Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[anant_s]

hahah thanks , this jingle should be on every Pakistani

Every peace loving person, if i may add.

 

[rockstar08]

Every peace loving person, if i may add.

Exactly ...

now lets back to topic , i am already on hit list of some mods to be banned permanently

 

[Dash]

Because it was as stupid request in the first place. You really think a top notch western arms manufacturer would put themselves in that position? This has been discussed here, and let's be honest, this is HAL we are talking about....not exactly the best example when it comes to quality and delivery. The problem is, if Dassault agrees and HAL screws up, it is Dassault that is on the hook........they won't get the full payment. Perhaps, India can pay in full and that way Dassault can agree......that India won't block the funds for the work already done/in progress.

This is a stance that India has for Civil nuclear deal too, Its called the nuclear liability law, where the Owner is responsible for any mishaps/issues and not the contractor, which is Atomic energy commission of India. French, Russian, except USA have agreed to that clause. So if French can agree there, whey not here or say Dassult?, because they want a preferred partner like Reliance and not HAL. Dassult will compromise the offset rules with Reliance, but not with HAL, thats another problem and which is why MOD is so hesitant.

Eventually HAL will manufacture and Dassult will agree. Its just a case of good supervision and HAL can deliver. Albeit with a delay, but I wont mind a delay here.

The European participants are eager to sell the Eurofighter to India. Question is how much and if they do TOT as India has demanded.

The stand on TOT is never in question, Eurofighter can fulfill the same TOT like Rafale. thats a non issue. The bigger issue is quality control and offset distribution.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Because it was as stupid request in the first place. You really think a top notch western arms manufacturer would put themselves in that position? This has been discussed here, and let's be honest, this is HAL we are talking about....not exactly the best example when it comes to quality and delivery. The problem is, if Dassault agrees and HAL screws up, it is Dassault that is on the hook........they won't get the full payment. Perhaps, India can pay in full and that way Dassault can agree......that India won't block the funds for the work already done/in progress.

Eurofighter won't agree as well......ask any sane laywer...and they'll tell you the demand is ridiculous. Of course Dassault has full responsibility for the 18 aircraft they make....but how can they be accountable for the next 108 aircraft.....parts for which would be coming from Indian suppliers??

You know.....what happened with the Migs with their cheap/used parts? They weren't MIG approved and India had the flying coffin dilemma.

@SarthakGanguly @amardeep mishra @PlanetWarrior @Skull and Bones @SpArK @sancho

Abey oh.....sign the deal...or at least lobby for it to drop this demand.......You should have enough faith in your HAL that they can do the job well.....afterall Indians claim they made the Su30MKI and Tejas....so what's the big deal in 'assembling' a fighter?

I've said this before and let me repeat my sentiments on this issue:


Band kero yeh topi drama.

If India wants to go robust on its "Make in India" campaign, it needs to adopt the Chinese model. It needs to grow b@lls and start with a full throttle on invention/innovation;design and assembly. It needs to invest funds in all those sectors.Don has a valid point here. Expecting a third party to carry the warranty for HAL is ludicrous. It is either that the Make in India campaign kicks off or it remains in the dustbin with 100% outside purchase. If BJP puts their money where their mouth is , this will be binding on any future government and will be the start of something new not only for India but also its neighbors including Pakistan. I say this for the simple reason that if India goes full throttle on its Make in India campaign, it will require service providers from Bangladesh and its neighbors possible including Pakistan. This will give an incentive to those neighbors to start their own Make locally policies. Who knows what the future could hold for South Asia if this takes off ?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

If India wants to go robust on its "Make in India" campaign, it needs to adopt the Chinese model. It needs to grow b@lls and start with a full throttle on invention/innovation;design and assembly. It needs to invest funds in all those sectors.Don has a valid point here. Expecting a third party to carry the warranty for HAL is ludicrous. It is either that the Make in India campaign kicks off or it remains in the dustbin with 100% outside purchase. If BJP puts their money where their mouth is , this will be binding on any future government and will be the start of something new not only for India but also its neighbors including Pakistan. I say this for the simple reason that if India goes full throttle on its Make in India campaign, it will require service providers from Bangladesh and its neighbors possible including Pakistan. This will give an incentive to those neighbors to start their own Make locally policies. Who knows what the future could hold for South Asia if this takes off ?

We should try to improve the Chinese model to an extent. Copies are fine, but quality should also be maintained. A number of local projects(in India) have already started - way more than the last 20 years put together. We will see the results in 2 to 3 years. Rest are correct.

