What's new

Protestors warn of anarchy if blasphemy law changed

Status
Not open for further replies.
If i was an enemy of Pakistan, i would have been really happy to see this law in place. it will damage pakistan in the long run, will alienate its milions of religious minorities, and eventually it will create a negative energy in the whole country, people will chase each other everyday for blasphamy issues without focusing on building and rebuilding issues. Another setback on top of many others.

assalam alaikum

Well this law is in place in 80' or 90' coz the punishment for this law (death ) was made in 90's unlike some of our brothers blame zia for it. and when nawaz tried to change this law our leberal former prime minister baynazeer stopped him. The west is against pakistan since its existence and when we lost more men in wot they still blame us.

Dont worry the millions of non muslims r only less then 3 percent of the nation.

Yes we need such kind of laws and yes we need to have measures also to prevent some one accusing the other falsely and the accuser should be punished ruthlessly if he is wrong or made it up.

TARIQ
 
.
Do you know something, except the 11th August speech, there's NOTHING secular goons have to talk about, even these statements have NO authenticity.

if Quaid-e-Azam echoed this principle of the Quran on August 11 1947 by saying: “You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed – that has nothing to do with the business of the State,” then he was only affirming what the Quran has declared. It does not mean that he was advocating Western-style secularism, as its proponents would have us believe. Quaid-e-Azam knew very well what secularism meant. He does not need secularists to put words in his mouth.

Here are some of Quaid'e statements with authentic references from the Quaid e Azam University library.


Quaid-e-Azam said in his presidential address in 1940:

“It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders… The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, literatures. They belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects of life and our life are different.”

In his speech at the Frontier Muslim League Conference on
November 21, 1945, he said:

“We have to fight a double edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists. The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions and Islamic laws.”

In a message to NWFP Muslim Students Federation in April 1943, he said:

“You have asked me to give a message. What message can I give you? We have got the great message in the Quran for our guidance and enlightenment.”

In an Eid message to the nation in 1945, he said:

“Every Muslim knows that the injunctions of the Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. Everyone except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal and penal code; it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all, to those of each individual; from morality to crime; from punishment here to that in the life to come, and our Prophet (S) has enjoined on us that every Muslim should possess a copy of the Holy Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines and rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society in every department of life, collectively and individually.”


Tell me, didn't Quaid say this? ^^^

And yeah, tell me, do you even consider Allama Iqbal to be the one who gave the vision of a new country to the Muslims? do you consider him Pakistan's national poet?

If yes, then my dear brother, start studying him, he was a PAN ISLAMIST, struggling for Khilafat in his poetry..

If he knew there's gonna be idiots demanding secular state after him, he would never have given the idea of a separate state.

This shayr of Allama is enough to answer you..

"Judaah ho Deen se siyasat..
Toh reh jati hai changezi
"


And in last, if you wanna discuss this issue, we can make another thread and lets decide what was the idea of Pakistan, If I prove Quaid wanted a country based on the Islamic law described in Qur'an and Sunnah, you will say Sorry to Quaid that you called him a secularist :P

Ok?

And yeah, as someone above said, even if Quaid was secular(Nauzbillah), lets presume for the sake of argument, Decide now, are you a follower of Hazrat Muhammed Bin Abdullah [S.A.W] or Muhammad Ali Jinnah [R.H] ?

:)

There is a secular approach to governing a country..and then there is an approach to life.
Lets look at the definition of secular
its pretty simple..

"separate from religion"..

Was the Quaid secular?...he defended a non-muslim in court.. is that secular?..
Was his vision of a nation for Muslims secular?.. no..
But.. the last ten or eleven words of your first bold part shows that he wanted your religion to have nothing to do with the way the state treats you.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the second bolded part.. since it deals with a general reaffirmation of the two nation theory.

The third part is tricky..
He states that Muslims can rule according to Islamic law..
yes Muslims may.. we have a Shariat court(albeit false and misguided)..that deals with Muslims matters..
What about a Christian??.. or a Jew(if we have any left)..or a Parsi?
How is that person to be dealt with?
If he/she wishes to be judged by her faith... lets allow it... but if he/she wishes to be judged by common civil rights..those that are the norm of any society. is that not secular?

The idea of Pakistan is not secular..
But it isnt completely theocratic as well..
In fact.. it was very close to the first Islamic state..
An unbiased judge..
Using religious reasoning where seen appropriate..and
Qiyas,Urf and Ijma..secularly .. when needed.
 
.
Pardon my ignorance, but why is hanging the proper way to punish Asia Babi? I would think that stoning is more appropriate. Stoning lasts a lot longer, especially if the throwing line is moved back a bit, and if the stones are limited to 1 kilo.

Asia Babi should be stoned and Geo TV should televise it for the entire nation of Pakistan to contemplate and meditate about each faithful person's own sins. Perhaps, some of the best Pakistani bowlers could be brought in to give the procedure more professionalism (and certainty). The rest of the world could look on with wonder at Pakistan's good fortune to have such faithful adherence to its glorious 7th century religion. Every non-believer would, undoubtedly, be drawn to the beauty of Islam when practiced as it is intended to be....
 
. .
best of luck buddy.:tup:

assalam alaikum

Gr8 u understood the point coz if this law is not there asia bibi and many otherrs would not have got a chance to appear in a court.
So this law prevent the fitna and some ppl want fitna in our beloved country. Insha Allah they will be the loosers.

