Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Sensors, lighter designs, AI are making a whole new world of weapons possible. Essentially a bomb with a wing(for both air and ground roles), not only sharing it's own information but receiving critical data to release it's payload at the most opportune time.

A swarm of such "armed wings" loitering and commanded both via air and ground stations taking out targets at standoff and in theater will change modern conflict. Onus remains on strength of sensors, electromagnetic sphere and communications ability. This, a cheaper alternative to critical theater missions and ability to launch at standoff ranges will reduce the need for numbers, especially in fighter aircraft arena... which again may find their use in deep strike roles, thus mandating a niche for larger stealthier bombers or J-20 like interceptors.

At the end of the day each weapon has a philosophy behind it fulfilling a niche and ground circumstances. How quickly one is assessed and fielded makes a difference of life and death, win or loss. Sensors in the pipeline, besides an increasing use of dedicated satellites will make stealth aircrafts again a niche, create have and have nots, just like WMD's. And whoever fields these will again of course depend on their end use, offensive or defensive.

 

[Caprxl]

This 13.5-14 m wingspan puts it in the class of Wing Loong I. Maybe Azm's MALE is just a license production/modification of the Wing Loong I, who knows?

It's not

 

[JamD]

It's not

That would certainly make me happiest.

However, by license production I include the possibility of just taking the airframe design (to save time in developing that from scratch) and developing all the avionics and payload locally. This would look like a Wing Loong 1 but would really be a local product. Of course I am only speculating and I don't know what's what. You might.

 

[MIRauf]

forget about export
Bilal just made a passing remark and this project is not even with a mind of capturing export market.
nothing you say is wrong but you wrote an entire thesis on his sentence which is but a small portion to his main post

No Thesis, just an old man's rant. Message was that just PAF being it's sole customer the cost / unit will be high. Long story short, for people that are concerned about what it will cost, you can't place "Price" on your defense.

 

[Caprxl]

However, by license production I include the possibility of just taking the airframe design (to save time in developing that from scratch)

Actually I wish it was true, as refining the design due to indigenous effort is causing more delays but this is the learning curve & it is expected. Nevertheless the experience being gained is worth it while drawback is it is taking a chunk of extra time.

and developing all the avionics and payload locally.

Couldn't agree more as from the beginning the project was visioned as an Homegrown effort & so is resulting in delays.

Any idea about power plant? Has it been discussed what will power the UAV ?

 

[JamD]

Actually I wish it was true, as refining the design due to indigenous effort is causing more delays but this is the learning curve & it is expected. Nevertheless the experience being gained is worth it while drawback is it is taking a chunk of extra time.



Couldn't agree more as from the beginning the project was visioned as an Homegrown effort & so is resulting in delays.

Any idea about power plant? Has it been discussed what will power the UAV ?

Considering it's size and AWC's prior experience with Shahpar I would assume some Rotax engine.

 

[Itachi]

Hi,

Engine---we all talk about engine---modern fighter aircraft engine---but we do not understand how difficult---next to impossible that task is.

We talk about make the turbine blades---. I learnt something ---.

Why do the blades fracture---. It is the micro impurity in the material used---at the microscopic molecular level---the spinning force that makes the impure molecule separate & CREEPS away from its position---thus creating the begining of a micro fracture---.

The information that I learnt years ago and posted on this forum---that the chinese snooped and the west obliged by leaking out tainted information regarding the percentages and level of purity of the metals used---.

I liked your videos you posted of the fat Spanish guy, who talked about Quantum radars...

Why did you stop posting them? Also, if you find his YT channel again, please let me know. I have been trying to find it for a long time.

 

[MastanKhan]

I liked your videos you posted of the fat Spanish guy, who talked about Quantum radars...

Why did you stop posting them? Also, if you find his YT channel again, please let me know. I have been trying to find it for a long time.

Hi,

He is Millenium 7 on youtube---.

 

[sal29]

I usually don't post in these kinds of threads as the threads get too long and its hard to keep up with all the discussions going on. As an engineer by profession I thought I would give my 2 cents.

Regarding a new clean sheet stealth fighter design I think it is too ambitious for PAF due to budget and technical expertise constraints. Now PAF can come with a concept design but taking a project from concept design to design verification to development to prototyping and then to industrialization takes a lot of time and a ton of money which we don't have. Also look at it this way as well if (that is a big if) even we are able mass produce this fighter indigenously it will be too expensive as we won't have many buyers. All the militarizes that have budgets to buy these kinds of expensive planes in numbers have their own programs. The only deep pockets that are left who could potentially buy this plan is the middle east and I doubt they would buy it either as they have access to western tech and they prefer it. I don't think it makes sense to take this route. The best approach I think would be to have a joint venture with other countries so that it can be mass produced. We should try to have an assembly line here not just for the manufacturing and assembly of frame but for subsystems as well and possibly design and manufacture few critical subsystems especially avionics + parts of the frame itself to become cohesively attached to the supply chain.

Having said that I think Project Azm should focus more on

- SAM systems (Area denial with layered approach) missiles, communication and radar systems
- Smart munitions
- Autonomous and Semi autonomous Stealth Drones both MALE and HALE and creating integration between drones and fighter jets
- Drone Swarms or loitering munitions
- EM warfare suites
- High bandwidth communication equipment

Compared to a full fledged fighter jets they are less costly both in terms of R&D and industrialization and in any future war they will be big deciding factor.

