Proposal: Ceramic coatings/replacement for JF-17 engine blades

[The SC]

So much of our technological prowess is hidden, people ask questions such as 'What would Pakistan bring to the NSG?' Or, 'A country that can not make its own assault rife wants to develop a fighter jet'. They don't realize that because of limited resources, we dedicate our efforts to top priority national security projects. But where we do invest our resources, Alhamdulillah we excel.

These types of advanced materials should be pursued simply to advance our industrial base, with applications in civilian technology. That would give us a standing in the world, and later, it can also be put to military use as well.

Specialising in some high tech niches will do a lot of good for Pakistan, achievements will motivate other achievements to the benefit of Pakistani actual and future scientists as well..

 

[araz]

We need General Electric, Pratt & Whitney or Rolce Royce to set up an engine manufacturing facility in Pakistan, that is the easiest and quickest way of developing the know-how of building and altering engines.

Good luck trying that!!!
A

OK. PC1 are archived with the federal archives of 04-05 in Isl. Some parts should be accessible after ten years.
Initial estimated cost was 25 mil USD. It was thought out as a collaboration with NDC-Nescom. One of the objectives were to develop dual purpose (civil and mil) turbines of various categories. Another aim was to develop fab-tech backbone - as a collaborative work under Nescom. It was dropped, one objection was the complexity of the project, lack of short term benefits, Nescom overstretched resources & issues with overlap.

@messiach.
Thank you very much for the response and sorry if I sounded abrupt.One of the problems of getting old is you sometimes lose patience. I will respond in detail once I have digested the information provided.
A

 

[Rain]

Innocent question: Is our MRO infrastructure for RD-93 capable enough that we could independently replace engine blades with ceramic ones? Obviously this presumes availability of such ceramics on the first place.

Thus could have multiple advantages in weight reduction, which leads to better maneuverability, higher top speed, and maybe even reduction of radar and heat signature. Thoughts?

such a chamge will need redesigning and rebuilding the associated systems. for simplicity consider the case when ureplace metal with ceramic u need to recalculate cooling,,torques produced and etc.

 

[CriticalThought]

such a chamge will need redesigning and rebuilding the associated systems. for simplicity consider the case when ureplace metal with ceramic u need to recalculate cooling,,torques produced and etc.

You are right. It's not simple. But if we invest in it there would be much benefits. First, it would pay off in terms of foreign exchange going out of the country. In the long term it will certainly be lower cost. It would give us much better security against arms embargos. It will also have follow on effects for other projects as well.

EDIT: One more thing. The CMC is lighter and tolerates higher temperatures, so it may turn out that the rest of the engine is simply over-engineered. That would be a good thing.

 

[messiach]

Yes, solid propellent rocket motor & turbofan facilities exist. Reverse engineer, NO.

what about such facilities for cruise missile engines?, ok they may only have a otu but does Pakistan have the ability to reverse engineer the al-222?

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes, solid propellent rocket motor & turbofan facilities exist. Reverse engineer, NO.

so pakistan makes its own cruise missile engines, nice.
have they looked/relooked at technologies that can improve the performance of its engines, such as a composite main fan, or even low pressure compressors?

 

[messiach]

Yes. Second question, i am not with Nescom. Technological evolution continues. Priority should be for dual purpose turbine developmnt facility, which we are lacking. I have noted, when it comes to energy and high output turbine projects in pakistan, criminal negligence exist in federal bureaucracy (very likely they are on payrolls, most retire and like to settle in canada). They are worse offenders 100 X NS and madari.

so pakistan makes its own cruise missile engines, nice.
have they looked/relooked at technologies that can improve the performance of its engines, such as a composite main fan, or even low pressure compressors?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What Paf needs the most is STABILITY in its JF17 procurement and manufacturing program. The JF17 has moved way ahead of minimum threshold level of performance for this aircraft with its current engine.

A stability in the weapons design is a ' force multiplier ' in itself---because---as you operate it---the level of efficiency increases with a multiplier effect in operation and as well as maintenance---.

You also have to consider the costs involved with the ceramics---but then are the russians ready for accepting that change---.

Now if the ceramic coatings was so cost effective---then why have the russians---who are farther ahead in technology have not used it in their manufacturing process for this engine.

Now---as an operator---the Paf must have suggested a few modificatins to the russian engine as they did on the F7's to the chinese---.

But just to build blades with ceramic coatings does not make a lots of tactical sense at this time---the money available would be better used to buy a more potent EW package---.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Yes. Second question, i am not with Nescom now but hearsay is some derivative engines are....

cool,
sorry if its a personal question but you know a lot about pakistan's capabilities. are you pakistani ? or are you an austrian pakistani who now lives in the uk? im just a bit confused.

