even F-22 would get as close as 10 km.........never minds its Pakistan after all.

If you still didn't get my point then here it is;
In an attempt to stop an incursion of enemy combat jets in own airspace without escalating to a war or combat situation most fighter planes would prefer a BVR lock.......no pilot would leave its advantageous situation to get into a sticky/suicidal WVR especially when there's a wingman around.......even R-73 is as lethal.
Combat planes aren't Tu-95 bears.

Yet somehow... you assume its all
" In this corner.. weighing in at 50000 pounds.. the su-30mki.. and this corner ....."

Those 50000 pounds.......have got T/W ratio>1.1 plus TVC......NATO and USAF pilots aren't fools that they rate it higher than their legacy F-15/F-16/Tornados/Mirages/EF2000.......in WVR.

The jets were picked up way behind the border.."escorted" or tailed.. which ever soothes your needs.. all the way to kharian...a continuous lock kept on them... till they turned back.
If anything, one should take this as a sign of IAF professionalism that they stuck to their plan, knowing they were at a disadvantage and did not turn back till apparently they were ordered to abort... all the while maneuvering.

And what makes you think that phalcons and IAF ground radar didn't pick F-16s on the other side and insisted the flankers to get in such a situation that <10km separation remained......I don't expect you to come up with stuff like a 50000 pound jet can be out runned by the Mighty F-16.

R-73 or not.. at <10km.. a Aim-9L rarely misses... even with Israeli, French or Martian jammers on board.
Ask a real pilot if you wish.. if us "fakir's" of the internet dont satisfy you.. I asked.. why dont you if you can.

Thanks for the advice there are countermeasures available........I have got a couple of my relatives working for IAF.....and I always meet them whenever they get time....Its 4 hour ride from where I stay.......and one of my very close buddy from graduation college has recently been commissioned in technical branch.......so I know what I write when I write.......and upto what extent a professional can disclose about such facts.

 

[DARKY]

They will ask for "link" i remember a joke on darky, once his father introduced him to someone saying ,"guppta, meet my son" , he instantaneously interrupted his father by saying
Link Please!

Kid I have got 100s of jokes on you and your behaviours...........and they aren't even funny.

 

[DARKY]

I hope for the threads shake u will delete this post.

Never mind buddy Its not his fault............I feel pathetic about him............It can be clearly seen what kind of family background he comes from.............and what his mother and father could teach him how to behave publicly..........he can't be blamed..........however lend me a hand in pressing the report button for personal attack and instigating a flame/troll fight..........with absusive behaviour.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Never mind buddy Its not his fault............I feel pathetic about him............It can be clearly seen what kind of family background he comes from.............and what his mother and father could teach him how to behave publicly..........he can't be blamed..........however lend me a hand in pressing the report button for personal attack and instigating a flame/troll fight..........with absusive behaviour.

No problem mate. I got Your back.

 

[DARKY]

Where did you come up with this conclusion? The F16's at no point feared the MIG29's, stop making up random B.S. The F16's were employed and it was not the MIG29s, but lack of spares that kept it back. Spares were being preserved in case a full shooting war breaks out. It were not only the F16's but the entire PAF that was not part of the war as the IAF fighters never crossed the border. Indeed great skill applied by IAF and IA, an entire division was needed to take out a battalion that had no air support, Good Job Indeed.



PAF never released the HUD pictures to any news outlet, but the picture was shown to Admiral Mullen to make it clear to the Indians that this type of behaviour will not be tolerated. PAF and IAF are professional entities, pictures and news like this is not fed to the media.



Oh my, you have been playing too many video games. After this post, you have officially joined the fanboy clan with your mate Storm Force.

This post didn't even deserve a reply however.........Don't tell here that the missile locked F-16 was flying without spares Pandora and KDK ripped apart your claim.........I have even got an article on how the locked PAF pilot felt about the incident but I don't want to further derail the thread.

Its better to play video game and feel good shooting superior planes around.......than wasting your time and brain in believing illusive/false propaganda....you can choose shooting especially the ones your opponents have why don't you start today I guess stromforce won't mind you joining his team.

