Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder

[It.is.all.mudi's.fault]

God you have no freakng clue about what you're talking about do you? You CAN'T USE A HEAVY FGHTER FOR A MEDIUM/ LIGHT ROLE or vice versa. Heavy is not just weight, it's range carriage capacity and avionics. You build an entire AF out of heavy fighters your costs will go through the roof. Not just in purchase price but also operationally- fuel and maintainence wise. Plus, FGFA is strategic asset designed for deep offensive strikes, not the kind of muti-role medium attacks that MMRCA performs. Did we use Su 30 in Kargiil? No. We used Mirages mostly, which is the kind of role we want to fulfill. Your posts are just incredibly ignorant of any understanding of this.

As usual; perfectly said reverend, perfectly.

These heathen Pagans do not have technology of "father, son, and holy ghost" hence these lowlife heathens were not able to use Su-30 which they acquired in 2002 in a war which took place in 1999. Brother Brian, these heathens could not even imagine what "love of Jesus" could achieve. It is beyond their intellectual capacity to fathom.

Rather, all the vendors should realize that ignoring India's demands may reduce their deal to 1/4th of the original deal.

Rafale was a classic management case of a company failing to assess the changing market conditions and trying to sell their hi-tech CRT TVs for top prices in the age of LED TVs. Let me summarize it point by point.

1. Rafale was one of the most modern and technologically advanced aircraft back in 2001 when the MMRCA deal was conceived. But it dragged on for close to one and a half decade without any sign of completion.

2. Even if the deal was completed by 2015 as per the original plan of importing 18 aircrafts and making the rest of 108 in India, HAL would have started delivering the aircrafts somewhere around 2022 or 2025 going by the complexity of the things and pace of its operation.

3. But by that time LCA MK-2 would have been in production, more importantly, the more advanced 5th generation PAK-FA/FGFA jointly being developed by India and Russia would be in production, needless to say that with ToT and source codes.

4. So, essentially Rafale would have become an old design by the time it would have been in production in India. More importantly, our 5th gen FGFAs would have been similarly priced against Rafale, further making the Rafale a bad deal.

5. Considering the situation, it does not make sense to order Rafale in such big numbers when we will have better alternatives during the same timeline, give and take 2-3 years maximum.

6. Neither it makes any sense to pay top dollars for the FULL ToT of a rather old 4th gen aircraft design, it will be much more cheaper for us to buy separately the technologies that we need from French or other sources, like technologies for fighter jet engines, radar, etc.

7. At the same time, we cannot ignore the fast depleting strength of our air force. Hence, the 36 Rafale deal to just plug the hole for the time being, a hole that was created by the previous government by its indecision and utter lack of pro-activeness.

I hope I have answered your queries and concerns to your full satisfaction.

Feel free to reply for any further queries and/or clarification that you might have, I will be happy to help you.

Thank you.

Heathen Pagan, there is no place for your witchcraft in Reverend Nair's galaxy of logic.

 

[dray]

well thats what DM wants but IAF wants 4 more squads of rafale and navy isalso interested in some 24-26 rafale Ms

I think DM will convince the IAF to settle for alternatives. Considering the timeline, Rafale is no more that relevant as it used to be. Please check my previous post.

Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder | Page 4

 

[GURU DUTT]

I think DM will convince the IAF with lateral thinking and IAF will settle for alternatives. Considering the timeline, Rafale is no more that relevant as it used to be. Please check my previous post.

Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder | Page 4

well as per my "chirria" DM wants and has given IAF a "deal they cant refuse"

3 Squads of fully french built Rafales

4 squads of LCA MK 1 which will be given a booster shot of new AESA & new cockpit layowt and possiballi a better engine

6 squads of LCA MK2

AMCA is given the most attention and will be getting the major boost in years to come

FGFA numbers will be reduced

 

[uparyupari]

France got what they wanted all along, right?

They wanted India to buy their jets off-the-shelf from France (made in France), without any ToT.

30% offset is mandatory for France. So they still have to invest 30% of the contract cost in India and do the necessary ToT.

 

[dray]

well as per my "chirria" DM wants and has given IAF a "deal they cant refuse"

3 Squads of fully french built Rafales

4 squads of LCA MK 1 which will be given a booster shot of new AESA & new cockpit layowt and possiballi a better engine

6 squads of LCA MK2

AMCA is given the most attention and will be getting the major boost in years to come

FGFA numbers will be reduced

Very much possible, but I think MoD will not reduce FGFA numbers considering the doubts over HAL to deliver AMCA on time, or deliver it at all. In any case FGFA is our joint development, we will have even better control over it compared to MKIs. Rafale will be reduced to a stop gap only.

It's like if you are too late for your evening tiffin, you might want to skip it and settle for an early / pre-poned dinner, maybe with a light snacks thrown in between. Just check how MoD is trying to expedite the PAK-FA/FGFA as well as LCA MK-2 delivery.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Very much possible, but I think MoD will not reduce FGFA numbers considering the doubts over HAL to deliver AMCA on time, or deliver it at all. In any case FGFA is our joint development, we will have even better control over it compared to MKIs. Rafale will be reduced to a stop gap only.

