Rafale deal: Modi's Parisian blunder

[Sugarcane]

............Most baniyas are morons anyways. ........... baniyas are jerks.........Modi simply lacks "education"........... He is merely a "loudspeaker".

 

[dray]

yeah, more BS don't make the original BS you have written and less BSy. Don't tell anyone in the AF that you're comparing Rafale Af wiith FGFA AF, they'll laugh . And you just decided to mixup the figher classes on your own . You're suggesting a point defence fighter with low loitering time to replace a medium class fighter? Other a deep penetration and strike fighter with a medium role fighter. Man the stuff you need to cook up to defend these is just AMAZING . And like I said, all fighters in the competition are more than 15 years old.

It is difficult to figure out what you are trying to say among the tons of "BS"s that you have written in your post, most likely from the dearth of logic that you might be facing right now. However, you didn't explain why we should not compare the Rafale with FGFA when they were supposed to come at a similar time frame and at a similar price point? Is there anything that is lacking in FGFA? Or is it the more advanced one? I would request you to focus and come up with some credible logic.

 

[Secur]

Have we become lower in intelligence like the Pakistani's then?
Their constant barometer of a good or bad action is whether or not Indians are supporting it.

Take any action on its own merit.. 124 Rafales is not possible with our budget. It is equally important to arm the IAF for minimum capability. Therefore, instead of 6 squadrons initially planned, 3 will be acquired directly from France.

The remaining squadrons can be filled up by the technologically lower but far cheaper LCA in numbers which would be a bigger boost to our economy.

Lower in intelligence? OK, do tell me something. Why isn't buying 124 Rafale(s) possible with your current budget? I am quite sure when the Indian Govt along with its military conceived the longest running reality show in the history of defense acquisitions in 2004 spanning 11 years and ending in an instant, it would have made certain that there was enough money available to procure 126 aircraft (initial requirement) back then. Even if the cost has escalated to such point, why have the numbers dropped to 36? Has your economy grown worse under Modi?

France got what they wanted all along, right?

They wanted India to buy their jets off-the-shelf from France (made in France), without any ToT.

If your Govt was negotiating such deal, do you think it would take it 11 years to reach a decision to buy 36 fighters? And even that is "just agreed in principle" for now.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

It is difficult to figure out what you are trying to say among the tons of "BS"s that you have written in your post, most likely from the dearth of logic that you might be facing right now. However, you didn't explain why we should not compare the Rafale with FGFA when they were supposed to come at a similar time frame and at a similar price point? Is there anything that is lacking in FGFA? Or is it the more advanced one? I would request you to focus and come up with some credible logic.

God you have no freakng clue about what you're talking about do you? You CAN'T USE A HEAVY FGHTER FOR A MEDIUM/ LIGHT ROLE or vice versa. Heavy is not just weight, it's range carriage capacity and avionics. You build an entire AF out of heavy fighters your costs will go through the roof. Not just in purchase price but also operationally- fuel and maintainence wise. Plus, FGFA is strategic asset designed for deep offensive strikes, not the kind of muti-role medium attacks that MMRCA performs. Did we use Su 30 in Kargiil? No. We used Mirages mostly, which is the kind of role we want to fulfill. Your posts are just incredibly ignorant of any understanding of this.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

If your Govt was negotiating such deal, do you think it would take it 11 years to reach a decision to buy 36 fighters? And even that is "just agreed in principle" for now.

Well the Chinese government goes for the long-term view.

So even if Lenovo and Huawei are not as good as Dell or Apple, well that doesn't matter. What matters is they are ours.

Same with military technology. It's important that we are able to produce all of our own weapons platforms during wartime (considering China's enormous manufacturing base, that is a big advantage) without having to ask other countries.

I think Modi is trying to go for the long-term view as well. By buying only 36 jets, they have plenty of money left over to invest in indigenous defence industries. It is 1 or 2 decades too late, but late is certainly better than never.

 

[migflug]

Rafale was nt just fighter dead. After a decade of negotiation we could nt scrap it. it was more of prestige in international market, france support in security council as well as an strategic partner . we cant afford rafale at such huge price . Also there were many loop holes in rpf itself (as stated by MP) . dassault was nt willing to partner with hal .And many more fcuking reasons

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Guynextdoor2
Bro i understand your view point and i endorse your anger you are feeling atm.
What MMRCA deal left us was without any choice. In DM MP own words- Vortex. Thats how he defined the whole thing.
GOI committed a mistake. Its not about UPA or BJP but i am saying GOI committed a mistake.
Long back the when the 40 jets were offered we should have taken them then only and kept negotiating MMRCA differently.
Hope we all learn our lessons. including the Namo government that TOT in true sense is always an expensive proposition and for buying such a proposition you need to have 1.Large amounts of $ Money 2. Capability or Defence Ecosystem to sustain and suppport such a project.

A good question to ask is if suppose instead of HAL if Reliance was allowed with the same MMRCA configuration of TOT what would have been the cost of jets produced or the deal cost in total and time frame.

If we replace say Reliance with a JV of say private sector and HAL as junior partner then what would have been the cost of the whole deal and time frame.

These analysis if made public could have made us evaluate everything better. But then MMRCA made HAL in India only the possible candidate.