 

[rockstarIN]

Where did you come up with this conclusion? The F16's at no point feared the MIG29's, stop making up random B.S. The F16's were employed and it was not the MIG29s, but lack of spares that kept it back. Spares were being preserved in case a full shooting war breaks out. It were not only the F16's but the entire PAF that was not part of the war as the IAF fighters never crossed the border. Indeed great skill applied by IAF and IA, an entire division was needed to take out a battalion that had no air support, Good Job Indeed.

Boss, it is common sense that a BVR capable fighter is a nightmare for a non-BVR fighter. Whether it is USAF, IsAF , PAF or IAF. Accept it. A guy with a dagger will definitly fear the oppenent with a revolver coz it can shoot before the other one can approach. Think rationaly sometime than sheer patriotism.

 

[notorious_eagle]

DBC,


Well the question in this war will be---what kind of losses the iaf can accept for its major strike aircraft----I mean to say that it is not going to be a total video game persay----. But there is going to be a magic number of su30 losses----whence that number is reached----there might be cracks begining to show in flying and operational capabilities of the iaf.

Well---not to be disrespectful---there is always a fear factor ( the break down of invincibility factor )----if paf takes down the major part of the sorties in the first 2 days of the war----paf would break the momentum of air superiority of numbers----but once the iaf regroups and takes charge----there will be some serious fighting---also what kind of assistance they will get from israeli air force---and how they utilize it will also play a major role.

Iaf cannot deploy 100% of their aircraft onour border----more like 60--70%-----.

Khan Sahib

Once the MKI's start crossing the border, attrition will kick in and IAF will start loosing fighters, thats a no brainer shooting down an aircraft with an RCS of an elephant. Keep in mind that we will be fighting to our strength and that is combat in WVR, MKI's advantage relies on heavy loads and taking out fighters from stand off ranges. If the IAF does not wants to cross the border and wants to fight from stand off ranges, than sure PAF is in a position now to accept batte from stand off ranges, they can fire the R73 and we will return the favour by firing the AIM120C and SD10B. Another very important factor, besides AD fighters, there are going to be dozens of SAMS lighting up and unleashing their load on the incoming intruder. I think by now its an open secret(thanks to some a** holes on the net) that PAF is in possession of SAMS that have never been published, at least officially by the PAF. Thanks to our Chinese friends we do possess assets that can target bogies at high altitudes and they are deadly accurate.

The biggest gap in recent time in Pakistan's Air Defence was not having top radar coverage in Balochistan; due to MKI's endurance, it could have gone round the Indian Ocean and penetrate from that grey area. That problem has been pretty much solved as PAF has placed additional ground radar assets in the area and the introduction of AWACS will definitely cover that blind spot. If you look at the overall picture of Pakistan's Radar Coverage of our Eastern and Coastal Areas, there are not many blind spots through which the IAF can penetrate unless off course they had the Raptor.

The next war at max will not be more than 2 or 3 days, this is also stated in the new Indian War Doctrine. For that, PAF has enough resources to withstand and carry out their own strike missions against IAF targets. PAF has a record of hitting hard and fast, the organizational deployment and the exercises that PAF has carried out makes it clear that they do have the capability of defending their skies and hitting the enemy back with lightning speed. Dont look too much into the IAF numerical superiority; break this superiority down into Close Air Support, Air Defence, Air Superiority and placing stand by aircrafts near the Chinese border and you will see that numerical superiority disappear. I have my severe doubts about IAF crossing over and reducing the PAF in the rubbles, thats just fanboy talk.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Last i heared F-16 and Mig-29 locked each othere and F-16 breaked the pursiut.. so the logic you are explaining that F-16 is kept on ground for spare parts is totaly hilarious ... F-16 breaked it because they didnt have missile to take the advantage.. where as Mig-29 did.. that is the reason..