TARIQ
 
.
Pardon my ignorance, but why is hanging the proper way to punish Asia Babi? I would think that stoning is more appropriate. Stoning lasts a lot longer, especially if the throwing line is moved back a bit, and if the stones are limited to 1 kilo.

Asia Babi should be stoned and Geo TV should televise it for the entire nation of Pakistan to contemplate and meditate about each faithful person's own sins. Perhaps, some of the best Pakistani bowlers could be brought in to give the procedure more professionalism (and certainty). The rest of the world could look on with wonder at Pakistan's good fortune to have such faithful adherence to its glorious 7th century religion. Every non-believer would, undoubtedly, be drawn to the beauty of Islam when practiced as it is intended to be....

Yes brother you're right. Asia should be stoned and not hanged and that too in front of everyone.

It will be a lesson for anyone who tries to desecrate Islam in future.
 
.
Knock knock go read Quran and Hadith than comment.

Yes I have read some parts of the Quran, as far as I know Prophet Muhammad never advocated violence to those who insult Islam. Its people like you that make Islam look bad because in reality it's an alright religion.

Are you the follower of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or Quaid-e-Azam(RA), decide first......................

Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah :pakistan:.
 
Last edited:
.
There is a secular approach to governing a country..and then there is an approach to life.
Lets look at the definition of secular
its pretty simple..

"separate from religion"..

Was the Quaid secular?...he defended a non-muslim in court.. is that secular?..
Was his vision of a nation for Muslims secular?.. no..
But.. the last ten or eleven words of your first bold part shows that he wanted your religion to have nothing to do with the way the state treats you.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the second bolded part.. since it deals with a general reaffirmation of the two nation theory.

The third part is tricky..
He states that Muslims can rule according to Islamic law..
yes Muslims may.. we have a Shariat court(albeit false and misguided)..that deals with Muslims matters..
What about a Christian??.. or a Jew(if we have any left)..or a Parsi?
How is that person to be dealt with?
If he/she wishes to be judged by her faith... lets allow it... but if he/she wishes to be judged by common civil rights..those that are the norm of any society. is that not secular?

The idea of Pakistan is not secular..
But it isnt completely theocratic as well..
In fact.. it was very close to the first Islamic state..
An unbiased judge..
Using religious reasoning where seen appropriate..and
Qiyas,Urf and Ijma..secularly .. when needed.

Sir, 90 % agreed with you :)

Quaid never wanted a theocratic state But he wanted a state with pure Islamic laws :) And I guess you know it better than me that Islam protects minorities more than any other religion :)

If some jew or christian wants to be ruled by his own law IN THE COURT, then he have the choice in the Islamic State, You must know that the major sins in any major religion in the world have same punishments :)

Murder, Adultery, Rape etc.

And now coming to the point of Mullaism, Sir, Mullahs are indeed a curse for Pakistan, I follow Allama Iqbal as my religious teacher :)

After studying Iqbal's vision, his letters to Quaid, Peer Jamat Ali Shah's support to Quaid and Quaid's own words about developing a Islamic state which will have a Islamic economic system, I have come to the conclusion that Quaid wanted a Country from where Muslims will rise again :)
:pakistan:
 
.
I totally support the blasphemy laws of Pakistan, they are fair and accurate....unfortunately misused by others who have other outstanding issues with it and as such are abused...........its a bit like hate crime in the UK, where if you have an argument with anyone, play the race card and get the person arrested...........

Like any law, it is a preventative measure and as such, the contents therein are there to stop abuse of our faith.......if ANYONE has any questions with regards to teh legitimacy of Islam or our Prophet then that is an intellectual and academical issue resolved through dialogue, but drawing cartoons of a bomb with our beloved prophet and like offences is nothing more then an insult towards Muslim and should not be acceptable either..............
 
.
Do you know something, except the 11th August speech, there's NOTHING secular goons have to talk about, even these statements have NO authenticity.

if Quaid-e-Azam echoed this principle of the Quran on August 11 1947 by saying: “You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed – that has nothing to do with the business of the State,” then he was only affirming what the Quran has declared. It does not mean that he was advocating Western-style secularism, as its proponents would have us believe. Quaid-e-Azam knew very well what secularism meant. He does not need secularists to put words in his mouth.

Here are some of Quaid'e statements with authentic references from the Quaid e Azam University library.


Quaid-e-Azam said in his presidential address in 1940:

“It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders… The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, literatures. They belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects of life and our life are different.”

In his speech at the Frontier Muslim League Conference on
November 21, 1945, he said:

“We have to fight a double edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists. The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions and Islamic laws.”

In a message to NWFP Muslim Students Federation in April 1943, he said:

“You have asked me to give a message. What message can I give you? We have got the great message in the Quran for our guidance and enlightenment.”

In an Eid message to the nation in 1945, he said:

“Every Muslim knows that the injunctions of the Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. Everyone except those who are ignorant, knows that the Quran is the general code of the Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial, criminal and penal code; it regulates everything from the ceremonies of religion to those of daily life; from the salvation of the soul to the health of the body; from the rights of all, to those of each individual; from morality to crime; from punishment here to that in the life to come, and our Prophet (S) has enjoined on us that every Muslim should possess a copy of the Holy Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines and rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society in every department of life, collectively and individually.”


Tell me, didn't Quaid say this? ^^^

And yeah, tell me, do you even consider Allama Iqbal to be the one who gave the vision of a new country to the Muslims? do you consider him Pakistan's national poet?

If yes, then my dear brother, start studying him, he was a PAN ISLAMIST, struggling for Khilafat in his poetry..

