Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Horse_Rider]

How do you plan to finance this endeavor ??

We must be practical when suggesting any such idea. Its not even possible for PAF to completely replace the massive number of Mirages + F-7s / F-7PGs with JFTs and you are suggesting to do it with J-10CP ? Currently perhaps the most top tier aircraft of PAF ?

I am only seeing 25 J-10Cs or maybe 36 for atleast next 4-5 years. On a separate wishlist, we can keep adding as many as we want.

CAC has sold (or is selling) the J-10C manufacturing line to some Tier III aircraft manufacturer in China. The Chinese have met, or, are close to meeting their needed numbers for the J-10C. Their needs going forward are heavier and stealthier jets for their threat management (F-22, F-35, Japanese and Korean 5th Gen coming up, SU-30's, F-18's (potential Indian purchase), Rafales, Typhoons, and then the US 6th gen getting ready, stealthy UCAV's, etc, almost all twin engine heavier platforms). J-10's future role is internal / coastal defense, etc. This production line can be reused / setup by Pakistan cost effectively. It will benefit China, win-win for both as J-10C nicely meets Pakistan's needs.

So the orders need to revise in a way to include this license production. Another issue that makes this case is that the Chinese DO NOT want to collaborate with Turkey on projects (it's NATO) and vis-a-vis. So Pakistan needing Turkish weaponry for the J-10C will need to do it in Pakistan through Turkish tech consultants so why not build this capability in house.

J-10CP's standardized across PAF, and with a locally assembled future stealthy airframe (similar to J-20 single engine if you will) with Turkish / Chinese weaponry makes the best sense, especially with our financial situation, we can build an advance industry locally including limited stealth capability that can expand later and license produce much cheaper top tier jets.

1: " (and acquired more F-16's AIM C-7/D's and AIM9 latest),"
you are denying your own statement above. although i know we can acquire hardware from west.

2: " Converting a 'non-stealth' fighter to "stealth one': Any airframe can be redesigned to become stealth optimized."
are you sure what you are talking about? though i rule this out but still you can only make Chinese agree on it, we will back off on a feasibility once presented?

3: "but the J-20 seems like a larger J-10C with obvious changes for it to have twin engines"
above statement is enough i don't have say anything to ridicule.

4: "the J-10 (future stealth version) can borrow from"
is China planning on it???

5: "China will do whatever Pakistan will pay for"
refer to No. 2

" financial situation"
refer to No. 1

listen man, i have nothing against you but at least catch a clear direction.

this is my last reply to you... you can go on ...

i edited a bit

If you must get into an argument with me, at least do some due diligence properly. Tell you what, go review the above statements I made again and analyze them in depth. If you could understand what I was saying *and why*, I think you'd delete your post above.

If that doesn't happen, just let me know and I'll explain. Our political culture has taught us terribly and we've become so intense that we can't debate nicely. It's always the other one's wrong or doesn't know what he / she is saying and always some conspiracy theory involved.

 

[xyxmt]

I think Pakistan is going to take the J-35 and then rename it "Project Azm". lol

Yes we follow US blindly and claim other's tech as their own.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

CAC has sold (or is selling) the J-10C manufacturing line to some Tier III aircraft manufacturer in China. The Chinese have met, or, are close to meeting their needed numbers for the J-10C. Their needs going forward are heavier and stealthier jets for their threat management (F-22, F-35, Japanese and Korean 5th Gen coming up, SU-30's, F-18's (potential Indian purchase), Rafales, Typhoons, and then the US 6th gen getting ready, stealthy UCAV's, etc, almost all twin engine heavier platforms). J-10's future role is internal / coastal defense, etc. This production line can be reused / setup by Pakistan cost effectively. It will benefit China, win-win for both as J-10C nicely meets Pakistan's needs.

So the orders need to revise in a way to include this license production. Another issue that makes this case is that the Chinese DO NOT want to collaborate with Turkey on projects (it's NATO) and vis-a-vis. So Pakistan needing Turkish weaponry for the J-10C will need to do it in Pakistan through Turkish tech consultants so why not build this capability in house.

J-10CP's standardized across PAF, and with a locally assembled future stealthy airframe (similar to J-20 single engine if you will) with Turkish / Chinese weaponry makes the best sense, especially with our financial situation, we can build an advance industry locally including limited stealth capability that can expand later and license produce much cheaper top tier jet

I didn't even question the reason OR technicalities. My first basic question was how can we possibly finance this solution? We are very low in $$$ at this moment in time. The economy wasn't great anyways but has nose dived in last 8 months to imminent default risks. The J-10C maybe a low cost fighter jet for China but for PAF its a high cost aircraft. We have limited budget and the lion's share goes to Army, very less goes to Airforce & Navy.

