RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[deckingraj]

Thanks for taking time and writing a long one for me....

I don't think you perceive what MastanKhan is saying. He is intentionally not bringing in the off-topic China factor.

I believe i am and no China is not an off-topic...China is the key here...

If US had not outsourced a lot of manufacturing to China, US would be comparatively poorer today --- but would still be numero uno --- and by a fair margin. USSR would have collapsed anyway and China would be nothing of what she is today.

With all due respect you have dis-regard the basic norm of economics and all the hard work that Chinese did...US did not do a favor to China by outsourcing manufactoring...It was the low cost that lured them there...It is because of this low cost they could concentrate on high tech R&D.....China would have anyways arrived in the game irrespective of US...

Now China is a monster --- and will be easily bigger than US very soon. Had US not transferred manufacturing then China would have been what it is today after 15 -20 years at least --- plenty of time for US to to keep expanding. US had not seen this geo-political thing coming.

I think we are in agreement here...However not sure about inability to see this very obvious thing....

Now what ?Who other than India poses a credible challenge to China? So US decides to join hands with us. For this US is having to do similar things to what she did to China. Just notice what Obama is saying --- 'We need manufacturing in US itself'. But still manufacturing will come to India and US is being forced to do it. We greatly benefit from this US proximity.US blundered against China and if DBC's sentiments are widespread then US has blundered with us as well. But what is the nature of this blunder --- a subservient India like UK or an independent yet intellectually pro-US India? The German economy has bounced back and manufacturing has had an important role to play. What manufacturing does Britain have?

What you are calling as blunder i call them as need of the hour...In the past Soviet Union was the arch rival and now it is china...In both context i see perfect sense in what US did....

Notice what DBC says:

Implicit in these statements are the thoughts that US was willing to accommodate India more that even close allies. So what if the F-teens are marginally inferior --- if at all? After all US support to India will boost us. Some of DBC's previous posts indicate this.

Whether or not GoI had the measure of this sentiment or decided that this much was not enough given other US pressures or decided that a more independent foreign policy was expedient will never be known to us. Neither will it be easily known if most US foreign policy think-tanks share DBC's (former and present) sentiments. But i do feel sorry for Ashley Tellis --- he expended a lot of capital to be pro-India. He was given quite a punch.

You are right about it...We will never know but we can use logic and make some calculated guess...India is a democracy and GOI cannot compromise on sovereignty...Indian public will not tolerate it.....this one is fact, rest revolves around it...

At the end of the day there are differences in ways in which US and India behave. US is head above shoulders --- just too superior to all. Great powers recognize greatness --- or at least potential great power. The question is --- are we that confident? How long more before we decide and believe that none dare oppose us for what we feel most about.

I think rejecting US fighters do tell a bit about the confidence...However we are still a poor nation and learning....

A decision has been taken. Live with it. This is not just about F16blk52+ vs Rafael. Its more than that. But the final word has not been said about Indo-US partnership. It is amply clear than a significant chunk still roots for India. Deep inside most Indian politicians and Indian public are pro-US. It pays us to learn from them.

By the time Rafael/EF arrives in India in significant numbers a lot of water would have flown under the bridge. We will be in a better position to speculate about our relationship.

Fighter aircraft comparison --- in 15 years or so Rafael/EF > F16blk60. Then 5th gen stuff comes to play. F16blk52+ and MLUed F16s will be very potent --- but mostly within Pak airspace --- the numbers are too less otherwise.

India is rooting for a slower entanglement with US --- but a sure one at that.

Have no disagreement with anything above...

