Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[CivilianSupremacy]

I think Pakistan is going to take the J-35 and then rename it "Project Azm". lol

Or another route (and more respectable) would be innovate over JF-17 next version. Add stealthy features, add RAM (radar absorbing material), more advance EW etc, and then it won't matter if they call JF-17 block 4 as Project AZM. Technically it won't be a pure 5th gen fighter but still good enough for Pakistan.

 

[FuturePAF]

The best thing Pakistan go for it’s 5th Gen aspirations is get its economy in order so it can afford them.

 

[hyperman]

Or another route (and more respectable) would be innovate over JF-17 next version. Add stealthy features, add RAM (radar absorbing material), more advance EW etc, and then it won't matter if they call JF-17 block 4 as Project AZM.

The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.

Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.

 

[FuturePAF]

The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.

Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.

With a better engine on the horizon, the airframe could be modified to bring the wheels outside of the fuselage and further outward, similar to the Gripen E, allowing for more weapons (such as BVR missiles) to be carried under the fuselage in recessed stations. The design could also be slightly modified to harness the added thrust to allow the plane to achieve supercruise, and the addition of CFT could allow the plane to stay supersonic longer, allow the fighter to impart additional range to its BVR missiles from a higher altitude and at a faster speed, similar to how the F-15 can “boost” the Aim-120D to its limits. Gripen is a comparable aircraft that really shows the limits of what a 4th Gen platform in the same weight class can do. We shouldn’t discount how much further the JF-17 can be modified, especially considering our limited budget and the need to keep pace for our own needs in an affordable manner as well as offer the best 4th Gen platform in the light class to as many customers as possible.

Options should open up when the WS-19 is fully ready, with a max thrust around 120-125 kn, and better RAM technology will be affordable enough and durable enough (ease of maintenance) to put on the JF-17. Better datalinks and improvements in sensor fusion (between new IRST pods, the on board AESA and EW/ESM suites) can also allow the fleet to employ better tactics against an evolving adversary.

As the backbone of the PAF for decades to come, the JF-17 should be pushed to the limits of its design as a 4th generation light fighter, but with our budget in mind.

If we get our economy in order, all the lessons learned in improving the JF-17 can be applied to the next Gen aircraft and improved upon.

P.S. as the PAF looks to one day not just procuring but domestically producing a next gen fighter, it could begin by producing the JF-17 with the latest technologies, to lower its weight as much as possible, and made the aircraft life span as long as possible, similar to how the J-35 is being produced. So by the time a 5th Gen fighter can be produced domestically, the Kamra factory will have had years of experience.

 

[jupiter2007]

The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.

Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.

J-35 has be a mature platform before PAF will consider it. I think PAF is not quit ready for 5th generation fighter. Our first priority should be to improving JF-17 so it can become True 4th generation fighter. We have to replace older mirage and F7s and they can be replaced with JF-17 and J-10.

 

[Indos]

J-35 has be a mature platform before PAF will consider it. I think PAF is not quit ready for 5th generation fighter. Our first priority should be to improving JF-17 so it can become True 4th generation fighter. We have to replace older mirage and F7s and they can be replaced with JF-17 and J-10.

Fix the economy first, after Indians has already had hundreds of their four generations of Tejas Mark 1, Tejas Mark 2, and TBF, then Pakistan can start thinking about inducting 5 generation fighters.

Let them put their resources to develop and manufacture those 4 gen fighters until the numbers are in hundreds while during that period Pakistan should focus on fixing the economy

Their focus on Tejas Mark1, Tejas Mark2, and TBF is a bless for Pakistan, better you use this period to build the economy as Pakistan have already had quite many four gen fighters.

 

[Horse_Rider]

Many of us have said in the past that Pakistan does not have the technical or industrial base to create a 5th gen foghter on its own anf that likely this wod trickle down to joining TFX or J-35. Looks like this is right. The thing Pakistan should focus on acutely is that if they plan on joining the TFX program, they need to modify the design to take an ITAR safe poweplant. Pakistan needs to get the bluprint and focus on its end to fit the WS-10 in the TFX. This will likely need to be done without chinese technical assistance (im sure the turks dont want china's fingers in its projects). Otherwise this will be a no go from the beginning

You are saying what I've been trying to say on here but with a proposal. I'm not the PAF so what I say has no role beyond this forum for discussion. Under my proposal:

1) The PAF should finish up the JFT block III (50?) orders and any export orders that come. Stop manufacturing of the JFT for the PAF beyond block III and focus on enhancement / sustainment / rebuilds of the JFT.

