RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[notorious_eagle]

It would be appreciated if you could elaborate on bold parts......I guess USAF aren't smart enough as they have shown a lots of interest in MBDA Meteor......and perhaps would possibly induct them aswell.

They did show some interest but no contract was signed, they eventually went with the AIM120D which available right now as compared to Meteor which will be available in 2015. Knowing how capable Raytheon is, i am willing to bet by that time they will have a superior BVRAAM already operational. But if you want me to expand more on the American weapons system, sure i can.

BVR: AIM120D, simply the best BVRAAM in the world. The sheer testing this missile has been put through should tell you volumes of its capabilities, only BVRAAM in the world to be tested against live aircrafts.
WVR: AIM9X
SEAD: AGM88 HARM
A2G: Mavericks, JDAMS, GBU 10 and 12
ASM: Harpoon II

These are some of the mainstay weapons i have named from the top of my head, you are more than welcome to Google more.

As you can see, no country in the world comes close to the US when it comes to weapons systems. Fact is, Europeans can simply not compete against the US as they simply don't share the same threat perception as the US, this is why they are reducing their defence budgets and the effect is trickling down on their militaries. Another very important factor, the economies of scale. The sheer numbers of weapons systems that the US companies produce makes them much cheaper e.g AIM120D costs $700k as compared to MBDA Meteor which costs a million pounds.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I see a lots of pride over here from indian members---pride in dealing with the u s---well that is fine and good---and you are ecstatic and excited that you stood upto the u s on your own grounds----well--good for you.

But remember this----this does not bode well with the weapons suppliers and sellers---they would end up wanting to prove that their is better than others---so in order to prove that their is better---they would want to equip the opponent with some nice goodies just to prove their point to make their opponent look bad.

 

[dbc]

She is way too smart to not realise that her "provocative" statements are going to get a few here riled up. Me thinks that she is sitting back & having a good laugh.

You know me well I'm just pissed that I read India wrong for the second time. I just hate being wrong - a character flaw I'm working on-without much success as you can clearly see .

 

[rockstarIN]

Hi,


But remember this----this does not bode well with the weapons suppliers and sellers---they would end up wanting to prove that their is better than others---so in order to prove that their is better---they would want to equip the opponent with some nice goodies just to prove their point to make their opponent look bad.

Hi.

We already tested in MMRCA the nice goodies which they can offer the opponent, even more sophisticated..

 

[ramu]

...and ramu's boyfriend rushes to his defense ....

Well thanks for that. What can I say about a t**t who knows nothing above civil discussions.

 

[ramu]

Hi,

I see a lots of pride over here from indian members---pride in dealing with the u s---well that is fine and good---and you are ecstatic and excited that you stood upto the u s on your own grounds----well--good for you.

But remember this----this does not bode well with the weapons suppliers and sellers---they would end up wanting to prove that their is better than others---so in order to prove that their is better---they would want to equip the opponent with some nice goodies just to prove their point to make their opponent look bad.

This is a typical response from US but Pakistan knows very well how dependable US can be. Paksitan is now in China's arms and US has made this happen and hastened the process to a large extent. About China, forget China buying military goodies from US. So your point please ...

 

[kingdurgaking]

You know me well I'm just pissed that I read India wrong for the second time. I just hate being wrong - a character flaw I'm working on-without much success as you can clearly see .

why are you taking things so personal? chill what is supposed to happen will happen.. and this is not your style right?.. you are more technical person and you suit more in that kind of discussion... There is no need to take a dig with us... we have done nothing wrong ... and you haven't done anything.. Further US has more places to fish.... India is not the only Pond...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Rafale should be compared with J10B , as these planes are more compatible and on same level

 

[thinkingcap81]

Hi,

I see a lots of pride over here from indian members---pride in dealing with the u s---well that is fine and good---and you are ecstatic and excited that you stood upto the u s on your own grounds----well--good for you.

But remember this----this does not bode well with the weapons suppliers and sellers---they would end up wanting to prove that their is better than others---so in order to prove that their is better---they would want to equip the opponent with some nice goodies just to prove their point to make their opponent look bad.

Anyone who speaks of ONLY pride and nothing else in rejecting the American fighters is plain foolish. Lots of bravado involved. Go to gym --- pump iron --- and then squeak from the heart.

Sure there is some pride involved. What do you expect us to say? “We did it! We said NO to to the US of A --- fantastic --- now time to jump into a hole...”

Quite a few of my friends continuously said that Americans are not to be trusted and we have nothing to gain from them --- and i said --- you ignore their outstretched hand of friendship at your own peril. The relationship is asymmetric --- so what --- we will outgrow this.

We have our insecurities --- we watched what they did to a couple of others --- and we decided to play safe. Any thinking person will understand why US treats Pakistan and Israel differently --- and we also know that right now that India is no Israel --- the Americans may be thinking otherwise - maybe --- but we do not have a mind reader with us.