PAF don't even have budget to replace over aged F-7s & Mirages with JFTs and you suggested to stop JFT production (a low cost modern fighter) and start producing J-10s and replace aging fleet with J-10s. This requires billions of dollars. See, no country likes to fly 2nd & 3rd gen fighters in 21st century. Only way we can replace the aging fleet with our budget is with JFTs till 2030s.

I didn't even factored in the huge initial cost of setting up production lines / or converting existing ones for J-10C ( even we didn't get into how it will work, whether China agrees to that or not but for argument's sake assuming that's all worked out )

Whether we like it or not, J-10Cs numbers will always be very limited in PAF atleast for this decade. With limited budget PAF has Hi-Low combination mix. Limited high end aircrafts like J-10C, F-16Bkl52s, JFT IIIs (only 50 ordered). and bulk of JFT I & II, Mirages & F-7s. Reality.

Yes, once economy is stabilized and improves a lot, exports improves a lot then ofcourse we can see PAF ordering more A/Cs and if numbers are enough to setup plant locally then they may think on it. Right now, there's zero possibility.

 

[CSAW]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599248815953162241

https://twitter.com/x/status/1597100058809634817

https://twitter.com/x/status/1545593949800337408

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589110821694902273

 

[Horse_Rider]

I didn't even question the reason OR technicalities. My first basic question was how can we possibly finance this solution? We are very low in $$$ at this moment in time. The economy wasn't great anyways but has nose dived in last 8 months to imminent default risks. The J-10C maybe a low cost fighter jet for China but for PAF its a high cost aircraft. We have limited budget and the lion's share goes to Army, very less goes to Airforce & Navy.

PAF don't even have budget to replace over aged F-7s & Mirages with JFTs and you suggested to stop JFT production (a low cost modern fighter) and start producing J-10s and replace aging fleet with J-10s. This requires billions of dollars. See, no country likes to fly 2nd & 3rd gen fighters in 21st century. Only way we can replace the aging fleet with our budget is with JFTs till 2030s.

I didn't even factored in the huge initial cost of setting up production lines / or converting existing ones for J-10C ( even we didn't get into how it will work, whether China agrees to that or not but for argument's sake assuming that's all worked out )

Whether we like it or not, J-10Cs numbers will always be very limited in PAF atleast for this decade. With limited budget PAF has Hi-Low combination mix. Limited high end aircrafts like J-10C, F-16Bkl52s, JFT IIIs (only 50 ordered). and bulk of JFT I & II, Mirages & F-7s. Reality.

Yes, once economy is stabilized and improves a lot, exports improves a lot then ofcourse we can see PAF ordering more A/Cs and if numbers are enough to setup plant locally then they may think on it. Right now, there's zero possibility.

You are right with "where's the money" question! So I know a couple people who always tell me exciting things about the J-35 and the TFX as these are on PAF's radar. I just saw a tweet with the publisher openly stating Pakistan's name as an interested part to J-35. My take? Pakistan in current worst situation is still a $ 250 Billion economy (albeit MUCH lesser than where it needs to be and high risk of further inflation not default anytime soon). So there will always be money, a couple billion additional here or there to buy critical defense articles. No country facing threats want to lose its territorial integrity due to week financials. Thus, we keep publicizing our future love affair wrt the AZM initiative (or 5th gen / J-35/TFX, etc). That's covers the money part.

Now this is where the analysis I provided above really make logical sense. Instead of acquiring J-10C in 70-90 numbers AND then buying say Akinci + KizilElma + TFX or KizilElma + Akinci / J-35, it would make sense to use funds ONCE for local assembly, produce needed J-10C's in numbers, stop JFT post block III, and then continue research & dev on turning J-10C stealthier like the J-20 using the Chinese industry. Once a stealth prototype for J-10C exists, assembly work will be done locally, we can start to integrate Turkish weaponry in it as well. We'll save billions by standardizing the J-10C airframe across PAF and will go 5th gen with it also. The CP version already has J-20's DNA in avionics and weapon wise and even at 58% local built, for example, that's saving billions $$ yearly.

One thing our planners need to understand and it's becoming obvious, if we want to keep some parity with India, we MUST start local industries and build stuff local be it through local assembly like Turkey did with the F-16's and Israel with Lavi! and now these two now have the fastest growing aviation industries. We can't go back to the 90's, when PAF's target reach of 400 jets was just 22 KM air to air and the other side could lock on us from Sri Nagar and Pathankot using BVR's! We've come a long way!!