2) The PAF should acquire Chinese J-10C production line for license production (initially limited ToT and later majority build in Pakistan similar to the JFT). It should build the J-10C in numbers 100-150 and form a true backbone (even rename if to JFT block 4 delta wing like the F-16 V for consistency to it's internal fighter program).

3) Work with Turkey and China on capabilities around TFX and J-31 respectively and how to convert the J-10C airframe into a stealthy one and incorporate whichever 5th gen tech solution make sense through integration in house using WS engines from China with TVC.

4) Roll the stealthy 5th gen work under project AZM and create a stealthy design by 2030. So the J-10C airframe / delta wing will become the standardized PAF platform forming it's top tier fighter as well as creating a stealthy one out of it also using TFX / J-31 tech.

 

[Tank131]

You are saying what I've been trying to say on here but with a proposal. I'm not the PAF so what I say has no role beyond this forum for discussion. Under my proposal:

1) The PAF should finish up the JFT block III (50?) orders and any export orders that come. Stop manufacturing of the JFT for the PAF beyond block III and focus on enhancement / sustainment / rebuilds of the JFT.

2) The PAF should acquire Chinese J-10C production line for license production (initially limited ToT and later majority build in Pakistan similar to the JFT). It should build the J-10C in numbers 100-150 and form a true backbone (even rename if to JFT block 4 delta wing like the F-16 V for consistency to it's internal fighter program).

3) Work with Turkey and China on capabilities around TFX and J-31 respectively and how to convert the J-10C airframe into a stealthy one and incorporate whichever 5th gen tech solution make sense through integration in house using WC engines from China with TVC.

4) Roll the stealthy 5th gen work under project AZM and create a stealthy design by 2030. So the J-10C airframe / delta wing will become the standardized PAF platform forming it's top tier fighter as well as creating a stealthy one out of it also using TFX / J-31 tech.

1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.

2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.

3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.

4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

The Jf-17 is at the end of its development cycle. there is not much more you can really do with it as an airframe. its a bit like putting 4th and 5th gen avionics and features on a Mig-21 airframe, yes technically possible but not really the best use of resources or an ideal outcome.

Pakistan would be better off acquiring a squadron of the Air Force version of the J-35 from China. otherwise you aren't going to keep pace with the regional developments. The indians still haven't gotten their hands on a 5th Gen fighter, and the AMCA is like much further away, in terms of acquiring quality to counter the quantity advantage for India, that would seem to be the way, especially in BVR combat.

I have to disagree a bit on this. JF-17 is a lightweight aircraft, It does not mean its at the end of its life cycle development. I am more than certain there will be block 4 and possibly block 5. You just need to keep upgrading the avionics / weapons suites and some more minor structural updates. This is actually good use of resources and saving lot of money then designing an entire new platform.

JF-17 is lightweight just like Gripen is lightwieght. or any other lightweight aircraft.. Does it mean they all are at end of their development lifecycle ? Not at all!.. Lightweight aircrafts have their limitations in terms of payload etc. but they comes with their perks as well.. Biggest of that is the low cost. You can field many more aircrafts in same cost as the others. These birds will continue to have lot of potential in future as they will offer low cost solution with effective results.

Yes for 5th gen fighter, I totally agree we need to have a medium to heavy weight fighter for a pure 5th gen fighter.

 

[jupiter2007]

1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.

2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.

3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.

4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.

We need to Continue with JF-17 block 3 production and keep working on block 4 with better avionics & sensors, engine, and more composite material to reduce overall weight.
We need at least 300 to 350 to replace older mirage and F-7s.
IMHO, we need to continue acquisition of J-10C for stop gap purpose until 5th generation fighter program is mature.

 

[Tank131]

We need to Continue with JF-17 block 3 production and keep working on block 4 with better avionics & sensors, engine, and more composite material to reduce overall weight.
We need at least 300 to 350 to replace older mirage and F-7s.
IMHO, we need to continue acquisition of J-10C for stop gap purpose until 5th generation fighter program is mature.