Coming back to the Americans to prove their tech as better than the Europeans --- do they really need to prove anything? They would do it to show that things can get very asymmetric. But i don't think that things will totally reverse --- some extent yes. Nothing in the long term to cause creases on our forehead. At best they will need to show that they come out of Afghanistan all guns blazing.

Going by some reports our IAF chief said that he would like to have American weapons on the MMRCA aircraft. The overall package will be mouth-watering. MKI --- take a backseat. Not likely to happen now.

MMRCA deal is a great show-piece --- the best. But there are many areas of our economy where the US corporations will have a field day --- and will benefit more than MMRCA.

You know me well I'm just pissed that I read India wrong for the second time. I just hate being wrong - a character flaw I'm working on-without much success as you can clearly see .

DBC --- you didn't read us wrong --- but didn't read us right either.

Just consider --- we have just experienced a history of close to 1000 years of subjugation. During most of that period we might have been one of the world's largest economies but we were dissipating fast. Some invaders assimilated well into our system and enriched us as well --- but in a lot of memories they were invasions --- very successful ones. And then the East India Company --- what to tell of it... We had almost forgotten of our illustrious past --- our great subcontinent.

As recently as our 1998 nuke tests you sanctioned us. History has made us have long memories. What is a decade in international relations? For you maybe, not for us...

I love my country --- as you do yours. I belong to that generation that saw our 1990-1991 economic crisis --- too young to understand it. And now things have started to look different.

You haven't understood us. There are multiple Indias and yet cohesive --- bound by culture. We will not behave like you --- not right now.

It is a privilege to be in a land that that just begun to find its feet --- just began to look up --- and reach for the stars. It is the experience of a lifetime. Not every person will have this exhilarating experience --- not you. It takes time to jump...

Come join us --- its the leap of a billion hearts...

 

[Storm Force]

F16 are a legacy USA fighter. Theyares being phased over the next decade both in USA and in NATO by fifth generation. fighters

AFTER THE BLOCK 60 & BLOCK 70 the USA will invest zero $$$ on improving the weapons and sensors etc that go with this machine beyond 2020.

in short by 2025 it will be approaching obselence.

IAF wanted a MMRCA that will last as a front line fighter until 2040..

F18 super hornets Rafale & Typhoon will all achieve this. NOT i repeat NOT F16

SECONDLY again very importantly the AESA radar came with DOWNGRADED capability it was not full usa standard. not a smart move by USA

Thirdly both EADS & Dassult will not insist on end user monitoring and will not pose the sanction threat of the USA fighters.

Fourth and MOST importantly THE ACM of INDIA ACTUALLY SUGGESTED all six contenders are fantastic fighters and there was little to choose between them in capability.

IN other words the USA legacy teens are not simply the best and recent excercises with both rafale & typhoon prove their rank as being the next best things in the air after F22 & F35.

India will make the smart choice AND its looking like this baby

 

[MastanKhan]

You know me well I'm just pissed that I read India wrong for the second time. I just hate being wrong - a character flaw I'm working on-without much success as you can clearly see .

DBC,

That is the worst mistake ever, a foreigner makes when just starting to deal with indians.

The standards of negotians takes you to a totally different pleateau never ever experienced before---.

DBC----the character base that you are basing your judgement upon, regarding the deal making will not work in this case. This is deal making of a totally different kind.

 

[SBD-3]

F16 are a legacy USA fighter. Theyares being phased over the next decade both in USA and in NATO by fifth generation. fighters

AFTER THE BLOCK 60 & BLOCK 70 the USA will invest zero $$$ on improving the weapons and sensors etc that go with this machine beyond 2020.

in short by 2025 it will be approaching obselence.

IAF wanted a MMRCA that will last as a front line fighter until 2040..

F18 super hornets Rafale & Typhoon will all achieve this. NOT i repeat NOT F16

SECONDLY again very importantly the AESA radar came with DOWNGRADED capability it was not full usa standard. not a smart move by USA

Thirdly both EADS & Dassult will not insist on end user monitoring and will not pose the sanction threat of the USA fighters.

Fourth and MOST importantly THE ACM of INDIA ACTUALLY SUGGESTED all six contenders are fantastic fighters and there was little to choose between them in capability.

IN other words the USA legacy teens are not simply the best and recent excercises with both rafale & typhoon prove their rank as being the next best things in the air after F22 & F35.