Now to achieve this what is most important is a change of mind set of PAF and military in general. They should start investing in private sector in Pakistan with a guaranteed funding (there are always conditions attached e.g profit cannot be taken in certain scenarios) for R&D as employees cannot be retained without it (currently its ... you invest in R&D + industrialization and if we like it we might buy it. I am telling from personal experience of developing and finally deploying some machines for Army related to artillery and tank maintenance). We are facing a multi dimensional problem in R&D sector of Pakistan. We have low quality engineering graduates, we maybe able to field like 1500 max good graduates combined in field of electronics, mechanical, embedded systems, software, materials (almost non existent), physics and we also have a brain drain problem as a lot of them leave Pakistan. This can be changed by investing in local companies as they can retain and train some of these good caliber graduates which would help us ten fold in the long run.

The local companies also have to become more inter-connected and start sharing IP as its the collaboration that helps make an exceptional product. We also need to start importing (with help of R&D budget) test equipment both in electronics as well as material testing.

Now coming towards industrialization. Currently Pakistan does not have any industrial base for high tech equipment manufacturing. Its even hard to find a vendor which can do SMD placement on PCB. Getting a plastic mold from design to manufacturing is a big hassle. I know Kamra has some capabilities but they are for their own use and cannot be used by private sector. We can find most machines from abroad China, Japan etc so that is not going to be a problem if funding is there and I think it should be done by the Universities also as then there will be a teaching component to it with industry having unhindered access to that equipment. What we should focus on is the coming revolution in part manufacturing i.e composites and 3d printing. In the next 10+ years most composite will be 3d printed (along with other processes to make it a finished product) and we wont have access to that specific technology which can mass produce composite part or 3d printed metal parts. This technology is not that difficult to develop compared to a jet engine and it is going to be vital for us in the coming decade. Unfortunately its a big hassle to even import 200$ 3d printer so manufacturing these kinds machines locally is just a dream for now.

I don't know if there is any collaboration going on in Pakistan with like minded individuals with technical expertise as well as with money and connections to make this happen but I hope we do.

 

[Itachi]

Hi,

He is Millenium 7 on youtube---.

Muchas Gracias!

 

[m52k85]

DSir,

You have spoken too much---. There was no need for this---.

Can you tell us what he has said that is "too much". He has only pointed towards general topics that go into various military applications. In fact I would say that's exactly the kind of posts we need on here. It helps to motivate defence enthusiast, many of whom are young and deciding on the courses to take up at uni.

If I had this sort of info when I was in uni I wouldnt be sleeping through my Set Theory class in undergrad..

 

[MastanKhan]

Can you tell us what he has said that is "too much". He has only pointed towards general topics that go into various military applications. In fact I would say that's exactly the kind of posts we need on here. It helps to motivate defence enthusiast, many of whom are young and deciding on the courses to take up at uni.

If I had this sort of info when I was in uni I wouldnt be sleeping through my Set Theory class in undergrad..

Hi,

Espionage is like a jigsaw puzzle---. The operator just has to put small pieces---hints---comments gathered from different locations to fill in the holes to get a complete picture.

Here is how it works---. There is general information out there---and we all know that it is----. Then suddenly a young kids makes a comment---posters ask---how do you know---he blabbers my dad is a colonel---I overheard him talking to my uncles.

Now this piece fits into the part of something close to a confirmation---or---a comment comes in---we already have that item---my uncle manages that item---. How do you know---I was sitting in the room when my uncle told my dad.

So---your knowing about it does not mean much---but when it is explurged with reference---it creates a confirmation--that becomes a breakthrough---.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Meet the Su-57 ‘Lite’: Russia Working on Single Engine Next Generation Fighter to Compete with America’s F-35

Russia is developing a new next generation fighter jet to complement the heavier Su-57 fighter and upcoming MiG-41 heavy interceptor. The aircraft is expected to share

militarywatchmagazine.com

Considering it's size and AWC's prior experience with Shahpar I would assume some Rotax engine.

Canada stopped Rotax supply to Turkey they will do same if we start getting customers and we threaten their industry. Better to make your own or get a Turks to help.

Drones usually have small turbo prop or piston engine. Is that really that complex?

If we skip such core technologies then West will blackmail us for sure.

 

[Goenitz]

I am telling from personal experience of developing and finally deploying some machines for Army related to artillery and tank maintenance). We are facing a multi dimensional problem in R&D sector of Pakistan. We have low quality engineering graduates, we maybe able to field like 1500 max good graduates combined in field of electronics, mechanical, embedded systems, software, materials (almost non existent), physics and we also have a brain drain problem as a lot of them leave Pakistan. This can be changed by investing in local companies as they can retain and train some of these good caliber graduates which would help us ten fold in the long run.

That is the only way. I hav argued in RAAD 2 thread the same. We have to train our people first. To train locally we need Prof who has done at least 10 years of research work and written 15 good papers etc. Else send them EU (exl Nether, UK, etc other expensive countries) to study Controls, Mechanical, Automobile, Computer Engineering etc and create an engineering pool. Then only after 15 years we can ask some to come back with industrial skills by offering them lucrative salaries. Till then look for joint programs.
Again emphasising to make a bread, a company doesn't necessarily has to grow wheat, procure salt mines, yeast factory etc., own its own.....

 

[JamD]

Meet the Su-57 ‘Lite’: Russia Working on Single Engine Next Generation Fighter to Compete with America’s F-35

Russia is developing a new next generation fighter jet to complement the heavier Su-57 fighter and upcoming MiG-41 heavy interceptor. The aircraft is expected to share

militarywatchmagazine.com

Canada stopped Rotax supply to Turkey they will do same if we start getting customers and we threaten their industry. Better to make your own or get a Turks to help.

Drones usually have small turbo prop or piston engine. Is that really that complex?

If we skip such core technologies then West will blackmail us for sure.

This is a very real threat. I hope there are some programs in place for this. Small aviation engines shouldn't be out of reach of PAC's capabilities at all.