Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Raj-Hindustani]

Fix the economy first, after Indians has already had hundreds of their four generations of Tejas Mark 1, Tejas Mark 2, and TBF, then Pakistan can start thinking about inducting 5 generation fighters.

Let them put their resources to develop and manufacture those 4 gen fighters until the numbers are in hundreds while during that period Pakistan should focus on fixing the economy

Their focus on Tejas Mark1, Tejas Mark2, and TBF is a bless for Pakistan, better you use this period to build the economy as Pakistan have already had quite many four gen fighters.

Not really..

You can not replace your all-fighter planes with 5th Gen fighter planes. There is a reason still USA and others still flying 4 Gen fighters along with 5th Gen.

4th Gen will not be going anywhere before 2050. IAF will be flying HAL Tejas MK1A, Mk2 and TBF.... and hopefully, will fly AMCA before 2035... So will be able to start replacing the 4th Gen fighters before 2050.

About PAF, the most probable that they will fly a Chinese-made 5th fighter with some Modifications with a different name similar to already inducted other military types of equipment.

 

[Horse_Rider]

is China ready to do this? aren't they moving forward towards second 5th gen fighter, why experiment on J10

China will do whatever Pakistan will pay for. They are doing business and they do give us priority so that's always good.

 

[Ghessan]

China will do whatever Pakistan will pay for. They are doing business and they do give us priority so that's always good.

where did you learn this lesson?

if Pakistan can pay, then they have a lot of choices. and no they do not give us priority, as you said yourself, it is business.

but your definition of business is incorrect.

how far do you know Chinese? what if i tell you i have been visiting and dealing people in Hong Kong, China and Far East for over 25 years now and then i don't claim to be knowing them. still what i said above is true.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598337911614836737

 

[python-000]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598337911614836737

my choice will always remain J-35/J-31 for our PAF...

 

[renhai]

(im sure the turks dont want china's fingers in its projects).

I'm very very sure that China doesn't want to participate in military projects between Turkey-Pakistan.

 

[Horse_Rider]

where did you learn this lesson?

if Pakistan can pay, then they have a lot of choices. and no they do not give us priority, as you said yourself, it is business.

but your definition of business is incorrect.

how far do you know Chinese? what if i tell you i have been visiting and dealing people in Hong Kong, China and Far East for over 25 years now and then i don't claim to be knowing them. still what i said above is true.

Pakistan doesn't have "a lot of choices" because we can "pay". Our "we'll pay" is usually also conditional and others have to respect our poor financial situation and make arrangements for us! So NO, we don't have a lot of options and history is our witness. We paid for our F-16's and never got them, nor got the 18 block 52 optional! The EU won't sell us fighters due to India's influence. With Russians, both sides have a serious trust deficit.

The Chinese do give us preferential treatment to a point that's allowed in their system, 1: for our relationship with them and I think we are the ONLY country who has that semi-close of a relationship with them compared to the rest of the world and 2: due to their own interest in Gawader / CPEC and to counter India in the Arabian sea as India can try to cut China off in the future in the Indian ocean with USN / NATO!

 

[Horse_Rider]

my choice will always remain J-35/J-31 for our PAF...

I opt for license assembly and later production / manufacturing of J-10CP in house and increase the numbers to remove all Mirages + F-7's (200 left?). Stop on JFT after block III. Standardize J-10CP all across PAF in numbers. And then build a J-10CP based stealthy airframe through Chinese help and assemble and later codevelop majority of the airframe ourselves around 2030. This can be called AZM still?

Use Turkish (TFX / KizilElma AI) and Chinese (J-20 / J-31) tech in this stealthy iteration of J-10CP. This way you have a locally assembled airframe and we build a stealth materials related industry also. J-10CP already uses miniaturized J-20's tech so enhancing that would be easy. Plus we get Turkish options too and integrate locally through technical consultants from Turkey and China and train our people.

So our airframe (or majority of it) and Chinese + Turkish weaponry / EW. We can get the best of both worlds. Otherwise we'll have to pick one. The Chinese will NOT codevelop anything with Turks and vis-a-vis. This will establish a huge local industry and can save many billions of $$. Plus one licensed assembly line for J-10CP can later be "re-tooled" to produce a heavier airframe so economies of scale all over.

 

[Ghessan]

Pakistan doesn't have "a lot of choices" because we can "pay". Our "we'll pay" is usually also conditional and others have to respect our poor financial situation and make arrangements for us! So NO, we don't have a lot of options and history is our witness. We paid for our F-16's and never got them, nor got the 18 block 52 optional! The EU won't sell us fighters due to India's influence. With Russians, both sides have a serious trust deficit.

The Chinese do give us preferential treatment to a point that's allowed in their system, 1: for our relationship with them and I think we are the ONLY country who has that semi-close of a relationship with them compared to the rest of the world and 2: due to their own interest in Gawader / CPEC and to counter India in the Arabian sea as India can try to cut China off in the future in the Indian ocean with USN / NATO!

forum is full of such assumptions and ofcourse you can live with your opinion.

