RAFALE VS F-16 BLOCK52+

[MastanKhan]

quality of this post is as high as post of Joe shearer. very good post.

IND151----drunken-monke-----welcome to the forum

 

[Luftwaffe]

notorious_eagle...my friend; google for the Typhoon customers. Typhoon is offering more then F-15/F-16/F-18s. Surely Saudis count they bought it and they are now the customer nobody can deny that. Future is bright for the Typhoon, how is Typhoon a decade late.

By your logic Chinese are also into illogical projects developing 4th generation and 4.5 generation fighters at the same time. So the question is Why Chinese are investing in J-11s/JH-7s/FC-1s/J-10s why not focus on 5th generation only. No Chinese are not fool nor are Europeans. Please understand more then 100 Tornados were there for A2G role but now requirements have changed. Your superstar F-16s around the world are both used for A2A/A2G, do you not think Typhoons can do what Vipers can do. Don't live in that sortie cost thing in war you'll be spending 3 times more and what will you guys do when the rest of the world enters the era of 5th generation still the rant of cost will loom? this habit must end..

Libyan conflict is important to mention because no matter what Typhoon has demonstrated its A2G role for the last 3 months that is a big plus point.

 

[muse]

To my thinking all these arguments are deeply flawed, at least so far as PAF ought to be concerned -- Pakistan needs aircraft it can manufacture, operate and maintain, in substantial numbers - and it's clear that these aircraft cannot be any Western aircraft - with the West, our focus should be particular sub-systems, avionics, guidance systems, electro-optical sensors and such.

 

[Luftwaffe]

To my thinking all these arguments are deeply flawed, at least so far as PAF ought to be concerned -- Pakistan needs aircraft it can manufacture, operate and maintain, in substantial numbers - and it's clear that these aircraft cannot be any Western aircraft - with the West, our focus should be particular sub-systems, avionics, guidance systems, electro-optical sensors and such.

The problem is PAF is having the trouble getting these as well. We aren't even getting armed Falco UAV so to think of getting western avionics is a bit far fetched but lets hope.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The strike missions with the tornado and typhoon---interesting ain't they---could have been those 18 qatari mirages with 18 blk 52's ---deceit and deception right next to each other.

" SPECTRA's capabilities were trusted to the extent that French pilots began operations against Libya without the need for SEAD support aircraft or cruise missile bombardment".

As I stated before, french are very poor salesmen----but do they make a system for war or what---all by themselves---put down and let down the europeans and americans---the french have learnt to use their abilities in a very unique manner---.

It was a bad mistake on the part of paf to make france not like you---a heavy heavy price to pay---in case of thales and eads---. How out of touch has an organization got to be, to get on the bad side of the french----an organization that has some very serious issues---.

The rafale has been an aircraft under rated by its opponents---the french took on the oppurtunity to prove its worth in libya.

 

[muse]

The problem is PAF is having the trouble getting these as well. We aren't even getting armed Falco UAV so to think of getting western avionics is a bit far fetched but lets hope.

Then we have to develop the targeting and fire control features either ourselves or with assistance -- and please spare us the "no one will help us" bit, it's a world of commercial concerns.

 

[ramu]

Then we have to develop the targeting and fire control features either ourselves or with assistance -- and please spare us the "no one will help us" bit, it's a world of commercial concerns.

Look for help from China : Economically, bilaterally and politically it is an opportunity for China.

 

[500]

Rafale is slightly better than F-16 block 52+. But I dont see anything that justifices about two times bigger price. Everything what Rafale can do can be done by block52+ as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

Rafale is slightly better than F-16 block 52+. But I dont see anything that justifices about two times bigger price. Everything what Rafale can do can be done by block52+ as well.

Hi,

The issue is of the nature of sanctions from U S----if blk 52 is our only primary aircraft---the u s has our ballz in our hands----but if we have diversity---like the rafale alongwith the blk 52-----that gives us an edge---the u s has to think seriously---do they really want to do it----also it won't hurt our capabilities as much---thirdly---we won't have to face off the rafale alongwith the su30's---and as we would have had rafales for many a years by now----we would have been well trained to operate those aircraft to it max capabilities.

The americans could not neutralize our radars as they could on the blk 52 nor could they neutralize the amraams 120's flying off from the blk 52's.

