Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

[StormBreaker]

You are missing some key information. I wish to add to your pool of information, to help you update your world view.

During Musharraf's time when USAID PhD scholarships were in full effect, a group of Pakistani students ran an experiment. In the interview for USAID, they were asked questions such as 'How do you think you can help with America's perception in Pakistan' etc. One of them gave extremely confrontational answers such as 'American needs to help itself if it wants to improve its perception in Pakistan' etc. The others gave the obvious answers. I learnt this first hand from one of the students who gave the 'obvious answers': "As I was leaving the meeting room, the door started shutting behind me. The committee, thinking the door has completely shut, started their evaluation while the door was open just a crack. This is what I heard: 'He seems to have the kind of mind that we can mold...'". And so we have first hand proof, right from the horse's mouth: they are looking for weak, subservient minds that they can mold. The significant thing is that this is the FIRST thing they discussed. For a PhD program where one has to display intellectual capacity, creativity, depth of knowledge in one's field, a yearning for research and learning, they VERY FIRST thing they evaluated as soon as they thought the candidate is out of earshot, was ability to mold the mind.

The guy who gave confrontational answers did not make it. Let me assure you he is outstandingly smart, with an excellent academic record, and deserved the scholarship as much as any other candidate. The others who got selected were called for an orientation. The contents of the 'orientation' included information such as 'In America, if a girl wants to kiss you, you cannot deny her', as well as dancing lessons. Then they were invited to the American embassy for an evening where wine was openly available and they were expected to show how much they have learnt from the orientation.

And this will not change even if you send professionals from armed forces. You think professionals from armed forces aren't looking for a way out of Pakistan? How about the topmost generals whose kids are studying or living abroad? Don't we all agree these generals are a security risk? Even I being a civilian have run into well connected individuals who try to guage me by bad mouthing Pakistan. This is a key test to see how sincere somebody is to Pakistan. As soon as they find someone willing to work against their own country, they start to groom them. This is exactly what will happen to those professionals you send. You used to be the 'Counter terrorism expert' on the forum. Surely you understand all the implications? Or are you looking for a way out yourself?

Here is a proposal on how to build capacity within Pakistan. First let us identify the root cause of our backwardness. It is under-developed intellectual capacity. Our education system is geared towards memorization and regurgitation. The students realize much of what they are learning won't be used in the industry. There is actually no 'industry' for graduates of electrical, electronic, mechanical, and other types of engineering. Most of them already know they will be doing computer programming. Others will move on to an MBA degree. Many others will end up in a career that has nothing to do with engineering.

The very first step towards progress is the establishment of workplaces where people realize they have to put their academic knowledge to use. Their induction, continuation, and progress in organizational hierarchy depend on actually applying their graduate knowledge, and improving upon it through personal initiative. This means having managers and team leads who demand this attitude. These organizations will have to be numerous enough, and we will need a lead time until our society wakes up and realizes the importance of actually acquiring knowledge during graduate degrees.

What our workplaces expect and demand of us goes a long way in shaping us as a society. This is also true for military organizations such as POF, NESCOM, etc. Don't be fooled by successes such as Shaheen and Raad. These organizations are full of the poorest outputs from Pakistani institutions. I have friends who have worked on simulators. These guys tell horror stories about the code base developed for these simulators. And the sad aspect is that these horror stories reflect poor understanding of the programming language they were using, along with poor understanding of software development itself, and project management. The attitude of project leaders is application of manual, laborious, brute force measures to keep things working. There is no culture of sitting back and learning from own mistakes. No culture of reading journals or news articles and trying to apply best practices. By the way, this information is now pretty old. Hopefully things have changed for the better.

The road towards progress leads through the toiling fields of self-realization, and self-improvement. I am confident that if attitudes change in the leadership, at least our military organizations can embrace a cultural shift.

By the way, I am not opposed to attracting talent from abroad, per proposals from @syed1 @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa) but they cannot comprise the main workforce of Azm. They can bring in special expertise in some areas, but in order to achieve the ambitions of Azm, we need to rise as a nation from within.