 

[TheSolution]

I opt for license assembly and later production / manufacturing of J-10CP in house and increase the numbers to remove all Mirages + F-7's (200 left?). Stop on JFT after block III. Standardize J-10CP all across PAF in numbers. And then build a J-10CP based stealthy airframe through Chinese help and assemble and later codevelop majority of the airframe ourselves around 2030. This can be called AZM still?

Use Turkish (TFX / KizilElma AI) and Chinese (J-20 / J-31) tech in this stealthy iteration of J-10CP. This way you have a locally assembled airframe and we build a stealth materials related industry also. J-10CP already uses miniaturized J-20's tech so enhancing that would be easy. Plus we get Turkish options too and integrate locally through technical consultants from Turkey and China and train our people.

So our airframe (or majority of it) and Chinese + Turkish weaponry / EW. We can get the best of both worlds. Otherwise we'll have to pick one. The Chinese will NOT codevelop anything with Turks and vis-a-vis. This will establish a huge local industry and can save many billions of $$. Plus one licensed assembly line for J-10CP can later be "re-tooled" to produce a heavier airframe so economies of scale all over.

J-10CP based stealthy airframe? So a canard-delta wing design, i.e the J-20?

 

[Horse_Rider]

forum is full of such assumptions and ofcourse you can live with your opinion.

Where do you see assumptions in my post? Do you not know our F-16's were embargoed? Or, how we were denied various French and British weapons due to Indian pressure? I don't write fanboy stuff. I've been around this stuff for a while.

J-10CP based stealthy airframe? So a canard-delta wing design, i.e the J-20?

Yes, but single engine airframe as that's what fits the PAF's requirements and the threat it faces, financial situation, sustainment and in house development in larger quantities than a twin engined J-20. So you'd have to make a smaller airframe. Not difficult to change airframe dimensions.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

I opt for license assembly and later production / manufacturing of J-10CP in house and increase the numbers to remove all Mirages + F-7's (200 left?).

How do you plan to finance this endeavor ??

We must be practical when suggesting any such idea. Its not even possible for PAF to completely replace the massive number of Mirages + F-7s / F-7PGs with JFTs and you are suggesting to do it with J-10CP ? Currently perhaps the most top tier aircraft of PAF ?

I am only seeing 25 J-10Cs or maybe 36 for atleast next 4-5 years. On a separate wishlist, we can keep adding as many as we want.

 

[Indos]

Yes, but single engine airframe as that's what fits the PAF's requirements and the threat it faces, financial situation, sustainment and in house development in larger quantities than a twin engined J-20. So you'd have to make a smaller airframe. Not difficult to change airframe dimensions.

Just see Indian Tejas Mark 1 and Mark 2, they will only be able to roll out Mark 2 first prototype in 2026/2027. Basically the same plane with minor airframe modification.

HAL Tejas Mk2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ghessan]

Where do you see assumptions in my post? Do you not know our F-16's were embargoed? Or, how we were denied various French and British weapons due to Indian pressure? I don't write fanboy stuff. I've been around this stuff for a while.



Yes, but single engine airframe as that's what fits the PAF's requirements and the threat it faces, financial situation, sustainment and in house development in larger quantities than a twin engined J-20. So you'd have to make a smaller airframe. Not difficult to change airframe dimensions.

1: " (and acquired more F-16's AIM C-7/D's and AIM9 latest),"
you are denying your own statement above. although i know we can acquire hardware from west.

2: " Converting a 'non-stealth' fighter to "stealth one': Any airframe can be redesigned to become stealth optimized."
are you sure what you are talking about? though i rule this out but still you can only make Chinese agree on it, we will back off on a feasibility once presented?

3: "but the J-20 seems like a larger J-10C with obvious changes for it to have twin engines"
above statement is enough i don't have say anything to ridicule.

4: "the J-10 (future stealth version) can borrow from"
is China planning on it???

5: "China will do whatever Pakistan will pay for"
refer to No. 2

" financial situation"
refer to No. 1

listen man, i have nothing against you but at least catch a clear direction.

this is my last reply to you... you can go on ...

i edited a bit

 

[Indos]

Not really..

You can not replace your all-fighter planes with 5th Gen fighter planes. There is a reason still USA and others still flying 4 Gen fighters along with 5th Gen.

4th Gen will not be going anywhere before 2050. IAF will be flying HAL Tejas MK1A, Mk2 and TBF.... and hopefully, will fly AMCA before 2035... So will be able to start replacing the 4th Gen fighters before 2050.

About PAF, the most probable that they will fly a Chinese-made 5th fighter with some Modifications with a different name similar to already inducted other military types of equipment.

LOL of course they will not grounded those thousands fighters as those planes are still useful in the environment where not many Fifth gen fighters are operated by most countries. You also dont grounded fighters like F 16 and F15 that can still operate as they can be used for bombing mission after all of the enemy SAM system and Air Force is eliminated by fifth gen fighters and cruise missiles.

They also can be used to challenge another 4 generation fighters plane and also for patrol or catching civilian planes within their air space until their lifespan is over. Any way the induction of F15 EX has more economic tendency than military ones as Boeing has financial difficulties and needs to be helped.

Any way under US new administration, they are not willing to induct F15 EX more than the ones that have already been ordered during Trump administration. Trump administration is also very economic centric one.

Future is 5 generation planes and USA keeps producing 5 gen planes whether fighters or bombers