 

[Bang Galore]

Reconciliation with Pakistan has immense benefits to the United States, I look at it dispassionately and see the greatest benefit is exit from Afghanistan, access to Central Asia and closer cooperation with China. Indian Americans like Tellis sold India as an ideal partner, a relationship between two democratic nations that will define this century some claim. But several years into coaxing, cajoling and indulging India I see no results, no benefits only costs. In the grand scheme of things, India buying US made weapons is of minor consequence, the nations that sell you weapons buy more than 50% of their own weapons from us. So India's rejection of US fighters isn't a blow, neither to the military industry nor to the US administration. But the fact that India eliminated the US fighters despite the President's personal interest and backing sent us a powerful message. And that message is India does not share our vision for future Indo-US ties.

Absolutely no issue with your point. India does not need to share in entirity the American view for India-U.S. ties nor does the U.S. necessarily share India's view on those very same ties in its entirety. The Key point would be whether we can, inspite of differences on some points find mutually acceptable accommodation. Your point seems to be that we can't & while you are certainly entitled to that view, it does not seem to be shared by many others in the U.S..

Then there is the Typhoon an aircraft that needs the Tornado as a crutch in Libya, an aircraft that does not have an AESA, the presence of the Typhoon in the down select is proof India wants to avoid US fighters at all cost.

Only in your opinion. There was no way, given the recent scandals that the MoD or the CCS were going to overrule the IAF on this one. The F-16's presence in the competition was a little more than a joke, since the IAF was never interested in that aircraft. If the F18 is such a great aircraft, maybe the USAF must consider buying them & using them for the next 40 years.

So I'll conclude this post and all further discussion on the matter by stating I don't hate India, but I love my country. I don't see relations with India benefiting my country to the contrary it is hurting us.

Fair enough. None of us hate the U.S. either but we can live without the "relationship" if the price (as implied by your post) for that is complete subservience to U.S. views on matters that concern India's security. We are only some 60 odd years out of a similar relationship & thanks but no thanks, we are in no tearing hurry to be in a similar position

 

[MastanKhan]

Thinkingcap81 / deckinraj,

Thank you for your posts----. Inida will never do u s's biding to stand up to china-------it may do it at its own behest but not to please the u s----. But if that was the idea sold to the u s by the middlemen and women----then they lied to the u s and put it together---.

China is not out of the picture---when it comes to outsourcing----. Cost to the u s is tremednous---the blue collar middle claas is going going-----. As china and india are grwoing fast---their usage of fossil fuel has increased by a multitude----which I think the u s never thought of that----which has resulted in china going every where and buying oil concessions through any means possible----.

Even if the u s corporations are getting rich----the effects have not come down to the average middle class and they will not----.

This outsourcing blunder is of the same magnitude or severe than giving the russians the blue prints to the nuc bomb and the rolls royce engines in the 40's----.

India basically has the u s by the 'ball' joints----it can squirm and can holler, but the u s is going nowhere this time for awhile---the indians have a firm grip on the family jewels for the time being.

The rejection of the F 16's and the F 18's is heartfelt in the u s---because the americans thought that no one would have the audacity to reject that offer----seems like there is a first for everything.

Looking at india----it had to do something special to stop france from selling its jf17 package to pakistan---.

 

[deckingraj]

Trust me Mastan Khan Sahib...i have so much regard for you that i hate to write anything which is contradicting your view....but then here i am...So apologies in advance...

Thinkingcap81 / deckinraj,

Thank you for your posts----. Inida will never do u s's biding to stand up to china-------it may do it at its own behest but not to please the u s----. But if that was the idea sold to the u s by the middlemen and women----then they lied to the u s and put it together---.China is not out of the picture---when it comes to outsourcing----. Cost to the u s is tremednous---the blue collar middle claas is going going-----. As china and india are grwoing fast---their usage of fossil fuel has increased by a multitude----which I think the u s never thought of that----which has resulted in china going every where and buying oil concessions through any means possible----.

There is a reason i respect you...and this is why... I am with you so far...

Even if the u s corporations are getting rich----the effects have not come down to the average middle class and they will not----.

Unfortunately this is the truth of capatilist economy...Rich get's richer and poor gets poorer..India is growing rapidly however we are also facing the same problem..In short this issue is not US specific....The only solace is that when rich get's richer they do produce more jobs and the rest of the populace get a small piece of the pie..which is still better than nothing...