If he knew there's gonna be idiots demanding secular state after him, he would never have given the idea of a separate state.

This shayr of Allama is enough to answer you..

"Judaah ho Deen se siyasat..
Toh reh jati hai changezi
"


And in last, if you wanna discuss this issue, we can make another thread and lets decide what was the idea of Pakistan, If I prove Quaid wanted a country based on the Islamic law described in Qur'an and Sunnah, you will say Sorry to Quaid that you called him a secularist :P

Ok?

And yeah, as someone above said, even if Quaid was secular(Nauzbillah), lets presume for the sake of argument, Decide now, are you a follower of Hazrat Muhammed Bin Abdullah [S.A.W] or Muhammad Ali Jinnah [R.H] ?

:)

Well prepare to eat your own words, I am cross posting this article from a historian who has more knowledge than positing partial quotes that have been distorted by many over the years. Some of your quotes do not even exist or have been mangled to give the impression you want, well here we go anyway.

Was Jinnah secular?

Many people (though not all) on all sides of the ideology divide in Pakistan take umbrage with the description of Mahomed Ali Jinnah – the anglicized founder of Pakistan- as a secular leader or a secularist. Islamists in Pakistan say that he wanted an Islamic state. Islamic modernists say he wanted a modern Islamic democratic state (whatever that means), some people from the left say he was a communalist who was not secular because he championed Muslim separatism (albeit only in the last 11 years of his life). All of these groups agree that if Jinnah had been secular, it would not have been necessary to make a separate state. All of them – unconvincingly and inaccurately- claim that those who lay claim to a secular Jinnah are basing it on a solitary speech of Jinnah made on 11 August 1947. A slightly different claim is made by the Wali Khan group- which is ideologically consistent if historically errant- which claims that Jinnah wanted a secular state and that his push for Pakistan was the result of British manipulation and divide and rule which made him utilize Islamist rhetoric for the creation of Pakistan. While respecting all these points of view, I disagree with all of them and through this article I will explain why.

I have argued repeatedly and I stick by the position that Jinnah wanted a state that can only be described in modern parlance as a secular democratic state. My claim is not based on 11 August 1947 alone and in fact I will go as far as to say that Jinnah’s vision of the state would have been secular even if he had not made that extraordinary pronouncement where he merely put it in black and white.

My claim is based on all of the following:

Jinnah’s record as a legislator in the central Indian legislature spanning over four decades.

Jinnah’s role in the Indian Independence movement and in trying to forge a united Indian nationality which earned him the title of “Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity”.

Jinnah’s record after he took over the Muslim League as its president.
Jinnah’s clear pronouncements as the Governor General and the first president of the constituent assembly.

The symbolism deployed by Jinnah in his choice of his cabinet.
Record as a legislator and a leader of the Indian Independence Movement:

Jinnah started his political career as a liberal nationalist and a moderate in Indian National Congress in 1906. His opposition to the Muslim delegation’s demands in 1906 placed before Lord Minto is well known and documented. He opposed initially the separate electorate in principle as being divisive only to reconcile later with it as a necessary and temporary evil which would be dispensed with in due course. For a detailed discussion on Jinnah’s politics I encourage everyone to read “Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity” by Ian Bryant Wells, probably the best book written on Jinnah’s early politics – which should serve as a prequel to Dr. Ayesha Jalal’s brilliant “Sole Spokesman. Together these two form the essential “Jinnah reader”.

What is not well known is that after the acceptance of the separate electorate principle by the British government, Jinnah tried to move an amendment allowing non-Muslim candidates on Muslim seats arguing forcefully that the Muslim electorate should not be deprived of quality candidates just because of their faith. In other words Jinnah argued – without contradiction – that non-Muslims could represent Muslims and Muslim interests as well as any Muslim. Much later in his life he proved exactly that by appointing a Scheduled Case Hindu on a Muslim League seat.

As a legislator, Jinnah always put progress above faith. In 1912, Jinnah alienated many of his Muslim supporters by giving his wholehearted support to the Special Marriage Amendment Bill, which sought to provide mixed religion marriages legal protection. He argued that the bill would provide equality but he was opposed by many members on the grounds that the bill contravened the Koran. Undaunted Jinnah asked the law member who had opposed the bill if he “would deny that there is a certain class of educated and enlightened people who rightly think that a gravest injustice is done to them as long as liberty of conscience is held from them”.

This was a position through out his life believe it or not. Rubbishing the idea that Muslim sensibilities would be hurt, he asked:

“Is this the first time in the history of legislation in this country that this Council has been called upon to override Musalman Law or modify it to suit the time? The Council has over ridden and modified the Musalman law in many respects.”[1]

[An aside: This is a very important issue not that personal choices are relevant. It also lends us an important insight into Jinnah and debunks another myth. Many Pakistan ideology and Islam-hawks in Pakistan claim that Jinnah objected to his daughter’s marriage to a parsi on grounds of faith. This is only partially true. If Jinnah was all bothered about faith, he would not have ensured that his daughter grew up in a British boarding school and learned in British (not Muslim culture). If Jinnah’s anglicization was deliberate, his daughter is in very real terms English and there is absolutely no indication in Jinnah’s life that he tried to have his daughter schooled in religious dogma. His objection to his daughter’s marriage was on legal grounds. The law in India did not allow interfaith marriage unless one of the spouses converted to the other faith or both renounced their faith. For a leader and politician waging the battle for Muslim community interests, and increasingly a target of Mullahs already questioning his lifestyle and his minority Shia faith, this would have been embarrassing.]