 

[arbit]

Normally to get ECE(electronics and com) in IIT B you need to get an AIR of below 100- which means you need to be exceptionally brilliant! and when i say exceptionally brilliant i mean it- i dont think you have seen someone with an AIR of below 500- blieve me you would never form such an opinion and judging by your description i think it is highly likely that he'd be a mtech from IIT B and not a Btech.Believe me, it is FAR EASIER to get an admission into harvard ,princeton,cornell,AMU than getting into top 5 IITs! getting a GRE score of 330 is pretty easy than getting a top rank in either JEE or GATE. The highest and lowest GRE score from my batch were 334 and 320 respectively

My mate who incidentally lived next door to mine in IITB could code 2000 lines in a night (Error free). We smoked weed all day, watched naruto and what not and he scored 99.99 percentile in CAT. He finally ended up joining a financial company for pecuniary reasons though.
Infact the true meaning of 'appearance can be deceiving in academic context' can be seen there. My entire batch is scattered all over the globe, and only a very few of them are in research or are studying further. And the guys i studied with could walk into any top college any day.
I believe the guy he met might have done his Masters from IIT but Bachelors from some other college.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Exactltly 100 DAYS are left till 31 March 2015

If we dont hear any good news by 31 March then it is Good bye Rafale

 

[Dash]

Expecting a third party to carry the warranty for HAL is ludicrous

Why do you thing it is ridiculous? Dont we have similar modus operandi in other deals??

 

[The Great One]

Exactltly 100 DAYS are left till 31 March 2015

If we dont hear any good news by 31 March then it is Good bye Rafale

Says who
Rafale has had plenty of deadlines now and wasn't cancelled at the end of any of them. If a deal is not going to be struck by March, then we'll have news by January itself - 'Negotiations are going well, they have been put on the fast track, we have full confidence that a deal will be struck by XO/XO/XO'.

 

[OrionHunter]

Because it was as stupid request in the first place. You really think a top notch western arms manufacturer would put themselves in that position? This has been discussed here, and let's be honest, this is HAL we are talking about....not exactly the best example when it comes to quality and delivery. The problem is, if Dassault agrees and HAL screws up, it is Dassault that is on the hook........they won't get the full payment. Perhaps, India can pay in full and that way Dassault can agree......that India won't block the funds for the work already done/in progress.

Eurofighter won't agree as well......ask any sane laywer...and they'll tell you the demand is ridiculous. Of course Dassault has full responsibility for the 18 aircraft they make....but how can they be accountable for the next 108 aircraft.....parts for which would be coming from Indian suppliers??

You know.....what happened with the Migs with their cheap/used parts? They weren't MIG approved and India had the flying coffin dilemma.

@SarthakGanguly @amardeep mishra @PlanetWarrior @Skull and Bones @SpArK @sancho

Abey oh.....sign the deal...or at least lobby for it to drop this demand.......You should have enough faith in your HAL that they can do the job well.....afterall Indians claim they made the Su30MKI and Tejas....so what's the big deal in 'assembling' a fighter?

Band kero yeh topi drama.

Ok! For once I agree with you! And that say's a lot!

 

[axisofevil]

Good. Where is that French Onion who was so confident of France signing this deal with India. I would love to shove this in his face!


Why the preference for Reliance over HAL?

 

[Hellfire]

The fact that Dassault hasn't been able to sell Rafale to more customers makes the 126 machine deal with India, a must for not just Dassault but for French defence industry as a whole.
There is no doubt that Europe as a whole is going through a very rough period as far as economy is concerned and i don't think France would want this opportunity to slip away that has potential to create huge number of jobs.
This puts India is somewhat of an advantageous position but i guess some deadline must be put in place. Not necessarily for signing the deal, but taking a call if we really wish to go with Rafale or should another alternate (EFT in this case) be considered.

Again the issue is not whether to go for Rafael or not. It is with what offsets and how much to milk them. If HAL gets its act together, we are today in a very good position to get a great deal on any defence deal from a multitude of sources. With the present government employing the technique of getting technocrats and other non-politicos purely on merit basis as consultants, we should see some kind of improvement in defence too. But then, even our defence "experts" tend to get swayed by the mega bucks in the biz. Lets see how this plays out

Honest comments from other side of border and totally acceptable and not a single line i can say is not honest and favoring India. This is first phase to cleanup your mass and learn from it.. We need a people like you in other side of border

.

A donkey is a donkey, cant call it a prize winning horse in any possible scenario .... I try to be objective and critical of both sides .....

 

[Trawllu]

Are you dumb ?

no he is bangladeshi

dont insult dumb people by comapring them to BDforever

 

[halloweene]

OK. Latest insider news. HAL, MOD and DA have agreement. Point is CNC is not (be it right or not) confident on HAL and is the one asking for Rafale team (remember, Dassault is only 30% of it in terms of value) 100% liability. And NO it was not in RFP. Believe me or not.

 

[Abingdonboy]

OK. Latest insider news. HAL, MOD and DA have agreement. Point is CNC is not (be it right or not) confident on HAL and is the one asking for Rafale team (remember, Dassault is only 30% of it in terms of value) 100% liability. And NO it was not in RFP. Believe me or not.

So have the CNC's demands (according to you) been met? Is there forward movement on this deal now or still stalled (according to the media)?