In terms of weakening position, we have to wait for some more time to really understand if we have really compromised or was it a master stroke. In the words of DM MP, he said again and again these 36 jets and perhaps 18 follow on to be strategic. This may indicate a one off purchase for SFC and nuclear role alone. Hence then our whole logic of compromise may fall flat as the urgency is purely for deterrence purpose.

Thats why i said lets wait for some more time and then come to a more fruitful conclusion.

 

[dray]

God you have no freakng clue about what you're talking about do you? You CAN'T USE A HEAVY FGHTER FOR A MEDIUM/ LIGHT ROLE or vice versa. Heavy is not just weight, it's range carriage capacity and avionics. You build an entire AF out of heavy fighters your costs will go through the roof. Not just in purchase price but also operationally- fuel and maintainence wise. Plus, FGFA is strategic asset designed for deep offensive strikes, not the kind of muti-role medium attacks that MMRCA performs. Did we use Su 30 in Kargiil? No. We used Mirages mostly, which is the kind of role we want to fulfill. Your posts are just incredibly ignorant of any understanding of this.

Again, you didn't compare the cost of purchase, cost of operation, cost of maintenance, and capabilities of Rafale and FGFA. Do that, and then try to answer in a cohesive manner.

 

[Gabriel92]

36+ 18 looks like and no further TOT.

If it's for real,Dassault got what they wanted since the begining....
RAFAEL ( ) built in France without any TOT,they didn't give up the negociations,we don't joke with Dassault.
What will India do then ? Buy more SU30 ? Tejas ?

 

[tsinga]

Lower in intelligence? OK, do tell me something. Why isn't buying 124 Rafale(s) possible with your current budget? I am quite sure when the Indian Govt along with its military conceived the longest running reality show in the history of defense acquisitions in 2004 spanning 11 years and ending in an instant, it would have made certain that there was enough money available to procure 126 aircraft (initial requirement) back then. Even if the cost has escalated to such point, why have the numbers dropped to 36? Has your economy grown worse under Modi?



If your Govt was negotiating such deal, do you think it would take it 11 years to reach a decision to buy 36 fighters? And even that is "just agreed in principle" for now.

Its actually quite simple had you read the associated statements and work of the current DM.

It is the constant follies of the previous government all manifesting themselves. The problems started from the get go.
The IAF was not given a budget in the first place. They were simply told to select the aircraft they want. So IAF with abandon selected the most technologically advanced plane without any cost considerations.

Secondly, the Government has failed to make IAF or IA/IN make a choice within its budget. They are asked to select what they want and then the govt may or may not give it.

The better way - as the current DM - is doing is tell the forces the budget they have to procure and make do with the best they can under it.


It is not that the economy is growing worse, its that Modi govt is doing plain talk and not indulging in obfuscation like the previous government did - i.e. - promise everything to everyone and never deliver anything. They are pragmatic and are promising only what they can deliver - and with specific timelines. The last govt over a decade increasingly emptied the treasury with the highest subsidy doleouts in the world.

Thirdly, the previous government over promised and rarely delivered. They kept sanctioning projects and never getting them completed. Delay in negotiations was another tactic they used so as to not buy. A glaring example that has recently emerged- the last govt passed the MSC(Mountain Strike Corps) in its totality but did not allocate a single rupee towards it. So the Army started forming and arming the MSC with its war reserves which were getting depleted close to the point of panic! There are countless examples of such incompetence and mischief of the last govt to project something while doing the opposite.


You might not know this - but there is a reason why the current DM - Manohar Parrikar was brought in. He was the second most competent of all Chief Ministers in India. And the face of BJP in Goa. He is an IIT-ian and has transformed Goa's economy over the last decade from being one of the most debt ridden ones to one of the most prosperous in India.

The fact that he was literally parachuted as the Defence Minister at massive electoral cost to BJP (being the face and political vote catcher) of BJP in Goa 5 months after the new govt took charge, should tell you the absolute $hit the Defence Ministry was when Modi Govt took charge. He is a performer and takes bold decisions.

He is steadily transforming the MoD, taking tough decisions when the last DM did absolutely nothing. Watch this space, you will find that in the coming 5 years, systemic changes will become visible to all.
Read:
The price India is paying for A.K. Antony’s comatose tenure

 

[PARIKRAMA]

RAFAEL ( ) built in France

Gabriel just woke up and typed.
i can see that..
Rafael became a french company. Last i heard it was israeli.

Perhaps Nadal was in ur mind

A cup of coffe would do the trick brother

 

[dray]

If it's for real,Dassault got what they wanted since the begining....
RAFAEL ( ) built in France without any TOT,they didn't give up the negociations,we don't joke with Dassault.
What will India do then ? Buy more SU30 ? Tejas ?

Buying more Su-30 MKI was seriously an option, in fact we are buying more of that. It's a good plane.

 

[GURU DUTT]

What is happening now? 36 Rafales coming or more? or what?

most proballi three fully french built squads rest 4-6 made in india

 

[dray]

most proballi three fully french built squads rest 4-6 made in india

2 or maximum 3 squadrons, nothing more than that.

 

[GURU DUTT]

2 or maximum 3 squadrons, nothing more than that.

well thats what DM wants but IAF wants 4 more squads of rafale and navy isalso interested in some 24-26 rafale Ms