In 1919 Jinnah gave evidence before the Joint Select Committee appointed by Parliament on the Government of India Reform Bill. The following views were expressed by him in answer to questions put by members of the Committee on the Hindu-Muslim question. This is as clear a representation of Jinnah’s life long belief in secularism as any:

EXAMINED BY MAJOR ORMSBY-GORE.Q. 3806.—You appear on behalf of the Moslem League— that is, on behalf of the only widely extended Mohammedan organisation in India ?—Yes.

Q. 3807.—I was very much struck by the fact that neither in your answers to the questions nor in your opening speech this morning did you make any reference to the special interest of the Mohammedans in India: is that because you did not wish to say anything ?—No, but because I take it the Southborough Committee have accepted that, and I left it to the members of the Committee to put any questions they wanted to. I took a very prominent part in the settlement of Lucknow. I was representing the Musalmans on that occasion.

Q. 3809.—On behalf of the All-India Moslem League, you ask this Committee to reject the proposal of the Government of India?—I am authorised to say that—to ask you to reject the proposal of the Government of India with regard to Bengal [i.e., to give the Bengal Muslims more representation than was given them by the Lucknow Pact].

Q. 3810.—You said you spoke from the point of view of India. You speak really as an Indian Nationalist ?—I do.

Q. 3811.—Holding that view, do you contemplate the early disappearance of separate communal representation of the Mohammedan community ?—I think so.

Q. 3812.—That is to say, at the earliest possible moment you wish to do away in political life with any distinction between Mohammedans and Hindus ?—Yes. Nothing will please me more than when that day comes.

Q. 3813—You do not think it is true to say that the Mohammedans of India have many special political interests not merely in India but outside India, which they are always particularly anxious to press as a distinct Mohammedan community? —There are two things. In India the Mohammedans have very few things really which you can call matters of special interest for them—I mean secular things.

Q. 3814.—I am only referring to them, of course.—And therefore that is why I really hope and expect that the day is not very far distant when these separate electorates will disappear.

Q. 3815.—It is true, at the same time, that the Mohammedans in India take a special interest in the foreign policy of the Government of India ?—They do; a very.—No, because what you propose to do is to frame very keen interest and the large majority of them hold very strong sentiments and very strong views.

Q. 3816.—Is that one of the reasons why you, speaking on behalf of the Mohammedan community, are so anxious to get the Government of India more responsible to an electorate ?—No.

Q. 3817.—Do you think it is possible, consistently with remaining in the British Empire, for India to have one foreign policy and for His Majesty, as advised by his Ministers in London, to have another ?—Let me make it clear. It is not a question of foreign policy at all. What the ******* of India feel is that it is a very difficult position for them. Spiritually, the Sultan or the Khalif is their head.

Q. 3818.—Of one community ?—Of the Sunni sect, but that is the largest; it is in an overwhelming majority all over India. The Khalif is the only rightful custodian of the Holy Places according to our view, and nobody else has a right. What the ******* feel very keenly is this, that the Holy Places should not be severed from the Ottoman Empire— that they should remain with the Ottoman Empire under the Sultan.

Q. 3819.—I do not want to get away from the Reform Bill on to foreign policy.—1 say it has nothing to do with foreign policy. Your point is whether in India the Muslims will adopt a certain attitude with regard to foreign policy in matters concerning ******* all over the world.

Q. 3820.—My point is, are they seeking for some control over the Central Government in order to impress their views on foreign policy on the Government of India ?—No.


EXAMINED BY MR. BENNETT

Q. 3853.—. . . .Would it not be an advantage in the case of an occurrence of that kind [i.e., a communal riot] if the maintenance of law and order were left with the executive side of the Government ?—1 do not think so, if you ask me, but I do not want to go into unpleasant matters, as you say.

Q. 3854.—It is with no desire to bring up old troubles that I ask the question ; I would like to forget them.—If you ask me, very often these riots are based on some misunderstanding, and it is because the police have taken one side or the other, and that has enraged one side or the other. I know very well that in the Indian States you hardly ever hear of any Hindu-Mohammedan riots, and I do not mind telling the Committee, without mentioning the name, that I happened to ask one of the ruling Princes, “How do you account for this?” and he told me, “As soon as there is some trouble we have invariably traced it to the police, through the police taking one side or the other, and the only remedy we have found is that as soon as we come to know we move that police officer from that place, and there is an end of it.”

Q. 3855.—That is [a] useful piece of information, but the fact remains that these riots have been inter-racial, Hindu on the one side and Mohammedan on the other. Would it be an advantage at a time like that [that] the Minister, the representative of one community or the other, should be in charge of the maintenance of law and order ?—Certainly.

Q. 3856.—It would ?—If I thought otherwise I should be casting a reflection on myself. If I was the Minister, I would make bold to say that nothing would weigh with me except justice, and what is right.

Q. 3857.—I can understand that you would do more than justice to the other side; but even then, there is what might be called the subjective side. It is not only that there is impartiality, but there is the view which may be entertained by the public, who may harbour some feeling of suspicion?—With regard to one section or the other, you mean they would feel that an injustice was done to them, or that justice would not be done?

Q. 3858.—Yes; that is quite apart from the objective part of it.—My answer is this: That these difficulties are fast disappearing. Even recently, in the whole district of Thana, Bombay, every officer was an Indian officer from top to bottom, and I do not think there was a single Mohammedan—they were all Hindus—and I never heard any complaint. Recently that has been so. I quite agree with you that ten years ago there was that feeling what you are now suggesting to me, but it is fast disappearing.


