RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[dbc]

US might think that we betrayed them. I do not blame them. They did do a lot to accommodate us --- according to them. We benefited greatly from this US largesse and continue to benefit. But the mighty 7th fleet was also stopped by the Russians and what happened next in etched on our minds. We cannot forget Russia.

That is a common misconception, the 7th fleet arrived after Pakistan surrendered and had no bearing on the outcome. The fleet remained in the Bay of Bengal for a few weeks and assisted Pakistan with the evacuation of key personnel. Soviet subs, trailed the fleet for the duration but this is something US fleets had grown accustomed to during the cold war. So in a nutshell, the 7th Fleet had no influence on the 71' East Pakistan war. The Soviets did not deter us from maintaining presence in the Bay of Bengal.

 

[ramu]

That is a common misconception, the 7th fleet arrived after Pakistan surrendered and had no bearing on the outcome. The fleet remained in the Bay of Bengal for a few weeks and assisted Pakistan with the evacuation of key personnel. Soviet subs, trailed the fleet for the duration but this is something US fleets had grown accustomed to during the cold war. So in a nutshell, the 7th Fleet had no influence on the 71' East Pakistan war. The Soviets did not deter us from maintaining presence in the Bay of Bengal.

Humour me ... Why did the US threaten India during that period ? Also do not forget India called the bluff and rest is history.

Why not read an account of events from BBC instead of making noises.

 

[khurasaan1]

Now where i believe the IAF and MOD drew the line was in terms of TOT and political reliability of the US as an ally. There is nodoubt i believe in anyone's mind that the US will sanction both India and Pakistan if a war breaks out between both these countries to pressure them to agree to a ceasefire, this is where i believe that IAF and MOD drew the line. They did not want to be at the mercy of the US in case a shooting war breaks out, and i completely respect the stance the Indians have taken. Also another very important factor was the US refusing to share any technology, while the Europeans are desperate for a deal here, LM and Boeing can easily survive without the Indian order.



Nodoubt Sir that there was political pressure from India that forced France to stop any armaments sales to Pakistan, but there is also another very important factor, lack of interest from PAF. The Chinese blew our minds when our engineers saw the avionics they proposed to install on the next batch of JF17's, most of the avionics that were developed for the FC20 will be trickled down to the JF17. The avionics that the Chinese are offering are better in terms of capability than what the French were offering at literally half the price and at very very favourable financing. We are almost about to reach a point where China can fullfill pretty much all the needs of Pakistan's Defence, and we wont have to sacrifice in terms of quality.

Yes! very well said......US is realli a mean and untrustable country ..no matter what .....is good to see that Indianz acted smarter than them and didn't fall into the Yankees traps.......Cuz Yanks are bent to destroy the whole third world for its survival.....
However our needz are excellently fulfilled by China at very reasonable prices.......Alhamdolillah!..................

 

[khurasaan1]

That is a common misconception, the 7th fleet arrived after Pakistan surrendered and had no bearing on the outcome. The fleet remained in the Bay of Bengal for a few weeks and assisted Pakistan with the evacuation of key personnel. Soviet subs, trailed the fleet for the duration but this is something US fleets had grown accustomed to during the cold war. So in a nutshell, the 7th Fleet had no influence on the 71' East Pakistan war. The Soviets did not deter us from maintaining presence in the Bay of Bengal.

Yes! ure right about that ...cuz when Russia is involved then US cant go further into the conflict......

 

[Chanakyaa]

That is a common misconception, the 7th fleet arrived after Pakistan surrendered and had no bearing on the outcome. The fleet remained in the Bay of Bengal for a few weeks and assisted Pakistan with the evacuation of key personnel. Soviet subs, trailed the fleet for the duration but this is something US fleets had grown accustomed to during the cold war. So in a nutshell, the 7th Fleet had no influence on the 71' East Pakistan war. The Soviets did not deter us from maintaining presence in the Bay of Bengal.

