Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Akh1112]

Like, if we give China the fighter, let's do helicopters with Turkey (ATAK-2 & 10-ton Transport Helicopter), frigates with the Turks (MILGEM-J/TF-2000), submarines with South Korea, large FACs with the Netherlands, armour with the Poles and Ukrainians, rifles with the Czechs, radars with Saab/Sweden, and pangay on our own

But in seriousness, we need to start channeling offsets to the private sector. I am confident that if we build investor confidence into raising capacity to support production, they could eventually branch into original R&D. PAC might be 'stuck' with testing, integration and assembly work, but we could have other companies doing other stuff. Some might even get their own IP for some key inputs, and allow us to add real value later on.

Right now, our defence procurement brings $0 in support to the private sector. If we can give them $1 b in work every year (which is doable for us), then I do think our investors and firms will rise to the occasion.

Agreed, it just annoys me so much how we settle for what we have, Israel is such a good example of what we could have been, we really, really need to invest in R&D, heck, even make the WORST stuff to have ever been bought onto the face of this earth, but its a start, it builds experience and enables innovation. If we keep relying on license production/ToT we are just gonna be stuck in this cycle of mediocre stuff and relying on imports. Heck, even South Korea is a great example to follow in terms of a domestic industry!

Whatever Pac, Kamra or Avrid are. As you said, even if they cannot distribute high money to the private sector, can they not publish a large and small product range for SME level enterprises? So you can help reduce the dependency on a 2nd party country, so you are a country with a high population

You know, I don't know, Aselsan has a website for SMEs to supply products that it can produce for entrepreneurs but it is ridiculous for him to open a production line for it. There is an announcement area for sub units such as RF power amplifiers, capacitors, axial military standard fans etc. used in the own products. If you can produce these products in these components, it hires you as a supplier, so it prefers to don't buy it from China.


https://gucumuzbir.com/
https://gucumuzbir.com/millilestirme-calismalari/millilestirme-kapsamindaki-urunler

It also encourages those who want to start this business by sharing the HD quality of the products that are procured from its official Twitter account some time, by publishing it with the name of its supplier.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1267697225930588160

Even with just one site, you can get these things on your way

Instead of focussing on actually useful things, PAC is worried about making utterly terrible consumer tablets. may i remind you of this monstrosity:

 

[maverick1977]

Agreed, it just annoys me so much how we settle for what we have, Israel is such a good example of what we could have been, we really, really need to invest in R&D, heck, even make the WORST stuff to have ever been bought onto the face of this earth, but its a start, it builds experience and enables innovation. If we keep relying on license production/ToT we are just gonna be stuck in this cycle of mediocre stuff and relying on imports. Heck, even South Korea is a great example to follow in terms of a domestic industry!




Instead of focussing on actually useful things, PAC is worried about making utterly terrible consumer tablets. may i remind you of this monstrosity:

every failure is a learning experience.. i have failed more than i have succeeded.. may 5 times more failure than success but i learned and grew

 

[Akh1112]

every failure is a learning experience.. i have failed more than i have succeeded.. may 5 times more failure than success but i learned and grew

precisely.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Agreed, it just annoys me so much how we settle for what we have, Israel is such a good example of what we could have been, we really, really need to invest in R&D, heck, even make the WORST stuff to have ever been bought onto the face of this earth, but its a start, it builds experience and enables innovation. If we keep relying on license production/ToT we are just gonna be stuck in this cycle of mediocre stuff and relying on imports. Heck, even South Korea is a great example to follow in terms of a domestic industry!




Instead of focussing on actually useful things, PAC is worried about making utterly terrible consumer tablets. may i remind you of this monstrosity:

Towards the end of the 90s, Aselsan was producing Motorola quality phones, but I can say that they are doing this because it is one of the world's leading RF / radio - transmitter companies, or it can be shown as an example of manufacturing MR devices now. After all, you produce radar and certain receivers. Considering that PAC is an air complex company, the tablet business was a little ridiculous.

I think that the main reason for this is the problem of corporatization, you should find the mistake in your own entrepreneurial mindset.
They may have been obliged to do this because you suffered from the absence of such a domestic capital company in the market. Likewise, we suffer from the construction industry in this regard.

 

[jupiter2007]

It require vision and long term planning. Government create hurdles for every company. We can fix the financial laws and make it easy for people to invest in startup companies, we will see a actual growth in next 5 to 10 years. Government should also give 5 years of tax Break to Startup companies.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Towards the end of the 90s, Aselsan was producing Motorola quality phones, but I can say that they are doing this because it is one of the world's leading RF / radio - transmitter companies, or it can be shown as an example of manufacturing MR devices now. After all, you produce radar and certain receivers. Considering that PAC is an air complex company, the tablet business was a little ridiculous.

I think that the main reason for this is the problem of corporatization, you should find the mistake in your own entrepreneurial mindset.
They may have been obliged to do this because you suffered from the absence of such a domestic capital company in the market. Likewise, we suffer from the construction industry in this regard.