EXAMINED BY LORD ISLINGTON

Q. 3892.—. . . .You said just now about the communal representation, I think in answer to Major Ormsby-Gore, that you hope in a very few years you would be able to extinguish communal representation, which was at present proposed to be established and is established in order that Mahommedans may have their representation with Hindus. You said you desired to see that. How soon do you think that happy state of affairs is likely to be realized?—1 can only give you certain facts: I cannot say anything more than that: I can give you this which will give you some idea: that in 1913, at the All-India Moslem League sessions at Agra, we put this matter to the lest whether separate electorates should be insisted upon or not by the Mussalmans, and we got a division, and that division is based upon Provinces; only a certain number of votes represent each Province, and the division came to 40 in favour of doing away with the separate electorate, and 80 odd—1 do not remember the exact number—were for keeping the separate electorate. That was in 1913. Since then I have had many opportunities of discussing this matter with various Mussulman leaders; and they are changing their angle of vision with regard to this matter. I cannot give you the period, but I think it cannot last very long. Perhaps the next inquiry may hear something about it.

Q. 3893.—You think at the next inquiry the Mahommedans will ask to be absorbed into the whole?—Yes, I think the next inquiry will probably hear something about it. [2]


Leader of the Muslim League and the Governor General of Pakistan:

The great paradox for Pakistan’s imagined Islamic nationhood is that had Jinnah not adopted a secular – i.e. non-theological- policy- he would have never managed to bring all Muslims together on one platform. The doctrinal differences between Muslims were far too great to make for any real unity. Nor was Islamic rhetoric or Muslim unity alone able to bring the Muslims marching behind the Muslim League. The painful and long process by which Jinnah forged an apparent unity is indicative of his masterful political skill. What Jinnah wanted has been long a subject of controversy but there is abundant evidence that Jinnah did not want a complete separation or partition.

The classic consociationalist theory Jinnah put forth was to secure adequate and effective representation for Muslims, having seen in close quarters the sidelining of the League in UP despite being the largest Muslim party there. Therefore Jinnah’s lawyerly arguments – a regurgitation of a small pamphlet called “Confederacy of India” (originally named Pakistan but changed at Jinnah’s insistence) by “a Punjabi” called Kifayet Ali- as he placed them in front of the League in his famous 23 March 1940 address cannot by any stretch of imagination be used to argue that he wanted an Islamic state. I strongly recommend K K Aziz’s long essay (including an interview with Kifayet Ali) on “Confederacy of India” which can be found in his short works published by Vanguard Books. In any event the Lahore Resolution did not refer to “Islam” or “Islamic state” even once. This is significant for a resolution that was imagining a different country. At the very least it was clear that there was no one fixed vision of Pakistan that the League agreed on.

The very call for national – instead of territorial- right of self determination indicated a national compact between communities and was not a clarion call for an Islamic utopia. His objective was a political space where Muslims were not limited by their faith which to Jinnah was a significant accident of birth. Ironically, that is precisely what Pakistan has been doing for the last 30 odd years.

Raja of Mahmudabad’s evidence is significant. The Raja started off by saying that since the Lahore resolution had been passed earlier that year, if and when Pakistan was formed, it was undoubtedly to be an Islamic State with the Sunna and Shariah as its bedrock. The Quaid’s face went red and he turned to ask Raja whether he had taken leave of his senses. Mr. Jinnah added: `Did you realize that there are over seventy sects and differences of opinion regarding the Islamic faith, and if what the Raja was suggesting was to be followed, the consequences would be a struggle of religious opinion from the very inception of the State leading to its very dissolution. Mr. Jinnah banged his hands on the table and said: We shall not be an Islamic State but a Liberal Democratic Muslim State.[3]

Jinnah’s appeal to Islam was entirely ambiguous and never concrete. In fact he always very conveniently managed to sideline the issue of Sharia, especially in 1943 when a bunch of Muslim Leaguers tried to pass off a resolution to commit Pakistan to Islam. Jinnah vetoed it and called it a censure on every Muslim Leaguer. [4]

On 21st May, 1947, Jinnah described clearly what kind of state he envisaged in Pakistan:

The basis of the central administration of Pakistan and that of the units to be set up will be decided no doubt, by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. But the Government of Pakistan can only be a popular representative and democratic form of Government. Its Parliament and Cabinet responsible to the Parliament will both be finally responsible to the electorate and the people in general without any distinction of caste, creed or sect, which will the final deciding factor with regard to the policy and programme of the Government that may be adopted from time to time… The minorities in Pakistan will be the citizens of Pakistan and enjoy all the rights, privileges and obligations of citizenship without any distinction of caste creed or sect. They will be treated justly and fairly. The Government will run the administration and control the legislative measures by its Parliament, and the collective conscience of the Parliament itself will be a guarantee that the minorities need not have any apprehension of any injustice being done to them. Over and above that there will be provisions for the protection and safeguard of the minorities which in my opinion must be embodied in the constitution itself. And this will leave no doubt as to the fundamental rights of the citizens, protection of religion and faith of every section, freedom of thought and protection of their cultural and social life. [5]

In an interview with Duncan Hooper he said:

Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent assembly, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan ‘if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?’[6]

In his address to the people of the United States of America, Jinnah said:

In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.[7]

Speaking to Parsi gathering in Karachi in February 1948, he said:

I assure you Pakistan means to stand by its oft repeated promises of according equal rights to all its nationals irrespective of their caste or creed. Pakistan which symbolizes the aspirations of a nation that found it self to be a minority in the Indian subcontinent cannot be unmindful of minorities within its own borders. It is a pity that the fairname of Karachi was sullied by the sudden outburst of communal frenzy last month and I can’t find words strong enough to condemn the action of those who are responsible. [8]

On 22nd March 1948, meeting with Hindu Legislators in an effort to stem their exodus to India, he said:

We guarantee equal rights to all citizens of Pakistan. Hindus should in spirit and action wholeheartedly co-operate with the Government and its various branches as Pakistanis. [9]

On 23rd March 1948 meeting the ‘Scheduled Caste Federation’, he said:

We stand by our declarations that members of every community will be treated as citizens of Pakistan with equal rights and privileges and obligations and that Minorities will be safeguarded and protected.[10]

Speaking to Quetta Parsis in June 1948, he said:

Although you have not struck the note of your needs and requirements as a community but it is the policy of my Government and myself that every member of every community irrespective of caste color, creed or race shall be fully protected with regard to his life, property and honor. I reiterate to you that you like all minorities will be treated as equal citizens with your rights and obligations provided you are loyal to Pakistan. [11]

Symbolism was also very important. As mentioned earlier, Jogindranath Mandal, a Scheduled Caste federation politician and lawyer from Bengal, was first appointed on League’s behalf to represent Muslims of India in the interim government. After partition he was nominated by Jinnah to chair the inaugural session of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. He was then nominated to the first cabinet as Pakistan’s first law minister. This is a very significant fact. If Pakistan was to be an Islamic state, why was a Hindu being appointed the minister of law? Jogindranath Mandal was not only a scheduled caste Hindu but he was entirely unversed in Islamic law (unlike Rana Bhagwandas). Another significant thing was Jinnah’s decision to get a Hindu to write Pakistan’s first national anthem. This was done presumably to show that Pakistan was not exclusivist state for Muslims alone.

Jinnah’s “Islamic” rhetoric and a Secular Pakistan

Jinnah’s references to Islam were – contrary to the tall claims made by those Ulema who ironically had the time opposed the creation of Pakistan- few and far between. It was usually an Eid message or a speech at convocation where Jinnah referred to Islam. Three such quotes that these Ulema bring up include Jinnah’s speech on the occasion of Eid Milad un Nabi, his letter to Pir of Manki Sharif and his alleged speech in Peshawar’s Islamia College.

Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. Islam has taught Equality, Justice and fairplay to everybody. What reason is there for anyone to fear. Democracy, equality, freedom on the highest sense of integrity and on the basis of fairplay and justice for everyone. Let us make the constitution of Pakistan. We will make it and we will show it to the world. Islam is not only a set of rituals, traditions and spiritual doctrines. Islam is also a code for every Muslim, which regulates his life and conduct in even politics and economics and the like. [12]

The latter part is quoted out of context to prove that Jinnah did not want a secular state, when a closer reading shows that this is erroneous. Take the example of Keith Ellison, the Muslim Congressman in the United States. He is a practicing religious Muslim. For him Islam is a code of conduct. He is also a member of the Congress of United States of America and a patriotic American. His life and conduct in politics and economics are all regulated by his adherence to Islam. Jinnah’s opposite number in the Congress Party, Maulana Azad, was another example of an extremely conservative Muslim whose every action was driven by and regulated by Islam. In contrast Jinnah himself had a very liberal understanding of the code of Islam – if indeed he followed it. The point is that Jinnah’s reference to code for every Muslim was on a personal level. It does not speak of a state or any other thing like that. How then can this statement be taken to mean that Pakistan would be an Islamic state or a theocracy especially when read together with other speeches and statements quoted above? It also bears remembering that whenever Jinnah spoke of “Islamic principles” he qualified the statement with “democracy”, “equality”, “fairplay”, “brotherhood of man” and “social justice”.

Another often quoted example is Jinnah’s letter to Pir of Manki Sharif. The Pir had asked Jinnah if lives of Muslims shall be subject to Shariat? What Jinnah had promised was that affairs of the Muslim community would be subject to Shariat i.e. the Muslim personal law. No where did Jinnah promise to make Shariat the civil and criminal law of Pakistan. Shariat in British India referred to Personal Law. It is this law that is still in force in India.

Section 2 of the Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act of 1937 of India reads:

2. Application of Personal Law of Muslims.- Notwithstanding any customs or usage to the contrary, in all questions (save questions relating to agricultural land) regarding intestate succession, special property of females, including personal property inherited or obtained under contract or gift or any other provision of Personal law, marriage, dissolution of marriage, including talaq, ila, zihar, lian, khula and mubaraat, maintenance, dower, guardiaship, gifts, trusts and trust properties, and wakfs (other than chartities and charitable institutions and charitable and religious endowments) the rule of decision in case where the parties are Muslims shall be the Muslim Personal Law (Shariat). [13]

This is the law in secular India today. Muslims of India are governed by Shariat in their affairs as a community. Does it affect Indian secularism in anyway? Communal Personal laws are an accepted part of English Jurisprudence. So it does not quite follow that Mr. Jinnah was referring to anything but this when he promised Pir of Manki Sharif that the affairs of Muslim community (not nation interestingly) shall be run by Shariat in Pakistan and that no Muslim would be forced to accept any unIslamic law, which implies – for those who use this double-edged sword to prove the impossible- that there was an element of choice that a Muslim may accept an unIslamic law out of his or her free will. This would obviously make it consistent with Jinnah’s life long support to mixed marriages bill.