 

[araz]

Evaluating...and approval..
A couple of different things.

eg

Rafale.. We had done the deal for the Agosta's.. Money is the best diplomatic overture to the French.
Two Evaluation flights were done.. Aircraft found exceeding expectations.. not in a nice way when it came to the costs.. just for the jets and its associated equipment, logistical changes etc.

EF. One eval flight taken.. (by eval, means a full op pilot getting a checkride in the jet).. Jet found meeting all expectations..
diplomatic relations with one partner country found lacking expectations.. Sanction free requirement found not meeting expectations at all.

Gripen.. Jet found too similar in ASR req for mainstay future ADA fighters.. without offering significant A2G advances.

Mig-29.. Jet found good for A2A.. sucked at A2G
Su-27 with Su-30 roadmap.. Jet found appealing with european electronics.. Indian lobby not found appealing.

F-16.. jet sanction prone, big no no.. jet does however, allow for a large off market purchase of spare parts..
Logistical costs for jet found to be much less when compared to european alternatives.. good 5-8 year stop gap.. jet bought.

J-10.. jet first evaluated, found meeting some ASR requirements.. Jet sanction free, Jet customizable , Jet has lots of space for improvement.
Improve as you wish, without tech export barriers. Jet can be improved to match or exceed performances of contemporaries.
Jet also costs less than contemporaries.
Buy the Jet.

Santro
Unfortunately due to my poor computer skills, you have attributed to Luftwaffa, part of my response to his post.I am having difficulties with multiple quotes as irrespective of how I try, it becomes part of the post of the poster when the response comes out.
regards
Araz

 

[araz]

Hi,

It is called DUE DILIGENCE ---- which means that have you done the best to your capabilities and abilities and resources ----have you done all you can ---and the bottom line on this judgement day is no ---- . Where does the money issue come into force--- the problem was that paf was mentally not ready to part with 85 mil per aircraft for the rafale---- because they had their beauty available at 50 mil ---or not ready to pay 40 mil per aircraft for the qatari mirages---.

In every major weapons purchase time is of essence --- once you fall back and with limited resources, there is hardly any time to catchup---and that is what has happened over here --- paf was over zealous about its jf 17 project---it was over zealous in procuring the J 10b --- and not understanding the peculiarities of integration, cancelled deals, no weapons system ready for their air craft, engine issues -----is there an ending to this list.

The projection of jf 17 was----the plane is going to get ready and it will be ready for service --- and I was screaming my head off ---integration integration integration---- 5 to 10 years time for integration ---- and even one of our very senior retd. air force officers disagreed with me ----says maybe 1 year--- I got lambasted on this issue from every senior member from mods to admins TT etc on this site --- and I am saying to myself --- all these reading that I have done, even if it is fiction---everyone talks about 'integration' how difficult and time consuming integration is --- the failures ----the set backs --- contractors balking --- political pressures --- weapons problems --- engine issues --- a myriads of things that go wrong --- .

I did not have the right word for it before ----now it did come to me --- integration is like a gestation period. It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby ---- it takes 5 to 10 years for an aircraft to be fully integrated into service--- from the date of first full time production date ---.

And it has not changed for the jf 17 either----after it gets its fully operational sd 10 and an appropriate radar, it will be in that time frame.

With india --- it has always been force projection---they have always looked at the 'parity factor' between the defence and strike forces as well as pakistan's political and economic position.

All pakistan needed to do is to stay within the 80% capabilitiy of what they have---not in numbers but in mano a mano abitilty for the fighter aircraft to take out the opponent--- and that is where paf has faltered badly----. cont

my Brother Mastan Khan
One of my problems with debating with you is that you go off on tangents without answering any of the posts I have taken the trouble to respond to. Your verbose poetic prose carefullly avoids any of the counter arguments and hides the fallacy of a weak argument to again and again point to the one argument that you have. I really cant find any substance to argue against.So good luck to your flights of poetic fancies and have a good day Sir!!
Kind regards
Araz

 

[araz]

To my thinking all these arguments are deeply flawed, at least so far as PAF ought to be concerned -- Pakistan needs aircraft it can manufacture, operate and maintain, in substantial numbers - and it's clear that these aircraft cannot be any Western aircraft - with the West, our focus should be particular sub-systems, avionics, guidance systems, electro-optical sensors and such.