Hilarious, have you ever heard of something called Anti BVR Tactics? I am pretty sure you haven't because you have developed your knowledge reading the Wikipedia , PAF has been practicing Anti BVR Tactics since 1987 when the VVS introduced the MIG29 in Afghanistan. Thus PAF pilots are well versed in performing Anti BVR Manoeuvres, just as the Turks with their superior Block 52's armed with AIM120s failed to get a lock on PAF's Block 15's when PAF executed its Anti BVR Drills, this was confirmed by Air Cmdr Muradk. Keep dreaming if your thinking that PAF F16's did not lock on the MIG29's within its kill range, your making the F16 pilot sound extremely stupid if he didn't.

in a war if your PAF not giving air cover that shows the lack and courage.. you can argue that PAF didnt know about the war.. but how long?... it is enough for PAF to know that a war is happening in 30 minutes the first time a cannebera was shot down... a basic air cover is not given by PAF forget F-16 they could have given with any fighter in the invetory... and F-16 being superior it should have sent... you cant say PAF was professional by not crossing LoC ... but what about the men who crossed it??... they dont have professionalism?? come on lame execuses dont make a day... PAF didnt have a chance to fight thats it.. and IAF had courage and professionalism .... thats why we didnt cross LoC...

I love the Double Standard here , IAF is professional because it did not cross the LOC and PAF are a bunch of cowards because they didnt cross the LOC, God you Indians really are hilarious living in your own little world.

No excuses at all, PAF was kept in the dark about the entire operation, its because of Kargil that bad blood existed between PAF and PA for a very long time and only under the tenure of the current COAS and CAS has the trust been regained between the two services. First of all, Pakistan Army was never officially part of the operation, atleast that is what they said. Any crossing of PAF fighters to give cover would have made Pakistan look like the bad guy in the world and a full shooting war between India and Pakistan would have broke out. PAF had no reason to send cover to the Indian side as this was a blunder done by PA, they should have cleaned up the mess and not the PAF. Also i agree with the fact that at the time IAF was in a better position to fight an air war than PAF, but all this talk of IAF easily walking all over the PAF is a bunch of B.S.

Boss, it is common sense that a BVR capable fighter is a nightmare for a non-BVR fighter. Whether it is USAF, IsAF , PAF or IAF. Accept it. A guy with a dagger will definitly fear the oppenent with a revolver coz it can shoot before the other one can approach. Think rationaly sometime than sheer patriotism.

Indeed, if the distance between India and Pakistan was the same as that of the USSR and USA, you would be absolutely right. But when your opponent is right next door and he is well versed with Anti BVR Tactics, the advantage is not that big anymore. Most of the fights between PAF and IAF will be held in WVR combat arena due to the close proximity between both the countries. You guys are placing way too much importance on BVR, its not just my opinion but that of professionals that BVR is an advantage but not that big in an Indo-Pak are

 

[DarK-LorD]

Khan Sahib

Once the MKI's start crossing the border, attrition will kick in and IAF will start loosing fighters, thats a no brainer shooting down an aircraft with an RCS of an elephant. Keep in mind that we will be fighting to our strength and that is combat in WVR, MKI's advantage relies on heavy loads and taking out fighters from stand off ranges. If the IAF does not wants to cross the border and wants to fight from stand off ranges, than sure PAF is in a position now to accept batte from stand off ranges, they can fire the R73 and we will return the favour by firing the AIM120C and SD10B. Another very important factor, besides AD fighters, there are going to be dozens of SAMS lighting up and unleashing their load on the incoming intruder. I think by now its an open secret(thanks to some a** holes on the net) that PAF is in possession of SAMS that have never been published, at least officially by the PAF. Thanks to our Chinese friends we do possess assets that can target bogies at high altitudes and they are deadly accurate.

The biggest gap in recent time in Pakistan's Air Defence was not having top radar coverage in Balochistan; due to MKI's endurance, it could have gone round the Indian Ocean and penetrate from that grey area. That problem has been pretty much solved as PAF has placed additional ground radar assets in the area and the introduction of AWACS will definitely cover that blind spot. If you look at the overall picture of Pakistan's Radar Coverage of our Eastern and Coastal Areas, there are not many blind spots through which the IAF can penetrate unless off course they had the Raptor.