Pakistan could've had its own Aselsan in the form of Margalla Electronics. So, what happened? Pakistan.

Whatever Pac, Kamra or Avrid are. As you said, even if they cannot distribute high money to the private sector, can they not publish a large and small product range for SME level enterprises? So you can help reduce the dependency on a 2nd party country, so you are a country with a high population

You know, I don't know, Aselsan has a website for SMEs to supply products that it can produce for entrepreneurs but it is ridiculous for him to open a production line for it. There is an announcement area for sub units such as RF power amplifiers, capacitors, axial military standard fans etc. used in the own products. If you can produce these products in these components, it hires you as a supplier, so it prefers to don't buy it from China.


https://gucumuzbir.com/
https://gucumuzbir.com/millilestirme-calismalari/millilestirme-kapsamindaki-urunler

It also encourages those who want to start this business by sharing the HD quality of the products that are procured from its official Twitter account some time, by publishing it with the name of its supplier.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1267697225930588160

Even with just one site, you can get these things on your way

@JamD will have some thoughts. But the short of it is that Pakistan's state-owned enterprises (PAC, etc) opted for a heavy level of vertical integration.

PAC won't even let the private sector supply screws, even though the private sector is actually capable of doing much, much more (e.g., Integrated Dynamics could do UAV design work and development on its own).

Basically, the folks at the top lack the vision and drive to 'nation build.' That's why there's no real interest in building up the private sector, pursuing offsets, enabling pro-R&D environments, etc.

 

[Akh1112]

Towards the end of the 90s, Aselsan was producing Motorola quality phones, but I can say that they are doing this because it is one of the world's leading RF / radio - transmitter companies, or it can be shown as an example of manufacturing MR devices now. After all, you produce radar and certain receivers. Considering that PAC is an air complex company, the tablet business was a little ridiculous.

I think that the main reason for this is the problem of corporatization, you should find the mistake in your own entrepreneurial mindset.
They may have been obliged to do this because you suffered from the absence of such a domestic capital company in the market. Likewise, we suffer from the construction industry in this regard.

Completely agree, Aselsan actually did something useful. PAC did something questionable. Im all for PAC producing the most ridiculous stuff they can, as long as they learn something from it

 

[faani83]

Pakistan could've had its own Aselsan in the form of Margalla Electronics. So, what happened? Pakistan.


@JamD will have some thoughts. But the short of it is that Pakistan's state-owned enterprises (PAC, etc) opted for a heavy level of vertical integration.

PAC won't even let the private sector supply screws, even though the private sector is actually capable of doing much, much more (e.g., Integrated Dynamics could do UAV design work and development on its own).

Basically, the folks at the top lack the vision and drive to 'nation build.' That's why there's no real interest in building up the private sector, pursuing offsets, enabling pro-R&D environments, etc.

You are right.Private sector should flourish. Specially companies like ID. just llok what Baykar TEchnologies did with Akinci...! I am adding Very interesting recent documentary on its evoultion. Do you guys think Project AZM MALE would be similar?

 

[MastanKhan]

It's been 3 years into the mission , projected 10 year cycle to make a new Fighter Jet
Pretty difficult to assess how far the Scientist are in their initial designs

I hope some news comes out by 5th year at least on proposed design or Prototype

Hi,

15 to 20 years for a potent and capable 5th gen aircraft.

 

[JamD]

Pakistan could've had its own Aselsan in the form of Margalla Electronics. So, what happened? Pakistan.


@JamD will have some thoughts. But the short of it is that Pakistan's state-owned enterprises (PAC, etc) opted for a heavy level of vertical integration.

PAC won't even let the private sector supply screws, even though the private sector is actually capable of doing much, much more (e.g., Integrated Dynamics could do UAV design work and development on its own).

Basically, the folks at the top lack the vision and drive to 'nation build.' That's why there's no real interest in building up the private sector, pursuing offsets, enabling pro-R&D environments, etc.

The tablet business sounds like fauji uncle going "dant warry sar we can make this blady tabelts to pramote industry". Poor guys probably had the best intentions but are after all trained soldiers and not businessmen or tech entrepreneurs. I honestly don't think it's corruption or bad intent. It's just incompetence and an inflated sense of self.

When I first saw the level of vertical integration at PAC I must admit I was impressed that they were doing SO MUCH stuff. However, as I've matured I've realized how bad that is. Like you mentioned about the screws; there's an entire building with machines with a good number of technicians who's only job is to make screws. I often narrate this example because of the following reasons:
1.They literally machine screws on lathes. Any car mechanic can do it. So nothing specialized for aerospace. Maybe materials and heat treatment. But that's nothing.
2. There's no breach of security if a private company does it. I don't have state secrets if I make screws for JF-17. IMO the threshold for "secrecy" is ridiculous in Pakistan but I present the screws as an example that no one can argue with.
What I've seen with my own eyes is that these technicians sit in their offices/workshop all day. They are maybe working 20% of the time they are paid for by the government (taxpayer = YOU AND ME). They're not lazy, no. They are extremely talented and motivated people (you can tell by talking to them) but the whole setup is ridiculous. An aircraft manufacturing factory has no business making these things.