This outsourcing blunder is of the same magnitude or severe than giving the russians the blue prints to the nuc bomb and the rolls royce engines in the 40's----.

With times things change...Today world is global world...Denying Russia blue prints of nukes might have slowed their progress but not thrown them out of competition...However there is pros and cons for everything...What we are missing in this entire debate is the benefits that oursourcing brings back to the yankees and the amount of R&D it sponsor....

India basically has the u s by the 'ball' joints----it can squirm and can holler, but the u s is going nowhere this time for awhile---the indians have a firm grip on the family jewels for the time being.

Well we have worked very hard for it...600 million youth is a power projection in its own(have side effects as well)...However US is and going to remain the sole super-power for a considerable time...

The rejection of the F 16's and the F 18's is heartfelt in the u s---because the americans thought that no one would have the audacity to reject that offer----seems like there is a first for everything.

I agree there is a first for everything...In india NAM is the principle and yankees need to respect that...I am for no relations than compromising on this aspect...Rest not sure what happens at the back end...When 18 block 52's were sanctioned for Pak there was lot of hue and cry in India that how come US do this to us...However if we go by wikileaks all India wanted from US was to make is sound like they are not India specific...

Looking at india----it had to do something special to stop france from selling its jf17 package to pakistan---.

I still believe the decision is not political...b/w we all might get surprised if Eurofighter see the end of tunnel...Anyways going for rafael just to stop JF-17 avionics and in turn antagonizing US and there by opening doors for the obsession of PAF i.e. F-16's is not a smart move by my standards...I am sure people in strategic department are many notches smarter than me......

 

[notorious_eagle]

Only in your opinion. There was no way, given the recent scandals that the MoD or the CCS were going to overrule the IAF on this one. The F-16's presence in the competition was a little more than a joke, since the IAF was never interested in that aircraft. If the F18 is such a great aircraft, maybe the USAF must consider buying them & using them for the next 40 years.

Out of the entire competition, the F16's and the SH met the criteria perfectly for what the IAF was looking for. IAF was looking for a fighter aircraft that was a a true multi role aircraft, something that can drop bombs with precision and fight its way out. If you look at the avionics, radar and weapons system, those present on American fighters, they are superior to those present on Rafale and EF. The upgrades that EF and Rafale have envisioned, are all reliant on funding provided by India because the manufacturing countries are unwilling to provide further funding for these projects. Whatever EF and Rafale offer in terms of capabilities, the F16 and SH provide those capabilities or in some cases superior at nearly half the price. So capability wise the American fighters were superior to their counterparts.

Now where i believe the IAF and MOD drew the line was in terms of TOT and political reliability of the US as an ally. There is nodoubt i believe in anyone's mind that the US will sanction both India and Pakistan if a war breaks out between both these countries to pressure them to agree to a ceasefire, this is where i believe that IAF and MOD drew the line. They did not want to be at the mercy of the US in case a shooting war breaks out, and i completely respect the stance the Indians have taken. Also another very important factor was the US refusing to share any technology, while the Europeans are desperate for a deal here, LM and Boeing can easily survive without the Indian order.

Looking at india----it had to do something special to stop france from selling its jf17 package to pakistan---.

Nodoubt Sir that there was political pressure from India that forced France to stop any armaments sales to Pakistan, but there is also another very important factor, lack of interest from PAF. The Chinese blew our minds when our engineers saw the avionics they proposed to install on the next batch of JF17's, most of the avionics that were developed for the FC20 will be trickled down to the JF17. The avionics that the Chinese are offering are better in terms of capability than what the French were offering at literally half the price and at very very favourable financing. We are almost about to reach a point where China can fullfill pretty much all the needs of Pakistan's Defence, and we wont have to sacrifice in terms of quality.