+1

 

[Irfan Baloch]

All PAC has to do is offer reasonable pay structures and an environment that doesnt stifle independent thinking and all the Pakistani talent all over the world will flock to it. Actively pursue professionals all over the world. Offer them a good and fulfilling life. A good number will gladly return. This will create future talent too by creating a local ecosystem. No need to send students abroad right now. That can come later if it is needed.

building up knowledge base by sending our students of all grade is just one element of the entire project.and the intention is to have an experienced workforce of builders, technicians, scientists, engineers, designers , teachers, instructors etc. every step or direction has risk, send people that are fresh graduates or already serving in PAC out and they might not return or be recruited by hostile agencies.

keep them in Pakistan and see their talents crushed by insecure and egotistic bureaucrats and executives (uniformed or otherwise) who are hiding their own weaknesses behind sham titles. Selection criteria for Candidates for position in highly specialized fields like applied Physics are asked about 6th Qalma or Dawae Qanoot is just an example from an article I read on Dawn news I will have to dig it up if you want to read that sad story further,

and then there is the Issue of Pakistani Islam.
what Pakistani Islam you say? the Pakistani Islam that can see any academic or profession in the field of inquiry face the charge of Blasphemy . so Independent thinking will have to be tactful and in view of the local sensitivities.
I mean we will already setup a bar very high if all our talented lot must be devout Muslim of correct faith.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

I am to know if any training amd study centre setup yet?
R&D, infrastructure to support local development

and how we will overcome international bans
sending students to seek advance knowledge and see them return with less deserters and steady support from all governments of future

With due respect, just sending students abroad without the necessary groundwork in Pakistan will not give the required benefits. The students will inevitably be disheartened and leave the country regardless of how much we harp on about patriotism.

 

[Mumm-Ra]

The answer lies in stop relying on international education. Science is the same everywhere in the universe, and it is waiting to be discovered. Much of what has been discovered is already available in the form of research papers. And the real truth of the matter is that the mind boggling success of countries like China stands in large part on wholesale buying out of technology, manpower, and where possible, espionage.

In a previous employment, the mentor assigned to me was a graduate from Russia's most premier institute of theoretical physics. He tells me back in the 1950s Britain hired Russian scientists on salaries of 30000K pounds per month for secret research projects. Yes, that is Thirty Thousand pounds per month in the 1950s. He says, as late as a couple of years ago, precincts in China hired Russian scientists on similarly mind boggling salaries so they could continue to get funding from the central government. And my Chinese friends have told me frankly that many of the technologies we see in China came about because entire companies were bought out.

Our problem is slavish mentality. We feel the need for someone else to teach us. The Prime Minister of a nuclear armed country goes around the world, begging people to teach us how to govern. What a joke! In seventy years we could not develop the vision to develop Gawadar through our own initiative. Like a damsel in distress, we need some shining knight to come to our rescue. Well, the fact is, there are no shining knights. By submitting yourself to the pedagogy of others, you enslave yourself. No one is going to teach you so much that you became their masters. You are on your own, and Allah has already given you all you need to excel. All you need to do is end the mental slavery.

These countries had a vision of what they wanted to do and had a plan on how to achieve it. we have never implemented this line of thinking in the majority of our institutions and political thinkers. I remember Musharraf had made a vision 2025. It was touted very much during his reign but after it became worthless. The countries you mentioned all had clear goals and dedicated resources to achieve these goals. Unfortunately, we are very good when it comes to planning things but we do not adhere to our own plans and loose our way.

 

[StormBreaker]

the similarity is in the general design of the 5th gen fighter and you will see elements of existing Russian, Chinese and American 5th gen fighters as well. this is where the similarities end.

as far as cooperation with Turks goes, they showed no interest and turned us down when we originally approached them some time ago to join them in their own project. that response was so absolute and blunt that it sent our leadership back and reflect and then come with our own project. these words are from one of the JF17 project leaders in PAF.

Turks might change their mind but for them we didn't have the finances , technical know how and the infrastructure at a level to their satisfaction to qualify little more than a dead wight to join their project. yes people with quote JF-17 and Mirage rebuilt factory as an achievement of the millennium that needs Galactic recognition but the Turks point of view on these "achievements is not very faltering and worth sharing here.

Turks are very much to the point if you try to be realistic.

Turks although i must say for the time being “batein karoron ki dukan pakoron ki”, they have or have had access to advanced western tech with access to scientific researches as well as integration of Turkish Students into Big companies such as LM/Raytheon but they themselves are no more than any other emerging industry like us, although we definitely are below them on average.

We have achieved some milestones for ourselves which is success for us but what we have done is basic to what the big companies have been doing. Our success ladder started from under the well, while Turkey started directly from the surface, trying to attain sky heights similar to USA/France/UK/China/Russia.

What you quoted about JF-17 Project position holders claiming Turkey’s ignorant attitude towards our wish to join TF-X, i would like to put this up this way with a real life example.

“Jaib mein daulat (could be money or high expertise) hai to sab poochenge, warna bhai bhai ko nai pochta”,

So, We didn’t have enough or consistent finances to offer to Turkey for TFX or some high expertise on par with their usual used-to encounters which are from reputed companies like LM/RR. So people who are used to good or excellent normally ignore average or sub standard (referring to our expertise of that time here), hence why Turkey Ignored us for TFX.