The next war at max will not be more than 2 or 3 days, this is also stated in the new Indian War Doctrine. For that, PAF has enough resources to withstand and carry out their own strike missions against IAF targets. PAF has a record of hitting hard and fast, the organizational deployment and the exercises that PAF has carried out makes it clear that they do have the capability of defending their skies and hitting the enemy back with lightning speed. Dont look too much into the IAF numerical superiority; break this superiority down into Close Air Support, Air Defence, Air Superiority and placing stand by aircrafts near the Chinese border and you will see that numerical superiority disappear. I have my severe doubts about IAF crossing over and reducing the PAF in the rubbles, thats just fanboy talk.

But taking into account IAF's size,this is not enough.By the way even India possess S-300's though not officially acknowledged.Also US ambassador ro Pakistan said in a US diplomatic cable dated 2009 published by Wikileaks PAf won't be able to last against IAF after a few days of war.Remember IAF has added 50 MKI's since 2009.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Khan Sahib

Once the MKI's start crossing the border, attrition will kick in and IAF will start loosing fighters, thats a no brainer shooting down an aircraft with an RCS of an elephant. Keep in mind that we will be fighting to our strength and that is combat in WVR, MKI's advantage relies on heavy loads and taking out fighters from stand off ranges. If the IAF does not wants to cross the border and wants to fight from stand off ranges, than sure PAF is in a position now to accept batte from stand off ranges, they can fire the R73 and we will return the favour by firing the AIM120C and SD10B. Another very important factor, besides AD fighters, there are going to be dozens of SAMS lighting up and unleashing their load on the incoming intruder. I think by now its an open secret(thanks to some a** holes on the net) that PAF is in possession of SAMS that have never been published, at least officially by the PAF. Thanks to our Chinese friends we do possess assets that can target bogies at high altitudes and they are deadly accurate.

The biggest gap in recent time in Pakistan's Air Defence was not having top radar coverage in Balochistan; due to MKI's endurance, it could have gone round the Indian Ocean and penetrate from that grey area. That problem has been pretty much solved as PAF has placed additional ground radar assets in the area and the introduction of AWACS will definitely cover that blind spot. If you look at the overall picture of Pakistan's Radar Coverage of our Eastern and Coastal Areas, there are not many blind spots through which the IAF can penetrate unless off course they had the Raptor.

The next war at max will not be more than 2 or 3 days, this is also stated in the new Indian War Doctrine. For that, PAF has enough resources to withstand and carry out their own strike missions against IAF targets. PAF has a record of hitting hard and fast, the organizational deployment and the exercises that PAF has carried out makes it clear that they do have the capability of defending their skies and hitting the enemy back with lightning speed. Dont look too much into the IAF numerical superiority; break this superiority down into Close Air Support, Air Defence, Air Superiority and placing stand by aircrafts near the Chinese border and you will see that numerical superiority disappear. I have my severe doubts about IAF crossing over and reducing the PAF in the rubbles, thats just fanboy talk.

I agree with most of ur part. But from IAF point of view, thats why we are about to induct Arsenal like air launched Brahmosh to desimated enemy air defences. With all things bearing the same, it will be a hell over fight between IAF and PAF. I guess with great agilitya nd use of jamming and TVC Mki's will be very worthy opponent. Although I assume losses will be high on both sides. No one here is considering MiGs And Mirrages. But i can gurantee u they will also play a very vital role.
Though it is a doctrain of both forces to fight a sort term war but when a war happens it is bound to strech to a long period pf time. Neither any one of us Is USaF nor IraqiAF for a quick conclusion.

So on my opinion war of attiriation will play a major role.

Feel free to disagree. Comments are wellcome.