It's like if you are too late for your evening tiffin, you might want to skip it and settle for an early / pre-poned dinner, maybe with a light snacks thrown in between. Just check how MoD is trying to expedite the PAK-FA/FGFA as well as LCA MK-2 delivery.

of all the paltforms in pipeline both PMO & DM are persnolligivingtoo much importence to improoved LCA MK1 & AMCA some say since new DM came he has iniciated R&D for at least 3 6th gen platforms and the best of three will get the AMCA contract

as for the orignal numbers as asked by IAF for Rafale & FGFA would be slshed to almost half

 

[Guynextdoor2]

If it's for real,Dassault got what they wanted since the begining....
RAFAEL ( ) built in France without any TOT,they didn't give up the negociations,we don't joke with Dassault.
What will India do then ? Buy more SU30 ? Tejas ?

There was always EFT, Mig 35, F-16 Viper and Grippen. This is a deal you have won because of muddled decision making and luck, and it is not usual. The negos should have been tougher. In the end without this deal Dassault would have been in financial trouble. This is a badly played hand.

Very much possible, but I think MoD will not reduce FGFA numbers considering the doubts over HAL to deliver AMCA on time, or deliver it at all. In any case FGFA is our joint development, we will have even better control over it compared to MKIs. Rafale will be reduced to a stop gap only.

It's like if you are too late for your evening tiffin, you might want to skip it and settle for an early / pre-poned dinner, maybe with a light snacks thrown in between. Just check how MoD is trying to expedite the PAK-FA/FGFA as well as LCA MK-2 delivery.

It's like....'I make this stuff as I go along the way'. I mean this is the biggest load of horeshit I've read, even among your posts.

 

[temp1994]

God you have no freakng clue about what you're talking about do you? You CAN'T USE A HEAVY FGHTER FOR A MEDIUM/ LIGHT ROLE or vice versa. Heavy is not just weight, it's range carriage capacity and avionics. You build an entire AF out of heavy fighters your costs will go through the roof. Not just in purchase price but also operationally- fuel and maintainence wise. Plus, FGFA is strategic asset designed for deep offensive strikes, not the kind of muti-role medium attacks that MMRCA performs. Did we use Su 30 in Kargiil? No. We used Mirages mostly, which is the kind of role we want to fulfill. Your posts are just incredibly ignorant of any understanding of this.

You are smoking some fine Afghani mixed with dog $hit.

How could Su-30 be used in Kargil war when it was inducted into IAF in 2002?

And who says Heavy fighters could not do same job as medium weight or light fighters?

Heavy fighter could even do job of a biplane. It only cost more to use heavy fighter to do job of a light fighter.

 

[WAR-rior]

France got what they wanted all along, right?

They wanted India to buy their jets off-the-shelf from France (made in France), without any ToT.

That's limited sight of yours my friend. You ignore the fact that the order became from 126 to 36..
You tell me, as a seller would you consider this as 'getting what you want'? Just wanna check your business sense.

On the other side the whole intent of 126 MMRCA was to replace obsolete Mig-21s. Now India has chosen to replace them with same platform Tejas and rest with Rafales n FGFA.

Now Rafales were costing 20bn up from earlier 12bn and FGFA contract is understood to be of 25bn.

Now you tell me. As a businessmen what would you have done? Gone for 126 Rafales? Or gone for a mix of indigenous + Top European technology + 5th gen plane. And all for not very high price than of 1st option.

Will be interesting to see you business sense.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

I think DM will convince the IAF to settle for alternatives. Considering the timeline, Rafale is no more that relevant as it used to be. Please check my previous post.

Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder | Page 4

you are even recommending said posts to other people......

 

[temp1994]

If it's for real,Dassault got what they wanted since the begining....
RAFAEL ( ) built in France without any TOT,they didn't give up the negociations,we don't joke with Dassault.
What will India do then ? Buy more SU30 ? Tejas ?

Obstinacy cuts both ways.

In G toG deal without ToT, number of aircraft would be pared down to bare minimum ; probably around 60.

Dassault may have got what it wish, but it got it in muss less quantity than it would have wanted. Original MMRCA contract was worth 20 Billion+ .

 

[dray]

It's like....'I make this stuff as I go along the way'. I mean this is the biggest load of horeshit I've read, even among your posts.

First lesson of management, you have to be flexible and ready for improvisation in a highly fluid scenario to cope with the ever-changing realities, those who fail to do that lose out in the game. Lateral thinking, evaluating newly emerging options, everything is needed for a sound decision making, which the present government just did.

Btw, let's make it unanimous that you are terribly short of logic here.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

That's limited sight of yours my friend. You ignore the fact that the order became from 126 to 36..
You tell me, as a seller would you consider this as 'getting what you want'? Just wanna check your business sense.

On the other side the whole intent of 126 MMRCA was to replace obsolete Mig-21s. Now India has chosen to replace them with same platform Tejas and rest with Rafales n FGFA.

Now Rafales were costing 20bn up from earlier 12bn and FGFA contract is understood to be of 25bn.

Now you tell me. As a businessmen what would you have done? Gone for 126 Rafales? Or gone for a mix of indigenous + Top European technology + 5th gen plane. And all for not very high price than of 1st option.

Will be interesting to see you business sense.

Dude, which indigenous jet are you talking about? The LCA Mk2 cannot fulfill the medium role, doesn't have range endurance or loitering time. FGFA is just too big operationally to play this role.

 

[dray]

you are even recommending said posts to other people......

 

[Guynextdoor2]

First lesson of management, you have to be flexible and ready for improvisation in a highly fluid scenario to cope with the ever-changing realities, those who fail to do that lose out in the game. Lateral thinking, evaluating newly emerging options, everything is needed for a sound decision making, which the present government just did.

Btw, let's make it unanimous that you are terribly short of logic here.

You're cooking stuff up. That's called being on pot not lateral thinking.....