BUT, times have taught them now i guess that future is always uncertain, and those same people from High standard organizations are getting distanced from them, they are left with what they learnt from the F-16 Assembly and production as well as their own mature programs of Missiles, Radars and avionics.

We OTOH, have seen only one major AirCraft program and that is JF-17, which in turn has the most Research and Development work from China during early and mid phases which were actually critical phases for PAF to learn Fighter development. Even if we have some very highly skilled and educated engineers, they would be in numbers no more than 40-60 hypothetically, those who can actually prove to be a worth for AZM Early development cycles which are most that matters in fighter jet development. Give the small number of such skilled manpower, Turkey in turn seemed uninterested to attend to our wishes and proposals, and in a way, it is legit, how can we accommodate such small manpower to AZM as well as TF-X.

One thing i really am satisfied to learn is that, alas, Our Military leadership and PAF to be specific have learned the hard way, they have recognized and highlighted their shortfalls in terms of Local Industry base as well as Lack of Standard Education and Research work to pursue great projects, This in turn have led to Aviation City and AZM. Although i do feel that, despite they know what the problems actually are with local industry capability and how to address them, implementation seems a but slow and we can justify it due to financial constraints as well as full focus in Thunder Program in the shape of Bravo, Block 3 as well as Future Blocks and AZM design phase.

Just compare the Aviation Studies in both countries, we will find Turkey quite reasonable to ignore us given the lack of institutes and focus on this industry, We have just one Aeronautical university in whole of Pakistan, Air University which in turn is i think a subsidiary or a partnership with NUST. Rest, we have PIA Training colleges to produce Mazdoors and Basic engineers. Turkey on the other hand, has many Universities offering quality Studies in this sector with assured internships and jobs in Major companies like ASELSAN, Rocketsan and Havelsan, all directly or indirectly related to the field.

Future is bright if things go the way they are planning them to InshaAllah, need dedication and support from Government and Ministry of Tech and Defence.

@aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa) join in guys, the convo is pretty good here, after a long time, something productive on PDF

I responded to your post that has triggered the discussion in a certain direction. Although the discussion is with Project Azm in mind but my initial post has generated a sub thread within it.
should we keep this all here or filter this all out into a new thread?

this question is to all who responded to my original and follow up posts.

I think, it belongs here, since we don’t have much material or news on AZM, so AZM is a concept for us, an industrial long term plan, so our conversation looks better in this thread.

Or if you want, you can move it to a new thread titled “Building the Local Industry from Scratch, A vision of PAF”

 

[The Eagle]

I responded to your post that has triggered the discussion in a certain direction. Although the discussion is with Project Azm in mind but my initial post has generated a sub thread within it.
should we keep this all here or filter this all out into a new thread?

Sir, as long as it is beneficial and adding much need force to the topic in hand be it directly or indirectly; I see it productive yet attractive shot. You have in-fact triggered the much needed direction as compare to one liners or shooting blanks.

• However, my humble opinion is that if any discussion which is not related to AZM but more of Pakistan Turkey cooperation, may be redirected to other thread. As long as discussion in hand is emphasizing on AZM; I think it may continue here without derailing by all of us.

• Secondly, the talent hunt points, our outreach & any support to bring talent home; deserves a separate thread as you highlighted. I would really want you to start one... that is actually too interesting and will attract only serious members for the whole set of discussion while in the meantime, AZM related stuff be kept here.

Your call Sir.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/want-to-get-involved-in-designing-the-project-azm-fgfa.615602/

the convo is pretty good here, after a long time, something productive on PDF

In my opinion, we can do it in two parts as said above.

AZM related discussion and,
Talent Hunt for Pakistan in related fields as the link says...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/want-to-get-involved-in-designing-the-project-azm-fgfa.615602/

We had this for long here but none paid much attention. So in my opinion, the thread exist and all we need to move few of the posts or Irfan Sir may take initiative.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

Turks are very much to the point if you try to be realistic.

Turks although i must say for the time being “batein karoron ki dukan pakoron ki”, they have or have had access to advanced western tech with access to scientific researches as well as integration of Turkish Students into Big companies such as LM/Raytheon but they themselves are no more than any other emerging industry like us, although we definitely are below them on average.

We have achieved some milestones for ourselves which is success for us but what we have done is basic to what the big companies have been doing. Our success ladder started from under the well, while Turkey started directly from the surface, trying to attain sky heights similar to USA/France/UK/China/Russia.

What you quoted about JF-17 Project position holders claiming Turkey’s ignorant attitude towards our wish to join TF-X, i would like to put this up this way with a real life example.