And finally the issue of the alleged “laboratory of Islam” speech: without getting into the controversy of whether Jinnah actually did say it and assume that he did. Considering his Peshawar audience, this was almost revolutionary. After all was Islam not be “final” and “complete”? Was Jinnah talking of experimentation i.e. Ijtehad? Was he under Qadiani influence? It certainly does not mean that Jinnah wanted a conservative Islamic state.

The argument that Jinnah was secular does not mean necessarily a secularism of the French or Ataturk kind (even though Jinnah admired Ataturk greatly and described Ataturk’s Turkey as an exemplary Muslim state). Jinnah’s secularism was of the English variety schooled and crafted by British liberalism which was far more tolerant of religion.

Indeed he referred to English history in his land mark 11th August speech. If Pakistan is the citadel of Islam in South Asia, as some claim, England was the bastion of Protestantism in Europe. It is – technically- a protestant country today. Yet it is a perfect secular democracy because it does not have a state religion and every elected office in the country is open to every subject of the Queen regardless of religion, caste or creed. Now let us consider what Jinnah said:

“As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.”

It was the perfect summation of English secularism. It was also Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan. Jinnah’s Pakistan to sum it up was to be

An inclusive democracy

An impartial state without a state religion

A state which ensured rule of law and equality citizenship to all its citizens regardless of religion caste or creed.

A state where a person’s religion was to be a personal matter.

No one- even those quoting Jinnah’s so called Islamic references- can deny these four postulates which Jinnah expressed repeatedly again and again. This is the essence of a secular state. This is why Jinnah was a liberal secular democrat in my view.


NOTES:

[1] p. 21, Ian Bryant Wells, Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity, Permanent Black New Delhi

[2] 412c

[3] http://www.dawn.com/events/pml/review38.htm

[4] See Jinnah’s speech at the Delhi Session of the Muslim League of 1943 after Dr. A H Kazi tried to introduce a resolution committing Pakistan to Khilafat-e- Rashda. See Footnote on Page 96 of Ayesha Jalal’s “Sole Spokesman” published OUP.

[5] p.845, Zaidi, Z.H. (ed) (1993) Jinnah Papers: Prelude to Pakistan, Vol. I Part I. Lahore: Quaid-i-Azam Papers Project

[6] p. 61, Jinnah Speeches and Statements 1947-1948, Oxford 1997

[7] p. 125 Ibid

[8] p.102-103 Ibid

[9] p. 153 Ibid

[10] p. 154 Ibid

[11] p. 223 Ibid

[12] p. 98 Ibid

[13] Laws - The Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act - Section 2
 
.
Jinnah did want a secular state that is right, but even he was not able to control the religious fanaticism he had invoked for the creation of Pakistan. Look at Pakistan today if you ask me for proof, was this society as polarized before creation of Pakistan as well?

Well here is one lesson in history, the fanatics of India only migrated to Pakistan after the death of Jinnah. For a long period, they were dormant because of their known anti-Pakistan views and they were not very popular in the public arena. Pakistan was not polarized for a long period until Bhutto's regime came into power and when he started to loose support, he initiated a plan to gain the support of mullahs. Later Mard-e-Momin Mard-e-Haq Gen. Zia polarized the nation by ideas of an Islamic state by implementing laws that were detrimental to the nation.

After all we were the least corrupt and most progressive nation in Asia by the sixties, we had many religions living side by side and we had no polarization then. We were one, had one identity and a very high number of important posts were occupied from members of minorities or small Muslim sects.

As for Jinnah playing the religion card, he carved a whole country on the basis of religion, stating that religion is what unites a country and not shared history or culture, if that is not playing religion politics I don't know what is.

He carved a nation for Muslims of the upper north provinces of India, initially it was only meant to be an autonomous province within Federal India but when Ganhdi and Nehru could not offer the required rights to Muslims, Pakistan was made. It was made as a Muslim majority state, it was not an Islamic state, had it been one, it would have been called an Islamic state from day one.

The people of Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, Sindh and Balochistan were demanding a separate state long before Jinnah joined the Muslim league. Jinnah too rebuked Rehmat Ali when this idea was told to him. But the will was there and the one thing that could be used to bring us together was our Muslim identity. Even then some Hindus, Parsis and Christians threw their weight behind the idea of Pakistan because the idea was an attractive one and they enjoyed great years until our coward leaders destroyed our fabric.

The end result that Jinnah wanted is inconsequential, it is the means he employed that shaped Pakistan into a religiously driven society that it has become, and that is what these people on the streets want today.

Nonsense, had it been the case then from the very birth of Pakistan, this polarization would have occurred. Pakistan until the late 70's was a peaceful, calm and tolerant place where religion did not matter. You should understand the Pakistan was the nation that was on such an excellent path that nations like South Korea visited us to study our economic model.

Other Muslim nations saw Pakistan as the place where religious minorities were equally as responsible in driving the state forward.

In the end, some educated blokes like you might decipher that Jinnah wanted a different Pakistan; but to those guys on the streets and some here on this forum, Pakistan is exactly as Jinnah wanted, a country existing for religion, and their voice seems louder than yours at the moment
.