INVOLVEMENT OF AMERICA AND SOVIET UNION:​

Pakistan was supported politically and materially by USA. Nixon, backed by Kissinger was afraid of Soviet plans towards the south and southeast. Pakistan was close to China, with whom USA was looking for a rapprochement. A visit was scheduled for February 1972. Nixon reasoned that Indian victory over West Pakistan would lead to total influence of Soviet Union. It would seriously harm the global image of America as well as its new ally – China. In order to prove its credentials to China, Nixon directly violated the US congress imposed bans on Pakistan and sent military support via Jordan and Iran. Parallel to this action China was encouraged to supply arms to Pakistan. The Nixon administration turned a blind eye to reports about genocide in East Pakistan and even ignored the ‘blood telegram.’

When no doubt remained about Pakistan’s defeat Nixon sent a naval ship, USS Enterprise to the Bay of Bengal on 11th December 1971. It was interpreted by India to be a nuclear threat. On 6th and 13th December, the Soviet Union dispatched from Vladivostok, two groups of ships containing nuclear arms as well as a submarine. From 18th December to 7th January 1972 the Soviet ships trailed the US task force.

In 1971, December, 3 the World has become an attestor to a new war between India and Pakistan. At afternoon the Pakistani aviation has strike the Indian cities and airstrips. The Indian PM Indira Gandhi put the country in emergency state and gave the order to nip the aggression. Hard clashes were started on the ground in the air, and at the sea.

Historic document: "Confident. December, 10, 1971. Moscow. For the DM Marshal Andrey Grechko. According to the information from our attaché in Delhi in the first day of conflict the Indian destroyer 'Rajput' has sunk a Pakistani submarine by depth charges. In December, 4 and 9, the Indian fast boats have destroyed and damaged 10 Pakistani battle ships and vessels by the P-15 missiles. In addition 12 oil storages was burned in flame. The Commander of the Military Intelligence Service Gen. Pyotr Ivashutin".

In the same day the Soviet Intelligence has reported that the British Naval group with the leadership of 'Eagle' carrier went closer to the territorial waters of India. The Soviet Government immediately sent a unit of battle ships under the leadership of counter-admiral Vladimir Kruglyakov for helping to the fraternal country.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembes:

"I received the order from the Chief Commander 'To not allow access of the American Navy to the Indian military objects'.

- On the way of American Navy stood the Soviet cruisers, destroyers and atomic submarines equipped with anti-ship missiles.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembers:

"We encircled them and I have targeted the 'Enterprise' by missiles. I have blocked them and didn’t allow enclosing to Karachi, nor to Chittagong or Dhaka".

On the Soviet ships then were only the missiles with limited to 300 km range. Thus, to be sure the rival is under the hindsight the Russian commanders have had to take the risk of maximal enclosing to the American fleet.

Vladimir Kruglyakov, the former (1970-1975) Commander of the 10th Operative Battle Group (Pacific Fleet) remembers:

"The Chief Commander has order me: 'Lift the subs when they (the Americans) appear!' – It was done to demonstrate, there are all the needed in Indian Ocean, including the nuclear submarines. I have lifted them, and they recognized it. Then, we intercepted the American communication. The commander of the Carrier Battle Group was then the counter-admiral Dimon Gordon. He sent the report to the 7th American Fleet Commander: 'Sir, we are too late. There are the Russian atomic submarines here, and a big collection of the battleships'.

The war was then two weeks long, and it has finished by Pakistani forces surrendering.


Bangladesh had won the sympathies of the Soviet Union. The Communist country gave support to the Indian Army as well as to the Mukti Bahini. Soviet Union had reasoned that the independence of Bangladesh would weaken both USA and China. Therefore India was assured of Soviet Union’s support in the Indo-Soviet friendship treaty of August 1971.

 

[dbc]

Humour me ...

Why would I humor a half wit?

 

[Mech]

Why would I humor a half wit?

probably because you're a half wit yourself

 

[dbc]

probably because you're a half wit yourself

...and ramu's boyfriend rushes to his defense ....

 

[notorious_eagle]

All members on this thread, please refrain from personal insults against DBC. She is one of our highly respected members and her knowledge in aviation far trumps ours, so lets give her the respect she deserves because she certainly has mine.

With all due respect you think you are way smarter then IAF experts who worked on all these planes for so long???? Also you are missing some very key requirements of the contract...TOT and Offset.... Buddy let's not forget what i have repeated upteenth time...This is the most transaparent deal in the history of Indian Arms contract...Techincal reasons have been given for the rejection...If IAF prefer agility then who is anybody to challenge it...They are getting what they want...There is no politics here...