Agreed. J-10CE will fill the top flight role and i think it will be what PAF wanted for the F-16. The F-16 will start being phased out in 2030s when a FGFA starts coming online, the JF-17 should continue to see interative upgrades. If Gripen has no end in sight, why should the thunder? The aircraft will see significant improvements with a better powerplant which could allow it to continue serving deep into 2030s.

 

[Trango Towers]

1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.

2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.

3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.

4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.

Has anyone ever come across a military expert or an aviation expert describe the jf17 as underpowered?

 

[Tank131]

Has anyone ever come across a military expert or an aviation expert describe the jf17 as underpowered?

To give that description you have to fly it, and no one who flies it would ever put such a statement out. BUUT with a TWR <1:1 it definitely leaves a bit to be desired. This will be relavant to payload in addition to wing strenght. Getting something in the 21-23000lb range with similar reliability as RD-93 would help its performance considerably.

 

[Horse_Rider]

1. Stopping Thunder production after block 3 may seem premature. It depends on how effective it is and the availability of a more powerful powerplant. With the advent of the dual rails and Taimoor ALCM as well as numerous A2G weapons, it becomes even more cost effective even against J-10C. If the platform performs well, i see at least 1 more block likely.

2. Acquisition of J-10 production line: I think this also not be cost effective, depending on the production run of JF-17. If there is a block 4, there will be no need to produce J-10CE even if they continue to acquire it. It will be more cost effective to buy off shelf. EVEN if they get they get the line, lets PLEASE dispense with the JFT Blk 4 BS. It is not JFT. It is J-10CE. Its operating as J-10CE. The only reason you want to call it JFT blk4 is ego.

3. You want to convert an non-stealth design into a stealth design? This will yield a system that is neither truly stealth nor an effective 4.5 gen fighter. It will be far better for you to join one of these programs than morph a 4.5gen fighter that you will again be the only one operating. IF you opt to join the TFX program, you will need to secure an engine free of US and EU coercion. That likely means WS-10/WS-15 if they can get turks to agree to allow PAF to modify its own variant to allow for that change. It would have to be a PAF specific modification done by PAF/PAC given the political issues for a Nato country to work with China.

4. AZM is dead. People need to move on. Pakistan doesnt have the technical ability ir the industrial base to sustain a unique 5th gen program. In an economy of scale, it makes sense for PAF/PAC to partner with another nation on this, and given the need for diversity of partners and the developing synergy between Turkey and Pakistan's own defense industry, TFX is the right move.

I answered most of your questions / comments in that other post. I'll address the remaining one's here:
- JFT block III albeit very capably 4th gen platform, still has agility and other airframe related limitations (for example it's an 8g airframe when fighters it would complete with, the J-10 / F-16's, are a 9g+ airframes and very agile and I won't mention the weight issue, TWR, etc). So if they stop after block III and went to J-10CP in larger numbers (and acquired more F-16's AIM C-7/D's and AIM9 latest), it would make sense and thus, to make the J-10CP acquisition much cheaper, I mentioned the local assembly / limited ToT to standardize the platform (it would become the future Mirage of PAF but with 100% ability to upgrade as need be).

- Converting a 'non-stealth' fighter to "stealth one': Any airframe can be redesigned to become stealth optimized. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the J-20 seems like a larger J-10C with obvious changes for it to have twin engines. Just like it borrowed canards from the J-10, the J-10 (future stealth version) can borrow from J-20 and a stealth optimized / miniaturized airframe can be created, If Pakistan does go for ToT / assembly, it can produce the J-10CP's it needs (90 - 120) and re-tool the machines to produce the stealthy design around (2027-2030?). Obviously, it will need baby steps first. If it's under AZM or Tom and Jerry project, don't care. The work needs to get done with high quality and with our limited financials.

 

[Ghessan]

Just like it borrowed canards from the J-10, the J-10 (future stealth version) can borrow from J-20 and a stealth optimized / miniaturized airframe can be created

is China ready to do this? aren't they moving forward towards second 5th gen fighter, why experiment on J10