“Jaib mein daulat (could be money or high expertise) hai to sab poochenge, warna bhai bhai ko nai pochta”,

So, We didn’t have enough or consistent finances to offer to Turkey for TFX or some high expertise on par with their usual used-to encounters which are from reputed companies like LM/RR. So people who are used to good or excellent normally ignore average or sub standard (referring to our expertise of that time here), hence why Turkey Ignored us for TFX.

BUT, times have taught them now i guess that future is always uncertain, and those same people from High standard organizations are getting distanced from them, they are left with what they learnt from the F-16 Assembly and production as well as their own mature programs of Missiles, Radars and avionics.

We OTOH, have seen only one major AirCraft program and that is JF-17, which in turn has the most Research and Development work from China during early and mid phases which were actually critical phases for PAF to learn Fighter development. Even if we have some very highly skilled and educated engineers, they would be in numbers no more than 40-60 hypothetically, those who can actually prove to be a worth for AZM Early development cycles which are most that matters in fighter jet development. Give the small number of such skilled manpower, Turkey in turn seemed uninterested to attend to our wishes and proposals, and in a way, it is legit, how can we accommodate such small manpower to AZM as well as TF-X.

One thing i really am satisfied to learn is that, alas, Our Military leadership and PAF to be specific have learned the hard way, they have recognized and highlighted their shortfalls in terms of Local Industry base as well as Lack of Standard Education and Research work to pursue great projects, This in turn have led to Aviation City and AZM. Although i do feel that, despite they know what the problems actually are with local industry capability and how to address them, implementation seems a but slow and we can justify it due to financial constraints as well as full focus in Thunder Program in the shape of Bravo, Block 3 as well as Future Blocks and AZM design phase.

Just compare the Aviation Studies in both countries, we will find Turkey quite reasonable to ignore us given the lack of institutes and focus on this industry, We have just one Aeronautical university in whole of Pakistan, Air University which in turn is i think a subsidiary or a partnership with NUST. Rest, we have PIA Training colleges to produce Mazdoors and Basic engineers. Turkey on the other hand, has many Universities offering quality Studies in this sector with assured internships and jobs in Major companies like ASELSAN, Rocketsan and Havelsan, all directly or indirectly related to the field.

Future is bright if things go the way they are planning them to InshaAllah, need dedication and support from Government and Ministry of Tech and Defence.

@aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa) join in guys, the convo is pretty good here, after a long time, something productive on PDF


I think, it belongs here, since we don’t have much material or news on AZM, so AZM is a concept for us, an industrial long term plan, so our conversation looks better in this thread.

Or if you want, you can move it to a new thread titled “Building the Local Industry from Scratch, A vision of PAF”

YoungPak,

Delightful read. Good attempt. You can do better than this. Back to drawing board and question your line of thinking. Come back with something of Quality again!

As I have said earlier as well.. 5thGen is not about the fighter but more about the entire Ecosystem. This makes it a bigger challenge than just joing TFX AND J3x.

Essentially we are talking about the entire PakArmedForces Network to be upgraded to 5thGen Level... wherein a stealth/LOF can operate. Should/when we have that upgrade even Thunder Blk3 can provide % performance of 5thGen. And Blk4 even more so... which shall come!

We are not starting from ZERO. Nor we are already in a place to at least design in-house a 5thGen Ecosystem. Of course, finance/RnD and HumanCapital comes into play. We might or might not be that bad...

Fundamental quesiton that we need to ask is: Why does PAF need a 5thGen in the first place? What must be its contours i.e. Ecosystem both in reach and capability/capacity?

Also, it is imperative to understand that it is not about going with Turkish or Chinese stuff ... it is about fundamentally embedding ourselves into one particular Ecosystem...which has enormus implications both for forces and OurStatecraft!

I do understand the feelings of both hues... Fanboyismoz and all-PakArmed-Forces are corrupt/coward/incompetent!

Both, in essence, are painkillers, escapismoz....

Indeed, in a sea of sewer how can there be fragrance of roses... so yes, corruption is endemic... this should say everything that needs to be said.

It is my firm belief that Pakistan in all aspects must follow Directed Evolution Model... which of course, applies to 5thGen Ecosystem as well.

Invention of wheel is neither necessary nor desirable for Pakistan. We need to focus both on Horizontal and Vertical Transformation strategies.

In other words, build from ground up HumanCapital and TechnoCapital and at the sametime leverage what is already out there.. creating a Synthesis which creates a Industerialismo...both in Thinking and Doing.

The very reason I joined PDF was JF.. was a absurdly proud moment to hear/read about PAC making its own jet. Back then we had to suffer so much abuse from the esteemed Indian posters... and now we do have an evolving Ecosystem. Not Zero anymore.