 

[MastanKhan]

Trust me Mastan Khan Sahib...i have so much regard for you that i hate to write anything which is contradicting your view....but then here i am...So apologies in advance...


Deckinraj,

My friend---please don't put me on pedastal from where, whence I fall---there is no coming back. Secondly---if you don't critique what I write---it is neither being fair to me---and nor to yourself---how can I learn to make myself better, if I don't know and see what your perspective is---what you are thinking---where you are coming from---.

People understand that Clinton and presidents after him had a great empathy for the indian and chinese public---. They truly wanted to do something to make their lives better---and you know what----it is all a matter of timing----you had Clinton and then Bush----and then you had ASHLEY TELLIS-----I have not read anything about Mr tellis just a brief few lines last night---and then I searched and found his picture----I wanted to see the face of the person who made it happen----and I looked and stared at his face for a longtime---as I could not see him talk----that was the only resource to see inside of him----.

Hindustan is fortunate to have people like him to endorse it----anyway going back to rafale----the u s wanted a similiar relationship with india as it had with israel---. What the indians are not realizing it out of shortsightedness is that the u s would not treat it like pakistan when under duress----due to political and financial prowess of india----. Basically india is too big to be politcally strong armed by a vote of sanction by a u s congressman----my feeling is that india didnot look at itself through that looking glass----. I mean to say---it takes time to understand and visualize your place and position in the world when everbody bashed you so recently for being so poor.

It is just like a grown man----whose mother has been saying to him----you are stupid---you are acting like a child---you are no good----start acting like and adult----and that man visualises himself in that form and format that his parent adressed him in.

India the successful---would not have thought in that manner----. Anyway----the f16 and F18 were just the begining----what the americans didnot offer today----they would have given it tomorrow---that is how they are. At the end of the day----it would not have mattered for india if france sold the rafale to pakistan or thales sold the electronics package to pakistan---in the long term---india would have come way ahead with the u s fighters.

The f16 / F18 purchase was the biggest concern that pak had----. Now the american hardware is available again---it gives us another oppurtunity for an equalizer in some form.

You had a good thing going with the americans----that speed breaker should not have been put there---. Ashley Tellis can't believe what has happened to him dream----.

 

[dbc]

The f16 / F18 purchase was the biggest fear that pak had----. Now the american hardware is available again---it gives us another oppurtunity for an equalizer in some form.

Yes, Pakistan dodged a bullet Indian acquisition of American fighters will have had some of the following consequences for PAF:
- AIM-9X and AMRAAM two battle proven missiles, the ONLY missiles to be tested against real maneuvering supersonic fighters F-4 Phantom and F-16 target drones.
- Pilot training tools such as the 'dome trainer', the dome trainer allows air crews to simulate close in AIM-9X tactics in a 360° virtual reality dome.

- American AESA, with unmatched capability- radar that can ID missiles at 80NM not to mention radar modes our European allies haven't even dreamed of and then there is the ability to use the AESA as a powerful jammer.
- air to ground, air to air, anti-radiation, decoy missiles - munitions for every conceivable battle need, the cheapest most effective weapons available anywhere.

- Software tools such as BLUEMAX (Mission-Threat Analysis),RADGUNS,BRL-CAD & FASTGEN, COVART, AJEM. These tools are part of a comprehensive mission planning suite that can be used to predict and model possible outcomes of aerial action including the likelihood of combat losses.

Like I said before, Pakistan is fortunate India valued fighter agility for air shows over a comprehensive package for real battles.

 

[MastanKhan]

DBC,

Thank you very much for such an informative post----. I had absolutely no idea what the package would have comprised of----but I knew this from the gitgo that it would have ended up way beyond the expectations of the indians----.

My feeling is that India didnot want to pay the boogieman for those goodies and toys----it feared in its heart for the biddings it would have to do. I mean to say----compare it to israel to face down the arabs----and india to come face to face with china---it is not one and the same thing---.