Muse
You have hit it on the head. This is the only plausible solution to PAF problem. We need to progress on from just buying to having in house capabilities to build in part or whole aircrafts to fulfill our gaping needs for replacing a largely obsolete fleet. How do we do that with limited reserves? We certainly cant do anything with the west as the prices of their aircrafts are far too high. We also have problems with the US on whom we have largely relied over the years to meet our aircraft needs. So the only other option for us is to go for in house development with chinese help. This is the way forward and with the rapid strides the chinese are taking,strategically as well it seems a much better option to build your infrastructure along with a developing power with whom your interests coincide strategically. This in my view is the only way ahead available to us in the current environment of mistrust and greed that we live in. Whatever we dont have we will have to buy, beg, borrow _____!
Araz
Araz

 

[araz]

Said the man who cant take anything negative about India..
talk about jumping on the bandwagon..


Integration, procurement...
Perhaps the fountain of kickbacks that came with the rafale went unnoticed..
Or the redundancy of buying 12 mirage 2000's.. and then spending the equivalent of a force "integrating" their supply chain..

Perhaps one should look at the model of automobiles and their integration and introduction process.. instead of hopping with glee when a naysayer.. a respected one at that.. but still a naysayer comes up with an argument.
Wonder why the whole world cries fleet commonality.. why the spare parts of a car with a production run of 100000 cost much less than those of a production run of about 1000.
Why its usually more profitable to set up entire showrooms for the former type of car than the latter..

The PAF obsession with the F-16.. should have ended back in the 90's if not for the country's dire finances..
many cried aghast when the PAF again purchased Block 52's.. As if being bitten three times was not enough.
However.. what none saw was the short term solution the F-16 provided.
It can be delivered quicker.. it took less time, less money to train its pilots..
and less time to "integrate" it into the PAF's force.
For all the media whines.. the interviews..
Nothing stops the PAF from sending these jets wherever they wish.
And whilst there are the bells and whistles for it if we try to pry it open.. to take a deeper peek inside or let the Chinese take one.
There are no bells and whistles, nor shut off switches that stop this aircraft from flying across the border and dropping a JDAM or two.

The less said the better about the JF..
It is where it needs to be in its lifecycle today.

The J-10B, is the tip of the sword till the 2025 timeframe...
Its decided, approved.. by people who have spent their entire lives in the AF, Who have flown and trained with the Americans, The Brits..
The only thing that comes between such well-though out endeavors.. and not short sighted .. cherry seeking expensive purchases.. is the usual sycophantic Machiavellian suckups that roam the halls of AHQ..
Such people are easy prey for defense contractors.. and the bureaucratic kickback waterfall.

There is a fine line between a cautious approach.. and habitual pessimism.
Had the PAF kept the latter, it would be in worse shape than it is today..
A logistical, educational and operational nightmare.

If there was a way of double applauding this post I would. Strategic arm chair Generals of this forum are forgetting that our pockets are empty and we are being shunned by every one bar China to please our rich neighbour. We have to wake up and smell the coffee, get off our- - - - and do some thing about it.The PAF solution is inhouse development __ Something which no other airforce has done. Whatever one might say the PAF has taken a decision which most of us do agree with and see the logic in. With the chinese, our collaboration will bear fruits as we have insight due to our experiences which can be shared to make mutually beneficial strides
Araz

 

[araz]

Hi,

The issue is of the nature of sanctions from U S----if blk 52 is our only primary aircraft---the u s has our ballz in our hands----but if we have diversity---like the rafale alongwith the blk 52-----that gives us an edge---the u s has to think seriously---do they really want to do it----also it won't hurt our capabilities as much---thirdly---we won't have to face off the rafale alongwith the su30's---and as we would have had rafales for many a years by now----we would have been well trained to operate those aircraft to it max capabilities.

The americans could not neutralize our radars as they could on the blk 52 nor could they neutralize the amraams 120's flying off from the blk 52's.

The myth of kill switches has been rebuffed by Retd AVM Shahid LAteef. He stated on record that PAF is free to take its aircrafts where ever it wants in case of hostilities. So that one has been put to sleep.
Araz

 

[ramu]

The myth of kill switches has been rebuffed by Retd AVM Shahid LAteef. He stated on record that PAF is free to take its aircrafts where ever it wants in case of hostilities. So that one has been put to sleep.
Araz

It will take a real war more likely with the US to put that one to rest. The hostilities between US and Pakistan at this rate will give all enough news on that. However, the topic here is F16 vs Rafale right ?