Block3 might not be 100% of our doing but it is also not totally foreign either. We did help our Chinese friends..and those in PRC who matter value it... ignoring the hypernationalist posters is a must. Most of us don't know jack..including yours truly!

This, once again, brings us to the question of having a 5thGen Ecosystem.. Why do we need it? Against whom do we need it? What is our geopolitics in a decade? Think Gawadar..think CPEC...think SEZs and most importantly..think OurBiggestProvince... our EEZ in PakSea... think AfroPakOceanRegion!

So what is the 5thGen Ecosystem we need?

There is so much we need to do to be proficient in all Nine Aspects of War so that we can have Peace..and 5thGen Ecoysystem is needed.

At the moment it appears that we shall go with both TFX and J3x...leveraging components from both allies/friends to create a Hybrid, Pak Specific Stealth Fighter.. however, to create a functioning 5thGen Ecosystem we need to do much more...

There is somework being done in Artifical Intelligence... mostly nascent... this needs to be given full priority across the board for all 6 PakArmedForces... luckily even our political class is talking about it... so there is a tinny start there.

PAC needs to work much more on MALE/HALE UAVs/UACVs... for this we are not that handicapped. Hence, there must be a sense of urgency to at least dare to experiment on different concepts without breaking the bank!

You know very well I am not a techman in defence field... however, I do understand money and policy to an extent... the productivity per FTE in our DefenceProduction needs to go up than it is now.
Frankly, this is where we need to employ much more in ICT/Integerated Production Systems/Robotics and best-practices in management.

I don't say that our people are not doing hardwork... I am implying that we need to do smartwork too. It is the quesiton of FTE utility. Think about per FTE cost in the entire life cycle... and then There is Pension Bomb which none is daring to talk about.

Yes, this is related to our 5thGen Ecosystem..too...since it is not just fighter... sorry, to be boring...but Statecraft is also about counting pennies sometimes!

Now have a look at the Thunder production.. our FTE cost is lower than the Chinese.. which adds up to price/cost of Thunder... if/when we can bring the entire production in PAC this cost shall go down... in other words there is something holding back the transfer of production to PAC... I don't know why that is. Part of the Deal? @airomerix @messiach

Now when you look at this JF production...story... are we going to produce all of 5thGen Fighter at home?
Most likely not... once again this brings us back to embedding of our entire 5thGen Ecosystem to one/two allies/friends... thus making OurStatecraft also beholden to them..both in good or bad way... Leverage goes both ways!

So for now... let us neither be lut gae mur gae ..corrupt/traitors/imcompetent routine NOR over-the-top Fanboyishismoz..

My sense is Pakistan shall go for both the Turkish and the Chinese solutions and shall try to see what else is possible from other reliable sources..and create a Hybrid 5thGen Ecosystem... in which both TFX and J3x will play a role.

We shall not invent the wheel... we shall make it Green!

I do agree with @Irfan Baloch to have a dedicated space for some productive, value-added discussion... would be educational for YoungPaks...perhaps for OldPaks too...

@The Eagle Brother mine, I second your suggestion of integerating Irfan Sahib's and others posts to the thread you mentioned... would require patrolling to keep that one troll /nonsesne free...might be some thread bans!

@StormBreaker now think about all NINE Aspects of War.. Think about 5thGen Ecosystem...come up with a detached analysis of what Pakistan needs to do... to have a fully functional ecosystem with a decade plus!!!???

Mangus

 

[The Eagle]

@The Eagle Brother mine, I second your suggestion of integerating Irfan Sahib's and others posts to the thread you mentioned... would require patrolling to keep that one troll /nonsesne free...might be some thread bans!

I am humbled Sir. There is no disagreement in regard to productive discussion be placed and shall not be scattered all over the Forum which is a great loss for us. AZM related discussion or debate may remain here. @Irfan Baloch Sir knows well which button be pressed . The other thread, may come handy to see what we are looking at & how we can do it or why should be the other way etc etc.

(By the way, everyone check announcement section please).

 

[CriticalThought]

Since I have written extensively to highlight the deficiencies we have in Pakistan, I would like to also highlight our strengths. This is for the benefit of fellow Pakistanis who may become dejected by reading only gloom and doom, whereas the reality is completely different.