India will make the smart choice AND its looking like this baby

Firstly, As long as airforces around the world are operating Falcons, its upgrade packages will be on offer, for example. The SABR radar is a product for F-16, offereing capabilities of AESA but with much lower maintainence costs. Whether you like it or not, F-16 will be flying far into the future. It is a fantastic platform which can be used as both fornt line or backbone aircraft, even if it does not stay in front line its maintainance ease will certainly be a help for a backbone role.
Secondly, once market is introduced with 5th gen export varients, what will be the prospect of EFT and Rafale? The issue with both of these is that these planes were envisaged for front line service, where an airforce can afford to spend extra money. With JSF,PAK-FA or JXX entring export market, these platforms will have to compete with 5th Gen, as marketed by respective manufacturers (which is a dangerous startegy IMHO as any airforce looking for a front end fighter wont mind spending extra 20 million USD over 80 to get a 5th Gen rather than a 4.5++). If i were a military planner, i would have kept an easy to maintain platform so if there circumstances change, the platform would be adaptable to a host of not only operational but also strategic roles.
Thirdly, how many customers are there of these platforms as compared to Falcon? Given the 5th Gen export prospectus, do you consider the price tags of these aircrafts to be competitive? with already small customer base, there will be a small prospect of future upgrade packages.

 

[deckingraj]

AI am not smarter than the IAF experts but every evaluation suggests that the American fighters were superior to their competition at half the cost, and not mention the support infrastructure that comes along with it. If you look at the American weapons system, its simply the best in the world and the Europeans can only dream of coming up with a weapon system like that. WVR, BVR, SEAD, A2G, ASW; you name it, they have the best weapon platforms available.

Dude how do you about the evaluation findings of IAF???...Look there are 600 parameters involved here and we both don't know the details..right??? My point is not to contest which is best...my point is - this decision is not politial....In fact it is foolish to say the decision is political...

I understand your point about the TOT and reliability of the US as a partner, thats why i mention that in my second part of my post. I think us Pakistanis can tell you how reliable of an ally the US is as they have sanctioned us every time during a war; while the Soviets were arming India to the teeth, the Americans had us sanctioned during 65 and 71. This decision was in every way a political decision because the Indians did not want to be at the mercy of the Americans, the IAF was smart enough to look over at their Western borders and see how the US supported Pakistan. This is why the F16 is the last major American military hardware that will be inducted by Pakistan's Armed Forces, the future is either indigenous or with the Chinese.

You will not induct any plane in place of F-16 if they are not promising...This is as simple as that.....Same is true for J-10.....For example JF-17 is not choosen because it is sanction free...It has been chosen because PAF believes that once fully developed this plane can give adversary run for its money...Now put the same logic for IAF decision...

Thanks, but lets be realistic here. India will do everything in its power to deny Pakistan any weapons they can get its hands on, that is why the Indian Government always raises objections and protests whenever Pakistan acquires any weapons platform.

Yes, let's be realistic here..I agree that Indian govt. will go everything to deny you weapons but and a big but "Not at our cost.."...We will not chose a sub-standard item just to deny you...and as said had that been the moto we should have gone for F-18's with a condition that no more F-16's for you...Out of all these planes F-16 is the one that you can somewhat afford and will love to go for...no????

As far as the Chinese avionics are concerned, our pilots and engineers are right in Chengdu getting the testing done. PAF has an entire contingent based in Chengdu for the further development of the JF17 and FC20. They have seen the Chinese avionics and French, they like the Chinese more. I am not trashing French avionics, i am talking about the avionics that were offered to Pakistan because obviously the French are not stupid enough to offer the avionics they have installed on Rafale to Pakistan. The French produce some excellent military hardware platforms, but lets be realistic here, France as a country cannot compete with the Chinese on a long term basis. They simply cannot compete with China's spending power, while the Chinese are putting in billions of dollars to build up their military industry complex, the French are looking at ways to cut their defence budget.

I have no appetite for this debate...It looks like you are telling me that JF-17 avionics deal was put on hold by Pakistan because they got a better deal with Chinese...If that is true than that's it...Even we have billions to spend but no where close to French avionics or anything like that...Not saying Chinese avionics are trash but without seeing something out it is hard to believe that Chinese are offering better avionics than French..Howver as a deal it might be better to go for chinese ....One more thing R&D is not just about money...there is lot more out there..

 

[Storm Force]

During the next indo pak KICK OFF the PaKISTANIS will see forthemselves WHY IAF did not buy the F16 OR F18 MMRCA.

Those 18 block 52S + 45 MLU F16 will be STARVED OF SPARES and munitions.

There will be fatigues and damage and PAF will need service spares and missles,

BUT USA will stop at nothing to stop the WAR asap.

" THAT IS ONE OF 4 MAJOR REASONS " why IAF was sm,art to go for euro canards

remember IAF has used british & french fighters for 50 years

usa planes never....

 

[deckingraj]

During the next indo pak KICK OFF the PaKISTANIS will see forthemselves WHY IAF did not buy the F16 OR F18 MMRCA.

Those 18 block 52S + 45 MLU F16 will be STARVED OF SPARES and munitions.

There will be fatigues and damage and PAF will need service spares and missles,

BUT USA will stop at nothing to stop the WAR asap.

" THAT IS ONE OF 4 MAJOR REASONS " why IAF was sm,art to go for euro canards

remember IAF has used british & french fighters for 50 years

usa planes never....

b/w what are other three reasons???