Similarly there's an entire building at PAC whose job is making rubber parts/gaskets. I mean seriously. These things are so inefficient it's not funny. I can go on to list many many many things that the private sector can make for PAC because they'll be:
1. Dual use- so the private sector can sell it to other people
2. Cheaper to make - because of 1 and because pvt sector works for profit
3. There will be no breach of "national security" since these things will be so low on the technical ladder.

Our fauji uncles don't let pvt sector make screws, how will they let pvt sector make drones?

**
Coming to why SOEs have these horrendous levels of vertical integration: Honestly IMO its a misplaced sense of superiority. "Bloody civilians can't possibly make these things, we have to make them ourselves". Because of course fauji uncles know best about everything.

 

[faani83]

Guys would AZM have VTOL on the likes of chinese J35? It could be very important in conflict as PAF MOBs & runways are likely to be hit first!!!!!!

 

[Deino]

Guys would AZM have VTOL on the likes of chinese J35? It could be very important in conflict as PAF MOBs & runways are likely to be hit first!!!!!!

I don't think so and I also don't know where you from that the J-35 will have VTOL-capabilities.

It won't have this.

 

[Silicon0000]

I don't think so and I also don't know where you from that the J-35 will have VTOL-capabilities.

It won't have this.

A Fanboy has poked you, be ready many to follow

Making VTOL is like making toys.
China will offer everything including technology free of cost to Pakistan, actually pay for their development also and all this is actually in Chinese favor.
J35 will have all features which they can think off.
Pakistan is very small country and India can destroy all airports and highways which can be used for aircraft to fly and all that without shooting down PAF and having Air supremacy.
And the list goes on .....................

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Probably desi star plus politics either within the company or outside must've made it a defunct org.

So, what happened? Pakistan.

Agreed, it just annoys me so much how we settle for what we have, Israel is such a good example of what we could have been, we really, really need to invest in R&D, heck, even make the WORST stuff to have ever been bought onto the face of this earth, but its a start, it builds experience and enables innovation. If we keep relying on license production/ToT we are just gonna be stuck in this cycle of mediocre stuff and relying on imports. Heck, even South Korea is a great example to follow in terms of a domestic industry!




Instead of focussing on actually useful things, PAC is worried about making utterly terrible consumer tablets. may i remind you of this monstrosity:

Exactly why we keep giving our few precious billions to gora. We should invest it into an R&D venture that might give us some return, then we could re invest all over again. We could start small if need to(not saying this just for PAC, but also for WAH, HIT and KSEW)

 

[Armchair]

The tablet business sounds like fauji uncle going "dant warry sar we can make this blady tabelts to pramote industry". Poor guys probably had the best intentions but are after all trained soldiers and not businessmen or tech entrepreneurs. I honestly don't think it's corruption or bad intent. It's just incompetence and an inflated sense of self.

When I first saw the level of vertical integration at PAC I must admit I was impressed that they were doing SO MUCH stuff. However, as I've matured I've realized how bad that is. Like you mentioned about the screws; there's an entire building with machines with a good number of technicians who's only job is to make screws. I often narrate this example because of the following reasons:
1.They literally machine screws on lathes. Any car mechanic can do it. So nothing specialized for aerospace. Maybe materials and heat treatment. But that's nothing.
2. There's no breach of security if a private company does it. I don't have state secrets if I make screws for JF-17. IMO the threshold for "secrecy" is ridiculous in Pakistan but I present the screws as an example that no one can argue with.
What I've seen with my own eyes is that these technicians sit in their offices/workshop all day. They are maybe working 20% of the time they are paid for by the government (taxpayer = YOU AND ME). They're not lazy, no. They are extremely talented and motivated people (you can tell by talking to them) but the whole setup is ridiculous. An aircraft manufacturing factory has no business making these things.

Similarly there's an entire building at PAC whose job is making rubber parts/gaskets. I mean seriously. These things are so inefficient it's not funny. I can go on to list many many many things that the private sector can make for PAC because they'll be:
1. Dual use- so the private sector can sell it to other people
2. Cheaper to make - because of 1 and because pvt sector works for profit
3. There will be no breach of "national security" since these things will be so low on the technical ladder.

Our fauji uncles don't let pvt sector make screws, how will they let pvt sector make drones?

**
Coming to why SOEs have these horrendous levels of vertical integration: Honestly IMO its a misplaced sense of superiority. "Bloody civilians can't possibly make these things, we have to make them ourselves". Because of course fauji uncles know best about everything.

This is not only abysmal for the country's development but also worrying for Project Azm. With the sheer scale and complexity, the number of subsystems will be well beyond PAC's ability to build, particularly if they are over ambitious, this could potentially cause Azm to fail.