PAC has been kind enough to share the level of expertise we already have available in Pakistan with the entire nation. I a program telecast on TV, the people involved in the restoration of our destroyed AEWACS were interviewed. Let me summarize the salient points of this accomplishment. We took an aircraft that had been declared unsalvagable by its manufacturer, and restored it to original specifications which were checked and certified by the manufacturer. Not only this, but we got airworthiness certification from the European aviation regulator for the aircraft. To put this achievement in perspective, some years ago PIA modified the entertainment system on some aircrafts, and these aircrafts were turned back from Europe. Even slight modifications to an aircraft are a huge undertaking, and PAC obtained the certification for a restored aircraft.

As explained in the program, the reason why the aircraft was declared unsalvagable is because aircraft airframe must adhere to stringent tolerances that run into micrometers. The destroyed aircraft had the material of its fuselage contorted out of shape due to both heat and blast damage. The leftover body had undergone so much stress, the manufacturer refused to undertake the task. Had it decided to do so, the expensive labor in Europe meant the resulting cost would likely be unfeasible.

Against these odds, PAC achieved the restoration in a timely, and feasible manner. The key takeaway for AZM discussion is to realize the world class structural engineering talent we have in PAC. All Praise to Allah the Almighty for this Bestowment upon us. And to give credit where credit is due, the person in the program had a PhD degree form the UK.

For the benefit of general readers, a structural engineer takes the external design of an aircraft, and turns it into something that can actually be built. He is responsible for selecting the right materials for various sections of the body so they can withstand the designed stresses, temperatures, and pressures. Just like a building has pillars on which it stands, the aircraft has beams that are responsible for supporting the external body. This is a general overview of many things that a structural engineer accomplishes.

While PAC has an established structural engineering talent, we do not have proven aircraft designers. An aircraft designer is responsible for taking requirements from the project sponsors. As an example, the project sponsor may require a twin engine aircraft that is able to achieve Mach 2.0, have supercruise ability, a ferry range of 4000 Km, a combat radius of 1800 Km without refueling, a T/W ratio of 1.8 with full air to air complement and half internal fuel etc. The aircraft designer shall specialize in aerodynamics, and design an aircraft that fulfills these requirements. The output of an aircraft designer's work would be the kind of 3D model that you keep seeing in fan boy pictures of Azm, or the tail art on the PAF plane that is doing the rounds. Except, his model will be grounded in reality, and based on sound engineering principles. He shall have done extensive simulation analysis and wind tunnel testing so the project team can move forward with reasonable confidence. In order to do his job, the designer needs access to design software, super computing facilities, and modern wind tunnels that can simulate the kind of conditions expected in real operation of the aircraft.

Sine PAC has never created any aircraft from scratch, it has been my opinion on the forum that they should start slow. The first project they should set themselves is a Block 4/Block 5 iteration of Thunder where they open up the design and take the aircraft through all the phases by themselves with minimal to no input from China. In the next step, they should move to a medium weight aircraft, and then finally attempt a conventional twin engine before aspiring for a stealth, twin engine aircraft. This might seem like a lengthy process, but rest assured that creating a twin engine stealth jet IS a lengthy process. With my proposed approach, we will actually get to see and enjoy the fruits of our labor in the form of usable aircraft that can be used to defend the homeland. Otherwise, we will be creating a money pit, into which money is sunk without seeing any outcome, other than superfluous claims of technological advancement in the country.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Thank you for your interest in this vital (IMHO) issue. Perhaps we can discuss this on a dedicated thread.

its done here now

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The answer lies in stop relying on international education. Science is the same everywhere in the universe, and it is waiting to be discovered. Much of what has been discovered is already available in the form of research papers. And the real truth of the matter is that the mind boggling success of countries like China stands in large part on wholesale buying out of technology, manpower, and where possible, espionage.
.

we need people and physical setup to understand and comprehend this vast knowledge and implement it.
if we have such people already who dont need to go abroad to reach the level of 5th Genreation skillset then we can skip that step and these people can get on with the job of setting up the shop and also training the future talent that will replace them.

In a previous employment, the mentor assigned to me was a graduate from Russia's most premier institute of theoretical physics. He tells me back in the 1950s Britain hired Russian scientists on salaries of 30000K pounds per month for secret research projects. Yes, that is Thirty Thousand pounds per month in the 1950s. He says, as late as a couple of years ago, precincts in China hired Russian scientists on similarly mind boggling salaries so they could continue to get funding from the central government. And my Chinese friends have told me frankly that many of the technologies we see in China came about because entire companies were bought out.
.

we can rule out buying out the technology companies because of financial constraints
which leaves us with the option of seeking out Russian, Chinese, Swedish, British, German, French and American point experts individually offering them attractive packages who would actually do some work for us instead of selling our assets and running away like that PIA executive from Germany.