 

[blackops]

Hilarious, have you ever heard of something called Anti BVR Tactics? I am pretty sure you haven't because you have developed your knowledge reading the Wikipedia , PAF has been practicing Anti BVR Tactics since 1987 when the VVS introduced the MIG29 in Afghanistan. Thus PAF pilots are well versed in performing Anti BVR Manoeuvres, just as the Turks with their superior Block 52's armed with AIM120s failed to get a lock on PAF's Block 15's when PAF executed its Anti BVR Drills, this was confirmed by Air Cmdr Muradk. Keep dreaming if your thinking that PAF F16's did not lock on the MIG29's within its kill range, your making the F16 pilot sound extremely stupid if he didn't.



I love the Double Standard here , IAF is professional because it did not cross the LOC and PAF are a bunch of cowards because they didnt cross the LOC, God you Indians really are hilarious living in your own little world.

No excuses at all, PAF was kept in the dark about the entire operation, its because of Kargil that bad blood existed between PAF and PA for a very long time and only under the tenure of the current COAS and CAS has the trust been regained between the two services. First of all, Pakistan Army was never officially part of the operation, atleast that is what they said. Any crossing of PAF fighters to give cover would have made Pakistan look like the bad guy in the world and a full shooting war between India and Pakistan would have broke out. PAF had no reason to send cover to the Indian side as this was a blunder done by PA, they should have cleaned up the mess and not the PAF. Also i agree with the fact that at the time IAF was in a better position to fight an air war than PAF, but all this talk of IAF easily walking all over the PAF is a bunch of B.S.



Indeed, if the distance between India and Pakistan was the same as that of the USSR and USA, you would be absolutely right. But when your opponent is right next door and he is well versed with Anti BVR Tactics, the advantage is not that big anymore. Most of the fights between PAF and IAF will be held in WVR combat arena due to the close proximity between both the countries. You guys are placing way too much importance on BVR, its not just my opinion but that of professionals that BVR is an advantage but not that big in an Indo-Pak are

Your army was verry well involved in it officialy your govt even showed some names of the dead rest were termed as mujhahidins

 

[SQ8]

Its a cool game why don't you join in some day I'll show how to down a flanker using a viper in knife combat.



I wish I could...........



Somehow the word flanker/Su 30/MKI looms in your head and you're getting into a habbit of not getting into my posts......there are always two meanings one for fanboys and other for intellectual........however please read again.

Heck with any fighter flying..........armed with R-73.........30 mm canon.....plus TVC.......I don't think even F-22 would get as close as 10 km.........never minds its Pakistan after all.

If you still didn't get my point then here it is;
In an attempt to stop an incursion of enemy combat jets in own airspace without escalating to a war or combat situation most fighter planes would prefer a BVR lock.......no pilot would leave its advantageous situation to get into a sticky/suicidal WVR especially when there's a wingman around.......even R-73 is as lethal.
Combat planes aren't Tu-95 bears.



Those 50000 pounds.......have got T/W ratio>1.1 plus TVC......NATO and USAF pilots aren't fools that they rate it higher than their legacy F-15/F-16/Tornados/Mirages/EF2000.......in WVR.




And what makes you think that phalcons and IAF ground radar didn't pick F-16s on the other side and insisted the flankers to get in such a situation that <10km separation remained......I don't expect you to come up with stuff like a 50000 pound jet can be out runned by the Mighty F-16.



Thanks for the advice there are countermeasures available........I have got a couple of my relatives working for IAF.....and I always meet them whenever they get time....Its 4 hour ride from where I stay.......and one of my very close buddy from graduation college has recently been commissioned in technical branch.......so I know what I write when I write.......and upto what extent a professional can disclose about such facts.

Dude either your posts are written in french.. or I suck at English.
since all you seem to be doing is ending up in the same "MKI MKI !" syndrome..
You are bringing in all sorts of statistical variables to somehow show that the IAF was invincible that day.
If that is the only result you wish to seek.
then have it.. and leave the discussion... I have no more time to waste.

 

[Patriot]

I think some people will be in for a ugly surprise if indeed Pakistan and India goes to war.