 

[Mech]

DBC,

Thank you very much for such an informative post----. I had absolutely no idea what the package would have comprised of----but I knew this from the gitgo that it would have ended up way beyond the expectations of the indians----.

My feeling is that India didnot want to pay the boogieman for those goodies and toys----it feared in its heart for the biddings it would have to do. I mean to say----compare it to israel to face down the arabs----and india to come face to face with china---it is not one and the same thing---.

radar wasn't offered due to our refusal to sign end user agreements. So.......yeah, i think my point is obvious

 

[SpArK]

Yes, Pakistan dodged a bullet Indian acquisition of American fighters will have had some of the following consequences for PAF:
- AIM-9X and AMRAAM two battle proven missiles, the ONLY missiles to be tested against real maneuvering supersonic fighters F-4 Phantom and F-16 target drones.
- Pilot training tools such as the 'dome trainer', the dome trainer allows air crews to simulate close in AIM-9X tactics in a 360° virtual reality dome.

- American AESA, with unmatched capability- radar that can ID missiles at 80NM not to mention radar modes our European allies haven't even dreamed of and then there is the ability to use the AESA as a powerful jammer.
- air to ground, air to air, anti-radiation, decoy missiles - munitions for every conceivable battle need, the cheapest most effective weapons available anywhere.

- Software tools such as BLUEMAX (Mission-Threat Analysis),RADGUNS,BRL-CAD & FASTGEN, COVART, AJEM. These tools are part of a comprehensive mission planning suite that can be used to predict and model possible outcomes of aerial action including the likelihood of combat losses.

Like I said before, Pakistan is fortunate India valued fighter agility for air shows over a comprehensive package for real battles.

Yup and the new bunch of procurements by Japanese, Turkish, Saudis,UAE's, Europeans, Brasil on the Eurocanards over the F-16s are plain stupidness .

Sad they dont have anybody like DBC int their "thinking" ranks.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

DBC now talks with prejudice hence these statements!
Dassault and EADS have adequate experience to design and build combat effective jets and it would be ignorant to think otherwise.

 

[dbc]

Yup and the new bunch of procurements by Japanese, Turkish, Saudis,UAE's, Europeans, Brasil on the Eurocanards over the F-16s are plain stupidness .

Sad they dont have anybody like DBC int their "thinking" ranks.

Wow! Mr Multimedia has an opinion, all I have ever seen him do is post videos.
Well Mr Multimedia, no one has bought the Rafale yet!
As for the Eurofighter its only non European customer - the Saudi's took plenty of money in bribes, a well known fact if you would have taken the time to look it up.

 

[MastanKhan]

people,

Let us not be disrespectful to the poster----disagree, but please let us not talk down.

Indians need to understand----you were the blue eyed boy for the americans---F16in/F18 was just a foot into the door---after that you had the carte blanche.

 

[SpArK]

Wow! Mr Multimedia has an opinion, all I have ever seen him do is post videos.
Well Mr Multimedia, no one has bought the Rafale yet!
As for the Eurofighter its only non European customer - the Saudi's took plenty of money in bribes, a well known fact if you would have taken the time to look it up.

Mr Multimedia also writes.. Its just aint 10000 multimedia pics and vids all over the forum.Well i wont be surprised if you bring Rafale too along.


And yes the procurements are all bribes.

 

[dbc]

DBC now talks with prejudice hence these statements!
Dassault and EADS have adequate experience to design and build combat effective jets and it would be ignorant to think otherwise.

Did I say Dassault and EADS can't build jets? Do you know if MICA was ever tested against a real fighter plane? The AIM-9X destroyed 22 F-4's in its first year of testing. Do you know if the Typhoon or the Rafale was ever blown up with air to air missiles to test combat survivability? The F/A-18 E/F has been tested to destruction against every type of missile at our facility in China Lake. Do you know if the French offer training tools such as 'The Dome'?

If you think my post is prejudiced please by all means expose me as a liar.