Our problem is slavish mentality. We feel the need for someone else to teach us. The Prime Minister of a nuclear armed country goes around the world, begging people to teach us how to govern. What a joke! In seventy years we could not develop the vision to develop Gawadar through our own initiative. Like a damsel in distress, we need some shining knight to come to our rescue. Well, the fact is, there are no shining knights. By submitting yourself to the pedagogy of others, you enslave yourself. No one is going to teach you so much that you became their masters. You are on your own, and Allah has already given you all you need to excel. All you need to do is end the mental slavery.

seeking out knowledge beyond our borders to places of excellence is not slavish. its a reality, that others have done better than us in work ethic, since and technology. yes we are nuclear but thats where our awesomeness ends. I will leave out politics.
remember that the aim is eventual self reliance and seeking out beyond our borders is pragmatic. everyone has a ceiling and a limit it will be very arrogant to think we know it all. we cant live isolated we will be repainting and re-branding the same fighter over and over again like Iran's F 5.
indeed its our ambition and its us who need to do everything to get going.

you Mentioned Nuclear as a passing remark and that gives an idea.

why not follow the Nuclear project in spirit. we still have most of its founders among us. the scientists, the bureaucrats, the engineers, the diplomats, the spies, the businessmen, the military and civil servants and the politicians that made that ambitious project a reality.

its a question for all.
why not try the same tested road map?

we brought back Dr Qadeer (leave politics of the late aside)
we had Dr Samar as well
we had Late Gulam Ishaq from civilian bureaucracy. the Gulam Ishaq Institute his homage to his contribution to the project. the military and intelligence men
the diplomatic corps the unknown business men and many more.

 

[JamD]

we need people and physical setup to understand and comprehend this vast knowledge and implement it.
if we have such people already who dont need to go abroad to reach the level of 5th Genreation skillset then we can skip that step and these people can get on with the job of setting up the shop and also training the future talent that will replace them.

Unfortunately, we do NOT have these people IN ENOUGH NUMBERS yet. There's two kinds of people right now in PAC:
1. Old-timer PAF people that got their aerospace engineering degrees in the 90s at CAE, maybe spent some years in the US but otherwise spent time on maintenance and overhaul of jets. They are great at their jobs but they are not the kind of people that will give you Azm. Unfortunately, these people tend to think they can (because frankly they don't know any better because of lack of exposure). @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that flying wing childish concept on the other thread was actually PAF engineers who had worked in PAC all their lives. They were making designs on Google Sketchup (I saw with my own eyes). They were convinced they could do what they were planning to do or they were just duping the people at UAS-G (who only import stuff and don't have super technical background). The only thing these babas know about aircraft design is what all aerospace engineers in Pakistan learn in Aero Vehicle Design course (@Goenitz lol). Frankly those courses are out of date by about 4 decades at least.
2. Very young fresh graduates of places like various NUSTs, IST, Air etc. These people might be bright and motivated and a little more in touch with modern stuff but they have been taught by the same babas. And just like the babas all they know about aircraft design is AVD course.

0+0 still equals 0.

So what do we really NEED?

We need mature professionals at PAC. These are Pakistanis all over the world with PhDs and who have worked in international aerospace companies. We have some right now but maybe 10-15 in total lol. These people even in small numbers can have a BIG impact.
1. They will put the R&D at PAC on the right track. I am VERY afraid that the R&D is in the hands of babas I described above right now. I don't doubt their intentions, just their capability.
2. They can teach and mentor new generations of local talents that will be actually USEFUL to PAC instead of just younger versions of the aforementioned babas.

I did my undergrad in Pakistan and I thought I knew a lot but honestly after going through a lot of experience through my PhD I know realize that I literally knew nothing. I would not trust me with from 6 years ago to work on anything serious. This is actually one of my personal drives as well: to impart what I know to young minds in Pakistan. It isn't too hard. What people have said about information availability is true but if there's no one to direct students they can't just discover things on their own. They need to be aimed.

The analogy in bringing in mature professionals or sending students abroad is:
1- Sending students abroad: building entire airforce with SU-30. Expensive and flakey but is one way to do it.
2. Attracting mature professionals: building airforce wih JF-17 and buying a small number of F16, AWACS, DA-20 force multipliers etc. Much more bang for the buck.

On how to attract mature professionals:
No need to drain the foreign reserves dry. They (we) don't want palaces and special treatment. We are Pakistanis and know our auqat (worth).
1. We need job security
2. We need decent pay. I would wager around 3lakh at least for a fresh PhD.
3. Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.
4. Leaders and managers that have vision and knowledge and not babas that are insecure/jealous.


