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Rafale and JF-17 Thunder to compete in Serbia.

Let me ask you something. The J-10 on 2009 was very new. Why would they market their newest product that soon to another country considering that PLAAF was busy acquiring them?


Why can't anyone market new fighters? India signed it's MiG-29 deal even before that jet was operational in Soviet Union. That was back in crazy days of the cold war. Now there is not even a threat of immediate war for china.

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Surprise surprise, the 2 finalists on MMRCA both happen to be ........ you guess it, they are both twin engined! It probably goes to tell you that you make a purchase based on your requirement and no based on what's on offer! And that apples can only be compared to apples! Who in their right minds would compare the safety and other advantages held by dual engined Jets over single engined ones? One either has to be excruciatingly stupid or blatantly biased.
Look, despite what you think, single engined and twin engined fighters routinely compete. If you want another example, Israel Chose F-16 Sufa over the F-15I, deal. Yup, a single engined fighter won.
 
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Surprise surprise, the 2 finalists on MMRCA both happen to be ........ you guess it, they are both twin engined! It probably goes to tell you that you make a purchase based on your requirement and no based on what's on offer! And that apples can only be compared to apples! Who in their right minds would compare the safety and other advantages held by dual engined Jets over single engined ones? One either has to be excruciatingly stupid or blatantly biased.

Are you calling PAF chief as either stupid or blatantly biased ?
 
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jf17 does provide the most 'bang for buck'
but they can spend upto 100mn for each a/c[ofcourse with spares and all]
anywho
whichever way one looks at this deal
the chances of jf17 winning this competition seem unreal by a long shot


It doesn't bother me if FC1 win this contract or not, The only thing making me happy that the Asian fighter are competing with Western and European fighter. Its a good sign.

@ selection of Fighter in Serbia: these factors can also be kept in mind..
1. Political pressure
2. Serbian need (How powerful their enemies are)
3. Cost (Moderate cost)

AFAIK Albaina is nearest threat for serbia and Albaninan Air force is not powerful, so I think Serbian won't mind buying low grade fighters.... Rather than going for true 4th or 4+ gen fighters...



 
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if they acquire f-16 it will be refurbished and cost will be atleast 50 million apiece.
 
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Are you calling PAF chief as either stupid or blatantly biased ?

I was actually calling you stupid and biased :)

Jokes apart, when did PAF chief ever compare the safety, take off load advantages etc. of dual over single engine?
 
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Why can't anyone market new fighters? India signed it's MiG-29 deal even before that jet was operational in Soviet Union. That was back in crazy days of the cold war. Now there is not even a threat of immediate war for china.

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------


Look, despite what you think, single engined and twin engined fighters routinely compete. If you want another example, Israel Chose F-16 Sufa over the F-15I, deal. Yup, a single engined fighter won.

As I said, Israel chose the best platform for her requirements. Let me make the most important statement of this argument, PAF flies one of the best jets of all times, the F-16. And PAF pilots were highly impressed by the J-10's performance, so much so that they hold the J-10 leaps and bounds over the F-16's in terms of performance.

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

Generally I also wonder if the performance of the Jet is of any consequence in a BVR contest, wouldn't the radar+low RCS+better BVR Missile win regardless of the performance of the jet?
 
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As I said, Israel chose the best platform for her requirements. Let me make the most important statement of this argument, PAF flies one of the best jets of all times, the F-16. And PAF pilots were highly impressed by the J-10's performance, so much so that they hold the J-10 leaps and bounds over the F-16's in terms of performance.
Pakistan is extremely pro Chinese. "taller than mountains, deeper than oceans" and all that. Most people won't take Pakistan praising Chinese products, as objective.

Generally I also wonder if the performance of the Jet is of any consequence in a BVR contest, wouldn't the radar+low RCS+better BVR Missile win regardless of the performance of the jet?
If a fighter has a high thrust to weight ratio, it can perform evasive maneuvers better, if a bvr missile is heading towards it. Evasive maneuvers like tight turns and rapid altitude changes requires a good Thrust to weight ratio.
For example, those huge long range missiles like the phoenix missile was only effective against not-very-maneuverable bombers. Against agile fighters, it would mostly miss its target. If a performance of a jet was not a consideration, then phoenix would have been effective against fighters as well.
So, for example if a bvr missile is heading towards it, a fighter performs 1.jamming along with 2.evasive maneuvers & 3.countermeasures, and ditches the missile. But now after ditching the first missile, the fighter which doesn't have a good thrust to weight ratio, has depleted its energy and cannot perform its evasive maneuvers. If a second missile comes in now after a few seconds, the fighter now only has 2 of the 3 defensive mechanisms available now, so the chances of the fighter getting killed is higher in the second missile. I don't know about other airforces, but the Russian and Indian Airforces launch 2 missiles within a few seconds of each other as a standard practice, against a single target.
 