 

[messiach]

Proud Pakistani.

cool,
sorry if its a personal question but you know a lot about pakistan's capabilities. are you pakistani ? or are you an austrian pakistani who now lives in the uk? im just a bit confused.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Proud Pakistani.

good stuff, but do you mind changing your flags its kinda confusing at first. the first flag you cant change but the second one you can. so your like waz, Kaptaan, Zaki, british pakistani.

@Horus and @WebMaster can change your first flag for you.

nice meeting you

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

What Paf needs the most is STABILITY in its JF17 procurement and manufacturing program. The JF17 has moved way ahead of minimum threshold level of performance for this aircraft with its current engine.

A stability in the weapons design is a ' force multiplier ' in itself---because---as you operate it---the level of efficiency increases with a multiplier effect in operation and as well as maintenance---.

You also have to consider the costs involved with the ceramics---but then are the russians ready for accepting that change---.

Now if the ceramic coatings was so cost effective---then why have the russians---who are farther ahead in technology have not used it in their manufacturing process for this engine.

Now---as an operator---the Paf must have suggested a few modificatins to the russian engine as they did on the F7's to the chinese---.

But just to build blades with ceramic coatings does not make a lots of tactical sense at this time---the money available would be better used to buy a more potent EW package---.

There is no such thing as 'stability' in any modern fighter, they all see constant upgrades. The F-16 saw the very engine changed across some blocks. With the Thunder we are expecting a newer engine for Block III. Please give an example of a fighter where they observed 'strategic stability'.

The coatings will be cost effective in the long term when they reduce wear and tear, provide better handling of high temperatures and thus reduce maintenance costs.

The RD-93 doesn't represent the pinnacle of Russian technology. It is based on an older design MK-33. But we can make it better much cheaper due to lower labor costs.

This type of research also ties in with ACM Sohail Aman's vision for indigenous production of Gen 5+ technologies.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is no such thing as 'stability' in any modern fighter, they all see constant upgrades. The F-16 saw the very engine changed across some blocks. With the Thunder we are expecting a newer engine for Block III. Please give an example of a fighter where they observed 'strategic stability'.

The coatings will be cost effective in the long term when they reduce wear and tear, provide better handling of high temperatures and thus reduce maintenance costs.

The RD-93 doesn't represent the pinnacle of Russian technology. It is based on an older design MK-33. But we can make it better much cheaper due to lower labor costs.

This type of research also ties in with ACM Sohail Aman's vision for indigenous production of Gen 5+ technologies.

Hi,


Before jumping up and down---if you had read up on the F16---you would have learnt about different BLK's and their longevity---.

Each and every BLK of the F16's had stability of its design---and contd for years---same thing with the JF17---its systems would stay stable for awhile till the next upgrades become available---.

The only reason people are seeing so many changes in the JF17---because the EW suite that the Paf was dependant upon---fell thru the holes---and the primary engine was not ready for the aircraft either---.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

You are back again thinking with your ' feet '---. If you had some military background or some ' basic information ' you would understand the term of ' design stability ' a little better---.

Before jumping up and down---if you had rea dup on the F16---you would have learnt about different BLK's and their longevity---.

Each and every BLK of the F16's had stability of their desing parameters---and contd for years---same thing with the JF17---its systems would stay stable for awhile till the next upgrades become available---.

The only reason people are seeing so many changes in the JF17---because the EW suite that the Paf was dependant upon---fell thru the holes---and the primary engine was not ready for the aircraft either---.

So the coatings can be applied for the next block. What's the issue?

 

[araz]

So the coatings can be applied for the next block. What's the issue?

The engine does not come to you in parts it is a manufactured product. You can suggest changes but the Final say lies with the Russians over what tthey will agree with or noyt. Even if they agree with the prospect they will charge you for R&D and at the end retain the facilitiesfor their own benefit so the prospect of you gaining form it are minimal. Secondly if they decided to milk you for 2-300 million dollars as R&D how will you pay?. You have been negotiating with the Red Bear for local over haul and so far this has not happened, so how do you propose to apply this coating even if you had one. WHAT WOULD IT DO TO THE MANUFACTUREERS WARRANTY?As soon as they hear you have been tinkering with the turbine blades they will withdraw all warranties. So your ideas are immature in their thought process in many ways which I have pointed out.
The only way in which you can progress is to work on dual use turbines for commercialuse and from there move into smaller Turbofans and then larger ones.
A