You do all 4 you will literally see PAC do wonders I promise. But this isn't easy and takes time.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unfortunately, we do NOT have these people IN ENOUGH NUMBERS yet. There's two kinds of people right now in PAC:
1. Old-timer PAF people that got their aerospace engineering degrees in the 90s at CAE, maybe spent some years in the US but otherwise spent time on maintenance and overhaul of jets. They are great at their jobs but they are not the kind of people that will give you Azm. Unfortunately, these people tend to think they can (because frankly they don't know any better because of lack of exposure). @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that flying wing childish concept on the other thread was actually PAF engineers who had worked in PAC all their lives. They were making designs on Google Sketchup (I saw with my own eyes). They were convinced they could do what they were planning to do or they were just duping the people at UAS-G (who only import stuff and don't have super technical background). The only thing these babas know about aircraft design is what all aerospace engineers in Pakistan learn in Aero Vehicle Design course (@Goenitz lol). Frankly those courses are out of date by about 4 decades at least.
2. Very young fresh graduates of places like various NUSTs, IST, Air etc. These people might be bright and motivated and a little more in touch with modern stuff but they have been taught by the same babas. And just like the babas all they know about aircraft design is AVD course.

0+0 still equals 0.

So what do we really NEED?

We need mature professionals at PAC. These are Pakistanis all over the world with PhDs and who have worked in international aerospace companies. We have some right now but maybe 10-15 in total lol. These people even in small numbers can have a BIG impact.
1. They will put the R&D at PAC on the right track. I am VERY afraid that the R&D is in the hands of babas I described above right now. I don't doubt their intentions, just their capability.
2. They can teach and mentor new generations of local talents that will be actually USEFUL to PAC instead of just younger versions of the aforementioned babas.

I did my undergrad in Pakistan and I thought I knew a lot but honestly after going through a lot of experience through my PhD I know realize that I literally knew nothing. I would not trust me with from 6 years ago to work on anything serious. This is actually one of my personal drives as well: to impart what I know to young minds in Pakistan. It isn't too hard. What people have said about information availability is true but if there's no one to direct students they can't just discover things on their own. They need to be aimed.

The analogy in bringing in mature professionals or sending students abroad is:
1- Sending students abroad: building entire airforce with SU-30. Expensive and flakey but is one way to do it.
2. Attracting mature professionals: building airforce wih JF-17 and buying a small number of F16, AWACS, DA-20 force multipliers etc. Much more bang for the buck.

On how to attract mature professionals:
No need to drain the foreign reserves dry. They (we) don't want palaces and special treatment. We are Pakistanis and know our auqat (worth).
1. We need job security
2. We need decent pay. I would wager around 3lakh at least for a fresh PhD.
3. Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.
4. Leaders and managers that have vision and knowledge and not babas that are insecure/jealous.


You do all 4 you will literally see PAC do wonders I promise. But this isn't easy and takes time.

100%.

 

[TsAr]

my initial and follow up questions were strictly with the view of this ambitious project in mind.
we can wish all wee want and we need some logistics and approach in achieving in house development
we are leap frogging here. the ambition and intention is appreciable but to have 5th gen grade plane and its subsystems requires the existence of real life people and material in place.

It is a fact that we would not be able to achieve the goals on our own.....collaboration is a must with China and Turkey at least if we want to move forward with project Azm......

 

[Goenitz]

@JamD
The army influence is taking its toll too. I know my batch mates are fed up with their org. Senior technical member are already left. Nearly, every sub dept head is headed by some retired officer. And my friends are still stuck as Manager post. They tell me since last 10 years they are doing more or less same job (lack of fund is also issue that no new thing is coming up).
PhD scholar is at best expert in one thing (like our hero AQ Khan is just centrifuge expert). I asked my professor having 40 publication in car engine structure, thermal and noise analysis, about turbocharger. She said " I just knew its there in car and nothing else". So gathering all expert is hell of a task.
Some people can do marvels but they are expert in these. There are many stories like SAAB AWACS. Like Late Brig (..... for got his name, very nice man though) who restored Cobra main boom after it was hit by anti air craft gun.
The solution is just put FSc students in language courses with one computer language courses. Then send them to Italy, Spain, Korea, Japan, Germany, Sweden etc... Even initially fund them. People like Waqar of scholarship network are doing amazing work and we need more.

Except china and 2 EU universities, all are not letting us study courses related to Aviation so forget that.
as @CriticalThought said that requirement of load, engine, performance, speed etc is what AVD design and there are many hobby lobby people doing it in Pak.

The second solution is just develop your automotive industry (research) and nothing else. Believe me, its legit in EU so we can send students. Also it will pave way for aviation industry. It includes everything metallurgy, engine, control, materials, electronics, ergonomics, aerodynamics, durability, fuels, engines, combustion control, chemsitry...