I am not smarter than the IAF experts but every evaluation suggests that the American fighters were superior to their competition at half the cost, and not mention the support infrastructure that comes along with it. If you look at the American weapons system, its simply the best in the world and the Europeans can only dream of coming up with a weapon system like that. WVR, BVR, SEAD, A2G, ASW; you name it, they have the best weapon platforms available. I understand your point about the TOT and reliability of the US as a partner, thats why i mention that in my second part of my post. I think us Pakistanis can tell you how reliable of an ally the US is as they have sanctioned us every time during a war; while the Soviets were arming India to the teeth, the Americans had us sanctioned during 65 and 71. This decision was in every way a political decision because the Indians did not want to be at the mercy of the Americans, the IAF was smart enough to look over at their Western borders and see how the US supported Pakistan. This is why the F16 is the last major American military hardware that will be inducted by Pakistan's Armed Forces, the future is either indigenous or with the Chinese.

Good luck with that...However we are not going to choose anything just to deny you anything...i would better wait what comes out of chinese avionics before trashing french one's....

Thanks, but lets be realistic here. India will do everything in its power to deny Pakistan any weapons they can get its hands on, that is why the Indian Government always raises objections and protests whenever Pakistan acquires any weapons platform.

As far as the Chinese avionics are concerned, our pilots and engineers are right in Chengdu getting the testing done. PAF has an entire contingent based in Chengdu for the further development of the JF17 and FC20. They have seen the Chinese avionics and French, they like the Chinese more. I am not trashing French avionics, i am talking about the avionics that were offered to Pakistan because obviously the French are not stupid enough to offer the avionics they have installed on Rafale to Pakistan. The French produce some excellent military hardware platforms, but lets be realistic here, France as a country cannot compete with the Chinese on a long term basis. They simply cannot compete with China's spending power, while the Chinese are putting in billions of dollars to build up their military industry complex, the French are looking at ways to cut their defence budget.

 

[fuse]

Block 52 is better than Rafale and Eurofighter for Pakistan's needs, until they get fitted with AESA we are fine against our threats. Pakistan though should upgrade to Block 60 and order another 18. FC-20 and Super Duper Thunder with AESA khaabo mein laraye karte hein, F-16 = reality for Pakistan so accept it. These fighters still make our enemies poop in fear.

 

[Bang Galore]

All members on this thread, please refrain from personal insults against DBC. She is one of our highly respected members and her knowledge in aviation far trumps ours, so lets give her the respect she deserves because she certainly has mine.

Couldn't agree more though she seems to be a bit high strung these days. She is way too smart to not realise that her "provocative" statements are going to get a few here riled up. Me thinks that she is sitting back & having a good laugh.

I am not smarter than the IAF experts but every evaluation suggests that the American fighters were superior to their competition at half the cost, and not mention the support infrastructure that comes along with it.

The argument that I have usually seen is that it is superior when the price is brought into the equation while possibly scoring slightly below the Europeans in the IAF's evaluation. The argument was/is that the EF costs twice as much as the SH & that that any minor difference in performance does not justify the huge price difference. One of the arguments was that India could buy 400 Sh instead of, say 200 EF. Whether the final price difference stays exactly like that, I don't know but I think that this argument has some merit and whatever made the IAF drop the SH must hopefully be extremely valid. However it must be realised that the Europeans are far more desperate for this order and that they might have offered more than the Americans on technology sharing. Also the Americans may not necessarily offer the best that they have and might not be the best partner when looking at future developments of the platform.(the American role in the NSG would probably be a case in point) A smaller player more dependent on the Indian market has lesser reasons to hold back. I must admit that this is still a bit reminiscent of the old school of thinking & it is possible that the Americans might behave differently. The recent offer(or suggestion thereof) on the F-35 might be an indication of new thinking. We'll just have to wait & see.