 

[Ghessan]

If you must get into an argument with me, at least do some due diligence properly. Tell you what, go review the above statements I made again and analyze them in depth. If you could understand what I was saying *and why*, I think you'd delete your post above.

If that doesn't happen, just let me know and I'll explain. Our political culture has taught us terribly and we've become so intense that we can't debate nicely. It's always the other one's wrong or doesn't know what he / she is saying and always some conspiracy theory involved.

you forced me into this last reply to you.

i don't need to go into an argument and what depth is there to look into your messages? i put everything infront of you quoting your own statements which are controversial to each other. it was you who had to convince me where i was wrong but you took escape route by putting all burden on me.

and

where did i went rough with you? so that you are lecturing me, debate nicely? and no, i did not say you are wrong i just high light your statements opposing each other, which begs the question, does not a debate require a credible argument to begin with?

i told you i have nothing against you but atleast you come up with something debatable. even other members have tried to put a few things infront of you in their own words.

i give you a tip: do not be too much into a particular product when it comes to defense procurement with drain pipe approach. expand vision and look into it with bigger picture and you'll find how it works. IF you understand what i am trying to say.

 

[Trango Towers]

To give that description you have to fly it, and no one who flies it would ever put such a statement out. BUUT with a TWR <1:1 it definitely leaves a bit to be desired. This will be relavant to payload in addition to wing strenght. Getting something in the 21-23000lb range with similar reliability as RD-93 would help its performance considerably.

No you don't have to fly it. Most aircraft designers have never flown a fighterjet. You just made that up.
Listed TWR for jf17 is 1.07. You said min should be 1.1 well that's less than 3% of your desire. Game changing numbers??

People are fixated on the engine as they are on having a corolla

 

[Horse_Rider]

you forced me into this last reply to you.

i don't need to go into an argument and what depth is there to look into your messages? i put everything infront of you quoting your own statements which are controversial to each other. it was you who had to convince me where i was wrong but you took escape route by putting all burden on me.

and

where did i went rough with you? so that you are lecturing me, debate nicely? and no, i did not say you are wrong i just high light your statements opposing each other, which begs the question, does not a debate require a credible argument to begin with?

i told you i have nothing against you but atleast you come up with something debatable. even other members have tried to put a few things infront of you in their own words.

i give you a tip: do not be too much into a particular product when it comes to defense procurement with drain pipe approach. expand vision and look into it with bigger picture and you'll find how it works. IF you understand what i am trying to say.

No one forced you to do anything! What are you 10? Everything you are bringing up in this post has been answered above. The details I provided are based on basic analysis, some experience with manufacturing and understanding of our priorities and financial situation. Kindly refer to above posts. You mentioned my "contradictory statements" again. I told you before, go re-read those and try to comprehend the "why" I said what I said and if you understood it, you wouldn't have asked accusatory questions. End of discussion!

 

[VkdIndian]

Basically the same plane with minor airframe modification.

Minor modifications? Your information is incorrect dude.
MK IA is minor modification over previous versions. MK 2 is not.

MK 2 is a completely new aircraft.

 

[Indos]

Minor modifications? Your information is incorrect dude.
MK IA is minor modification over previous versions. MK 2 is not.

MK 2 is a completely new aircraft.

I am agree that it is not minor modification, but Pakistani member who raise the issue saying about modifying the fourth gen design into fifth gen design. In this perspective the modification of Tejas MK1 into MK2 is less complicated than that. I try to simplify it to him by saying minor modification as the Tejas MK2 is not a stealthy design aircraft.

 

[Sliver]

I am agree that it is not minor modification, but Pakistani member who raise the issue saying about modifying the fourth gen design into fifth gen design. In this perspective the modification of Tejas MK1 into MK2 is less complicated than that. I try to simplify it to him by saying minor modification as the Tejas MK2 is not a stealthy design aircraft.

converting a 4th gen to 5th gen isnt optimal - it would end up being more expensive than a regular 4th gen, but perform sub optimally for either 4th gen or 5th gen

true 5th gen requires a stealthy deisgn - which the 4th gen cannot aquire by simply adding some canards or a plug. adding RAM coatings to a 4th gen doesnt make it 5th gen - it just makes it stealthier 4th gen.

 

[Horse_Rider]

converting a 4th gen to 5th gen isnt optimal - it would end up being more expensive than a regular 4th gen, but perform sub optimally for either 4th gen or 5th gen

Kindly help me understand why turning a 4th Gen airframe into a 5th Gen wouldn't be optimal when a country has well established industry in stealth design / advance manufacturing to re-configure newer versions of the baseline airframe? We have a 4th gen J-10CP in this scenario that we'd like to use to standardize into a stealthy fighter jet.