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I was actually calling you stupid and biased :)

Jokes apart, when did PAF chief ever compare the safety, take off load advantages etc. of dual over single engine?

:(

Anyway, on topic, if twin engine planes provide so much more safety and advantages, then opting for a single engine doctrine per your post becomes as stupid and biased as comparing the 2..
 
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Pakistan is extremely pro Chinese. "taller than mountains, deeper than oceans" and all that. Most people won't take Pakistan praising Chinese products, as objective.


If a fighter has a high thrust to weight ratio, it can perform evasive maneuvers better, if a bvr missile is heading towards it. Evasive maneuvers like tight turns and rapid altitude changes requires a good Thrust to weight ratio.
For example, those huge long range missiles like the phoenix missile was only effective against not-very-maneuverable bombers. Against agile fighters, it would mostly miss its target. If a performance of a jet was not a consideration, then phoenix would have been effective against fighters as well.
So, for example if a bvr missile is heading towards it, a fighter performs 1.jamming along with 2.evasive maneuvers & 3.countermeasures, and ditches the missile. But now after ditching the first missile, the fighter which doesn't have a good thrust to weight ratio, has depleted its energy and cannot perform its evasive maneuvers. If a second missile comes in now after a few seconds, the fighter now only has 2 of the 3 defensive mechanisms available now, so the chances of the fighter getting killed is higher in the second missile. I don't know about other airforces, but the Russian and Indian Airforces launch 2 missiles within a few seconds of each other as a standard practice, against a single target.


Nice Information...
 
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Glad you found it useful. : )

Regarding twin engined fighter safely, and the importance of Thrust to weight ratio. Here is an apt example:

Top government sources said that Air Headquarters has urgently requested the Prime Minister to raise the issue of engine serviceability with his Russian counterpart after few incidents of engine failures have occurred in the long range twin-engine fighter. The Su-30 MKI is powered AL-31 FP engine, whose variant also powers the Chinese Su-30 MKK fighter.

While the Indian Air Force is tight-lipped about the issue and would like to play it down, the top brass has conveyed to government that "shaft bearing failures" have occurred in some engines. "In peacetime, the fighter can land on the other engine but this can be a life and death situation in adverse conditions", said a senior official.

PM to*raise Su-30 MKI engine failure with Russia - Hindustan Times

As you notice, some engines have failed, but there are no crashes of Su-30MKI due to engines. It's only due to 2 engines that SU-30MKI has so far had no crashes due to engine causes. The other engine saved the aircraft making it to land safely. The 3 crashes reported to far are due to - Crash1:pilot error, 2:Fuel leak, 3: FBW failure.

The presence of a single engine can be very disastrous in war-time, because the fighter cannot perform evasive maneuvers with only one engine/with a low thrust to weight ratio.
 
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wow. My hunch was right. J-10 did indeed compete. Why was J-10 not shortlisted like the others? Serbia prefers JF-17 over J-10?
 
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have gone through the complete thread and was quite surprised to see such an excited response. the thread posted yesterday is already on its 8th page.

Frineds congratulations, JF-17 have made another mark by competing in the first international Fighter Craft Tender. we are proud to se this day.

However, please note that in my humble opinion, the chances of JFT coming out as tender winner are bleak. reason being:

1. The Budget the Serbian have allocated for the dear. the need 12-16 jets only and have 1.3 Billion US$. they can almost get anything competing in the tender. here, is is not a case that Serbian can buy more JFT in same budget, they don't want to buy more. its about there requirement and number of fighter jet the can maintain and keep operational. so in this Budget and in such small numbers, all options are open
2. The pro-Westren stance of Serbian government will make them go for westren equipment.
3. The F-16 with quick delivery and the US tag are are the strongest contendar.

nevertheless, its only the beginning and we are hopeful for future! this bird is going to bring lot of pride to the nation, INSHALLAH!

thanks and best regards!
 
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