My own preference as can be seen my earlier posts on the MMRCA was for a combination of the SH & Gripen. I just thought that Rafale was too untested & the EF too expensive when India already had the Su30mki which would perform a similar role. My main reason for the preference of the SH was because of the AESA radar & its ability to carry a truckload of bombs. The growler would have made a great addition had we got it. Maybe that was the problem, with the U.S., you can't really be sure of getting what you want, only what they deem you should have and our leverage with them is much smaller than with the Europeans.

 

[iPhone]

Very interesting and articulated debate here, Ive been reading past couple of days as a silent observer.

Kudos to miss DBC for posting here, with her professional background and sharing her experience and knowledge.

Indian members presented their side very well, esp deckingraj. I'm in quiet agreement with Indian decision of going with the European package. they had their reservations and whatnot and made their decision withstanding US pressure, if any. Something our side should vie for.

 

[thinkingcap81]

@Bang Galore post #495...

A lot of what you say likely resonates in India's corridors of power. I think that US will very soon treat us differently --- in a positive sense. In the meantime we are yet to find our feet... but better late than never...

 

[DARKY]

...and ramu's boyfriend rushes to his defense ....

So does yours....

All members on this thread, please refrain from personal insults against DBC. She is one of our highly respected members and her knowledge in aviation far trumps ours, so lets give her the respect she deserves because she certainly has mine.

PS; No offence here....just a joke

I am not smarter than the IAF experts but every evaluation suggests that the American fighters were superior to their competition at half the cost, and not mention the support infrastructure that comes along with it. If you look at the American weapons system, its simply the best in the world and the Europeans can only dream of coming up with a weapon system like that. WVR, BVR, SEAD, A2G, ASW; you name it, they have the best weapon platforms available. I understand your point about the TOT and reliability of the US as a partner, thats why i mention that in my second part of my post. I think us Pakistanis can tell you how reliable of an ally the US is as they have sanctioned us every time during a war; while the Soviets were arming India to the teeth, the Americans had us sanctioned during 65 and 71. This decision was in every way a political decision because the Indians did not want to be at the mercy of the Americans, the IAF was smart enough to look over at their Western borders and see how the US supported Pakistan. This is why the F16 is the last major American military hardware that will be inducted by Pakistan's Armed Forces, the future is either indigenous or with the Chinese.



Thanks, but lets be realistic here. India will do everything in its power to deny Pakistan any weapons they can get its hands on, that is why the Indian Government always raises objections and protests whenever Pakistan acquires any weapons platform.

As far as the Chinese avionics are concerned, our pilots and engineers are right in Chengdu getting the testing done. PAF has an entire contingent based in Chengdu for the further development of the JF17 and FC20. They have seen the Chinese avionics and French, they like the Chinese more. I am not trashing French avionics, i am talking about the avionics that were offered to Pakistan because obviously the French are not stupid enough to offer the avionics they have installed on Rafale to Pakistan. The French produce some excellent military hardware platforms, but lets be realistic here, France as a country cannot compete with the Chinese on a long term basis. They simply cannot compete with China's spending power, while the Chinese are putting in billions of dollars to build up their military industry complex, the French are looking at ways to cut their defence budget.

It would be appreciated if you could elaborate on bold parts......I guess USAF aren't smart enough as they have shown a lots of interest in MBDA Meteor......and perhaps would possibly induct them aswell.

Block 52 is better than Rafale and Eurofighter for Pakistan's needs, until they get fitted with AESA we are fine against our threats. Pakistan though should upgrade to Block 60 and order another 18. FC-20 and Super Duper Thunder with AESA khaabo mein laraye karte hein, F-16 = reality for Pakistan so accept it. These fighters still make our enemies poop in fear.

I guess most of the Pakistani members here entertain other views in this regard.

 

[nightcrawler]

Like I said before, Pakistan is fortunate India valued fighter agility for air shows over a comprehensive package for real battles.

...& now I suppose you are hinting (like very western) that Russian flankers/MiGs are useless; I must tell you one thing that not only their planes but also their missiles AAMs/ASM display such manoeuvrability with such ranges that western has just only (with their Meteor) started!! Regarding war proven thing; well only two Atom bombs are war proven what are you trying to prove that they are superior to Titans & Satans?

Regarding India not opting for Amerikans read this :
http://defencedog.blogspot.com/2011/05/mig-failed-but-not-forgotten-mmrca.html