We take the J-20's blue prints and it's design and manufacturing, we redesign the J-20's airframe to host a single engine and reduce it's aerodynamic configurations to support one engine. The same manufacturing line is "re-tooled" to create this airframe that would look like a new block of J-10CP (call this J-10ST for stealth for a minute) when in fact it's a new jet but for manufacturing / assembly, reusability, we standardized it and reused the existing manufacturing line saving dozens of billions long-term plus faster testing and deployment.

So why is this impossible? We can build a 3-D print prototype of it too for wind tunnel / RCS testing in a short amount of time. Your R&D on J-20 is already done so about 75% of the work on airframe, avionics, stealthy features, weapons, etc, is already done. We are just reusing the baseline and customizing it to save cost and standardize a single engine airframe as a platform all across. Just like J-10ST (my name so don't get too hung up), we can re-tool the assembly to create a J-10Q or J-10R for various specialized roles whether stealth or non-stealth configurations. This is the beauty of reusability and economies of scale.

 

[Indos]

converting a 4th gen to 5th gen isnt optimal - it would end up being more expensive than a regular 4th gen, but perform sub optimally for either 4th gen or 5th gen

true 5th gen requires a stealthy deisgn - which the 4th gen cannot aquire by simply adding some canards or a plug. adding RAM coatings to a 4th gen doesnt make it 5th gen - it just makes it stealthier 4th gen.

Actually Korean Aerospace tried to bring Stealthy single engine design based on F 16 (KFX type E) to challenge double engine design of KFX/IFX developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

Korean Aerospace design is rejected after long debate that I would say around 2 years within South Korean parliaments.

This is C100 design that become based design of KF21where the basic design is completed around end of 2012, later it is refined into C 103 design before KAI Korea and LM joined the program since 2016.

Check the year of 2012. That is before KAI Korea and Lockheed Martin joined the program since 2016.

Korean Aerospace design KFX type E that is rejected

 

[Horse_Rider]

Actually Korean Aerospace tried to bring Stealthy single engine design based on F 16 (KFX type E) to challenge double engine design of KFX/IFX developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace.

Korean Aerospace design is rejected after long debate that I would say around 2 years within South Korean parliaments.

This is C100 design that become based design of KF21where the basic design is completed around end of 2012, later it is refined into C 103 design before KAI Korea and LM joined the program since 2016.

Check the year of 2012. That is before KAI Korea and Lockheed Martin joined the program since 2016.

View attachment 904138

Korean Aerospace design KFX type E that is rejected

View attachment 904140

I saw the above pic first before reading your rest of the post and I was going to say that there is LM involved somehow. This is actually very interesting and feeds into what I was saying. LM used it's existing expertise and airframe design as the above looks like a single engined F-22. it would have restricted or reduced capability than the F-22 but it will borrow from it due to platform in production and mature and Korean customizations will be made to create their version of the platform.

This would be the same case if Pakistan went for a J-10 like J-20 (smaller / single engine) and one manufacturing line can build both versions of a similar airframe with different in manufacturing materials. The rest avionics / weapons / flight controls are borrowed from the production stealth jet).

 

[Indos]

I saw the above pic first before reading your rest of the post and I was going to say that there is LM involved somehow. This is actually very interesting and feeds into what I was saying. LM used it's existing expertise and airframe design as the above looks like a single engined F-22. it would have restricted or reduced capability than the F-22 but it will borrow from it due to platform in production and mature and Korean customizations will be made to create their version of the platform.

This would be the same case if Pakistan went for a J-10 like J-20 (smaller / single engine) and one manufacturing line can build both versions of a similar airframe with different in manufacturing materials. The rest avionics / weapons / flight controls are borrowed from the production stealth jet).

LM doesnt involve for C 100 and C 103 design. They joined the program later in 2016. Better you read the history before drawing conclution.

Current Design of KF21 is developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace but they do use F22 as inspiration. The same like every UCAV MALE shows similarity like US Predator MALE UCAV.

Korean Aerospace and LM does have contribution to refine C 103 into C 109 design. But as you can see on C 100 design, they look precisely like current design.

Here the story between 2011-2014. You can use English translation

Program KFX/IFX Dilanjutkan, Pemerintah Diminta Segera Memilih Desain

Angkasa Online - Majalah Aviasi dan Militer

web.archive.org

Or you can read Wikipedia