These people you are referring to have unfortunately been through an intensive brainwashing campaign started by the late great Mard-e-Momin Mard-e-Haq Gen Zia who made slogans like 'Pakistan ka matlab Kya, La-Illaha-IllAllah' popular and made the populace think that Pakistan was supposed to be an Islamic state. He introduced public lashing, hudood ordinances and many other laws that has left the nation on the verge of social collapse because of the eventual collapse.

Did you know that the majority of Pak Muslims were just Shrine visiting privately religious people who did not provoke religion at every step. But the bastardization of our nation led by some third rate leaders has overtime altered the course of our nation.

Though its not all lost, people question our Islamization, they realize that the nation which was on such a good path has been scarred by this Islamization and soon the right authorities too will wake up to this fact and change this nation for the better.
 
.
You r right, in a democratic country Law of the people By the people is supreme, thats way democracy has nothing to do with Islamic law.

Where God's law is Supreme.

And once that comes into state affairs we see what the current state of Pakistan has become. Democracy holds no value to these protesters.
 
.
T-Faz, I can see your point and by trying to quote one after the other doesn't make you right and Jinnah's views on this matter are not clearly known at all..........however....

Nations are not built by one man alone..........Mohammed Ali Jinnah was a good man, very intelligent, however, did he advocate to the masses of Muslim protesting and demanding a separate homeland that this homeland is being demanded because he, Mohammed Ali Jinnah wanted a Liberal Muslim state or something else..........no.......Muslims demanded a separate homeland and the very foundations of British rule of separation was the Musim, non-Muslim divide.......this mere fact in itself is enough to claim Pakistan was created as a land for Muslim who wanted a separate homeland from mainly dominant Hindus who treatments of Muslims after the 1936 elections in some parts of then India quite inhumanely, hence the call for Pakistan...........

Now, if Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, then surely the Qur'an should be a guidance for that rule of law with some modifications to some advances......as has been a source of guidance by many rulers in the past..........

Just my thought
 
.
And once that comes into state affairs we see what the current state of Pakistan has become. Democracy holds no value to these protesters.

and you blame all this mishaps which is done by an american and nato war on pakistan ideals??, u must understand that, during formation, pakistanis supported the religion in all affairs of state, if we gonna separate from it then it means weakening the very foundation on which pakistan is based on

in many of your posts you have either directly or indirectly related the talibans to pakistan, talibans have nothing to do with pakistan in the first place...

pakistan was not a country with frequent bomb blasts and terrorists attacks, TTP untill americans came to afghanistan and we didnt even want to let americans eter there but musharraf was threatened that pakistan was to be bombed to stone age..
 
.
Pardon my ignorance, but why is hanging the proper way to punish Asia Babi? I would think that stoning is more appropriate. Stoning lasts a lot longer, especially if the throwing line is moved back a bit, and if the stones are limited to 1 kilo.

Asia Babi should be stoned and Geo TV should televise it for the entire nation of Pakistan to contemplate and meditate about each faithful person's own sins. Perhaps, some of the best Pakistani bowlers could be brought in to give the procedure more professionalism (and certainty). The rest of the world could look on with wonder at Pakistan's good fortune to have such faithful adherence to its glorious 7th century religion. Every non-believer would, undoubtedly, be drawn to the beauty of Islam when practiced as it is intended to be....

Thanks for the suggestion. Here are some alternative options:

- Accuse her of terrorism and being a 'threat to national security'. Then we can use secret evidence, secret witnesses and completely bypass the legal system to put her away for life, or even sentence her to death. No muss, no fuss, and anyone who tries to defend her can also be dismissed as an unpatriotic terrorist sympathizer. For good measure, we could put a gun in her hand and accuse her of trying to attack soldiers. With secret evidence, anything is possible!

- Let her go free but pass laws to criminalize her dress code. Then we can harass, humiliate and even fine her whenever she shows up in public. A lifetime of officially sanctioned harassment!

Yes brother you're right. Asia should be stoned and not hanged and that too in front of everyone.

It will be a lesson for anyone who tries to desecrate Islam in future.

Do you have anything to contribute besides this mindless trolling?

Dont worry the millions of non muslims r only less then 3 percent of the nation.

Sorry, but I do worry about that three percent. They are citizens of Pakistan, just like you or me, and are entitled to live life as equal, first-class citizens.

Just because the West has forsaken their ideals in a frenzy of hatred doesn't mean we have to follow suit and scapegoat our minority community.

If i was an enemy of Pakistan, i would have been really happy to see this law in place. it will damage pakistan in the long run, will alienate its milions of religious minorities, and eventually it will create a negative energy in the whole country, people will chase each other everyday for blasphamy issues without focusing on building and rebuilding issues. Another setback on top of many others.

This whole concept of blasphemy law is tricky. While it seems medieval at first glance, a little reflection shows that it is not so different from laws around the world. Most countries have laws against hate speech; many countries, including Australia, have laws against religious vilification. Europe has perhaps the most peculiar laws: you can say anything against Islam or Christianity but, if you say one word against Judaism or the Holocaust, the cops will come a-knocking...

Bottom line, all cultures, including the West, have limits on free speech and certain subjects are taboo. We will never be able to stop Western agitators from insulting the Prophet (pbuh) or Eesa aleh-as-salaam (Jesus), just as they can't stop Iran from mocking the Holocaust, but we can ensure that Islam is respected under our laws. We should maybe exend the law to cover respect for other religions as well.

As others have pointed out, the problem lies in abuse of the law. Perhaps it is written too broadly and needs to be restricted to serious offenses. Certainly the penalty for false accusation needs to be the same as for the offense itself.
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom