Presence of Indian forces is harmful to Siachen Glacier: Sartaj Aziz

[Dillinger]

The whole world thought that Siachen was a worthless piece of land. But that was because nobody knew what exactly was there and most of all nobody had the ability to remain there on a continuing basis.
All that has changed now. Both the physical cost and financial cost of a continous presence has reduced and is also affordable. Most of all; the physical presence and domination has other spin-offs.

Not to mention that holding onto the western face of the Saltoro ridge translates to an area encompassing nearly 3000 sq. Km. Continued presence has indeed allowed us to bring down the human and material cost of deployment in the area.

 

[MohitV]

how can u tolerate a muslim twat abusing our religion....

i cant tolerate it tatz why i have reported him.....i dun wanna fall to his level by replying him...n i hope u do the same

 

[MohitV]

wow nobody bans these chickens?

many like him have been banned....he may too ...look dude they do not care if they are banned or not...they all come back...they just want a chance to abuse us..as this is their forum....just try to avoid that...ignore such people

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Not to mention that holding onto the western face of the Saltoro ridge translates to an area encompassing nearly 3000 sq. Km. Continued presence has indeed allowed us to bring down the human and material cost of deployment in the area.

Not continued presence; but technological advancements have reduced the human costs. The other costs have inrceased, but are still affordable.
On the other side they are not at all affordable; hence the "raising of the issue" off and on esp. after Ghiyari.

 

[Storm Force]

Indian army has ordered new Snow & winter gear for 35000 soldiers to operate in high altitude like saichen glacier.

I get the impression the indians feel its indian land NOW and they have plans to keep it

Army troops get clothing to brave minus 50 degree Celcius temperature - India - DNA

 

[Dillinger]

Not continued presence; but technological advancements have reduced the human costs. The other costs have inrceased, but are still affordable.
On the other side they are not at all affordable; hence the "raising of the issue" off and on esp. after Ghiyari.

The continued presence led to the incentive to develop said tech too, no? From pressure chambers to personnel gear and the like. Well we can always relieve them of the burden, I wouldn't mind pitching a flag on Bilafond.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

The continued presence led to the incentive to develop said tech too, no? From pressure chambers to personnel gear and the like. Well we can always relieve them of the burden, I wouldn't mind pitching a flag on Bilafond.

Not incentive; but dire necessity to innovate and invest.

 

[Dillinger]

Not incentive; but dire necessity to innovate and invest.

True, it was either that or leave the place given the cruelties inflicted by nature.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Presence of Indian forces is harmful to Siachen Glacier: Sartaj Aziz
By Web Desk
Published: December 4, 2013
Presence of Indian forces on Siachen Glacier is harmful to the environment according to Advisor to the Prime Minister on National Security and Foreign Affairs Sartaj Aziz,Radio Pakistan reported on Wednesday.

Pakistan is facing a water shortage and Indian forces are damaging one of the largest sources of water to Pakistan on a regular basis‚ Aziz said.

Presence of Indian forces on Siachen is a big issue and should be resolved as soon as possible, Aziz stated insisting that India should pull out its troops from the glacier.

He further added that disposal of daily use items by thousands of Indian soldiers is detrimental to the glacier.

India and Pakistan are working on resolving their water issues, Aziz stated. The two countries are doing this through multiple channels including Pakistan-India composite dialogue and Indus Water Commission.

Aziz also said that water should be properly used in Pakistan‚ it should be conserved and new water reservoirs should be built. He also said ‘Senate has recently formed a committee to deliberate various dimensions of water related issues and suggest its recommendations.’

Both Indian and Pakistani forces should quit the glaciar.

It is $tupid $tupid $tupid $tupid$tupid $tupid$tupid $tupid$tupid $tupid$tupid $tupid$tupid $tupid

Did I say it is $tupid $tupid



The only thing we should do is share the joint mountaineering license.

Anyone should be able to buy the license either in Pakistan or India through a centralized reservation system maintained and operated by a big regional company like infosys.

But no


We both must remain $tupid $tupid


sadly.

The continued presence led to the incentive to develop said tech too, no? From pressure chambers to personnel gear and the like. Well we can always relieve them of the burden, I wouldn't mind pitching a flag on Bilafond.

We don't invent a forking thing. We buy stuff from the West.

If inventions were the focus,

We would be sending mountaineers and not killing each other.

Peace

 

[hari sud]

It is the Pakistanis who are destroying Siachin glacier. They are present in large numbers on the lower hieghts trying to gain control of the glacier from the Indians who are on the top of the glacier but far fewer than Pakistanis.

So the arithmetic tell Sartaz Aziz that who is destroying the glacier.

Let the Pakistanis leave, and two third of the environmental problems are over.

I believe that if the Pakistanis leave, Indians will leave as a matter of gratitude.

But the Indians do not want to happen that Pakistanis sneak back quitely as they did in Kargil, hence authenticate each other's position.

The above is a small issue on the surface. But it will be a major blow the Pakistani Army's prestige.

 

[Slayer786]

Obviously Indians are gloating here as they have occupied Siachen heights fearing that Pakistan would one day had done that. So it was preemptive. But it does not give india any edge or advantage. But still Pakistan wants them to leave and because of this reason india is p.issing them off by not. If the roles were reverse than Pakistan would have done the same.
Many Indian experts and army officials have put pressure on their govt not to withdraw from the heights. Because indian govt had realized that it was useless to stay there, but they are afraid of the political fallout. They wanted concessions from Pakistan and some of shich Pakistan was prepared to give such as 'Most favored Nation' status.So no one will dare do that. In the immediate future, it will remain the same.
Pakistanis will keep crying over it and indians will keep gloating over it. Now when we lost 140 soldiers in Siachen last year. It was a sad moment for us, while indians couldnt be more happier. They are believing that 140 of enemy soldiers have dies which is awesome, but do not realize that they too have lost many soldiers of their own. But their mentalitiy is, as long as more enemy soldiers die, than we are winning. And it would have been the same if we were in the same position. We would be gloating when we read indian soldiers died in Siachen heights.. In other words we enjoy each others miseries, but what about the soldiers dying and their families. Do the loved ones of the dead soldiers have the same gloating feelings towards the enemy soldiers deaths? Or do they understand the pain and loss of these enemy soldiers families because they have been through the same thing?

I believe, it does not matter who lost more soldiers there but I feel that it is a waste of life and no one is winning the war. It is pointless. the heights are of no strategic value. No one would be able to attack each other from those heights as only few soldeirs can be stationed there. It is only a defensive position. It will be easier to deploy soldiers at lower levels, where it is easy for both armies to defend against any incursions and reduced harsh weather conditions will save the soldiers lives. Now as Pakistan has occupied lower heights there the weather is less harsh than the Indian positions and so they are able to cope a little better then the indians. SO more Indian soldiers die there due to harsh weather then Pakistani soldiers.


Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen
Amir Mir Monday, April 09, 2012

The Siachen dispute has resulted in thousands of casualties from both sides, mainly because of adverse climatic conditions and harsh terrain. This is despite the fact that leaders in Islamabad and New Delhi keep acknowledging the human and economic costs of the conflict. According to careful estimates by defence analysts, Pakistan spends approximately Rs15 million a day to maintain three battalions at the Siachen Glacier, which makes Rs450 million a month and Rs5.4 billion a year. On the other hand, the deployment of seven battalions at the Glacier costs India Rs50 million a day, Rs1.5 billion a month and Rs30 billion a year.



On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties. According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties. At present, there are approximately 7,000 Indian Army troops and about 4,000 Pakistani troops stationed at the Siachen Glacier.


The two neighbours maintain a permanent military presence at a height of over 20,000 feet, which has led to more deaths due to the extreme weather conditions than to each other's military might. In fact, human endurance is severely tested at altitudes above 26,000 feet because no human being can acclimatise himself to such harsh weather conditions. Pakistan had been in control of the Siachen death zone till 1984 when India sneakily occupied it.

At 5,472 meters above sea level, the Siachen Glacier is located in the Karakorum mountain region, which has some of the highest peaks in the world. The northern mountains of the glacier mark the watershed between the Central Asia and the Indian Subcontinent. Bereft of vegetation, the glacier happens to be one of the world's most inhospitable regions where temperature hovers around minus 40 degree Centigrade. If bare skin touches metal, it binds as if with glue and can be torn off. In winters, strong winds from Central Asia can further bring down the temperature to minus 50 degrees. The glacier receives 6-7 meters of the annual total of 10 meters of snow in winter alone. Snowstorms can reach speeds up to 150 knots (nearly 300 kilometres per hour).

The Indian Army controls Siachen heights, holding on to the tactical advantage of high ground. But the Pakistan Army is slightly better off since it occupies smaller portion of the glacier, and its road-head is only 20 km away from the farthest post. The Indian troops on the other hand are stationed about 80 km away from the road-head and have to be maintained entirely by air, which is not only cost prohibitive but also risky because of the adverse weather conditions most of the times. Interestingly, the Pakistani soldiers cannot get up to the glacier and the Indian forces cannot come down. Soldiers brought down to base camp often suffer hearing, eyesight and memory loss because of prolonged use of oxygen masks. Many lose eyes, hands or feet to frostbite.



While Pakistani troops stationed on the glacier are confronted with a less forbidding terrain as compared to their Indian adversaries, their military presence forces the Indian troops to retain their troops on the more elevated and hazardous mountain passes, resulting in higher attrition rates because of the dangerous altitude, weather and terrain.

Source:The News International - Copyright @ 2010-2012

 

[FaujHistorian]

It is the Pakistanis who are destroying Siachin glacier. They are present in large numbers on the lower hieghts trying to gain control of the glacier from the Indians who are on the top of the glacier but far fewer than Pakistanis.

So the arithmetic tell Sartaz Aziz that who is destroying the glacier..

you are putting INdian mathematicians to shame with your swinger bro!

 

[ares]

Over 8,000 Indo-Pak soldiers killed in Siachen
Amir Mir Monday, April 09, 2012

The Siachen dispute has resulted in thousands of casualties from both sides, mainly because of adverse climatic conditions and harsh terrain. This is despite the fact that leaders in Islamabad and New Delhi keep acknowledging the human and economic costs of the conflict. According to careful estimates by defence analysts, Pakistan spends approximately Rs15 million a day to maintain three battalions at the Siachen Glacier, which makes Rs450 million a month and Rs5.4 billion a year. On the other hand, the deployment of seven battalions at the Glacier costs India Rs50 million a day, Rs1.5 billion a month and Rs30 billion a year.



On an average, defence experts say, one Pakistani soldier is killed every third day on the Siachen Glacier, showing approximately 100 casualties every year on an average. Similarly, one Indian soldier is killed every other day on the Siachen Glacier, at an annual average of 180 casualties. According to unofficial figures, over 3,000 Pakistani soldiers have lost their lives on the bloody Siachen Glacier between April 1984 and April 2012 as against over 5,000 Indian casualties. At present, there are approximately 7,000 Indian Army troops and about 4,000 Pakistani troops stationed at the Siachen Glacier.


The two neighbours maintain a permanent military presence at a height of over 20,000 feet, which has led to more deaths due to the extreme weather conditions than to each other's military might. In fact, human endurance is severely tested at altitudes above 26,000 feet because no human being can acclimatise himself to such harsh weather conditions. Pakistan had been in control of the Siachen death zone till 1984 when India sneakily occupied it.

At 5,472 meters above sea level, the Siachen Glacier is located in the Karakorum mountain region, which has some of the highest peaks in the world. The northern mountains of the glacier mark the watershed between the Central Asia and the Indian Subcontinent. Bereft of vegetation, the glacier happens to be one of the world's most inhospitable regions where temperature hovers around minus 40 degree Centigrade. If bare skin touches metal, it binds as if with glue and can be torn off. In winters, strong winds from Central Asia can further bring down the temperature to minus 50 degrees. The glacier receives 6-7 meters of the annual total of 10 meters of snow in winter alone. Snowstorms can reach speeds up to 150 knots (nearly 300 kilometres per hour).

The Indian Army controls Siachen heights, holding on to the tactical advantage of high ground. But the Pakistan Army is slightly better off since it occupies smaller portion of the glacier, and its road-head is only 20 km away from the farthest post. The Indian troops on the other hand are stationed about 80 km away from the road-head and have to be maintained entirely by air, which is not only cost prohibitive but also risky because of the adverse weather conditions most of the times. Interestingly, the Pakistani soldiers cannot get up to the glacier and the Indian forces cannot come down. Soldiers brought down to base camp often suffer hearing, eyesight and memory loss because of prolonged use of oxygen masks. Many lose eyes, hands or feet to frostbite.



While Pakistani troops stationed on the glacier are confronted with a less forbidding terrain as compared to their Indian adversaries, their military presence forces the Indian troops to retain their troops on the more elevated and hazardous mountain passes, resulting in higher attrition rates because of the dangerous altitude, weather and terrain.

Source:The News International - Copyright @ 2010-2012

For the first time ever, the government has announced the number of Indian soldiers who have laid down their lives in the Siachen sector, ever since the Indian Army made its first headlong rush to secure that strategic area in the summer of 1984.

Defence Minister A K Antony, in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha, on Monday stated, “A total of 846 armed forces personnel have made supreme sacrifices on the Siachen glaciers since 1984.”

This includes deaths due to the extreme climate and terrain conditions, which causes more casualties in that sector than battle. Hypoxia, high altitude pulmonary edema (or “altitude sickness” in mountaineering lexicon), avalanches and crevasses have taken a heavy toll on Indian lives. Early in this high-altitude war, New Delhi decided not to differentiate between those who died in combat and those who were swept to their deaths in an avalanche.

“(Environment-related) death during the course of duty on Siachen glaciers is treated as a ‘battle casualty’ and enhanced compensation is paid to the next of the kin,” Antony told the Lok Sabha on Monday.

“Operation Meghdoot”, the military nickname for operations in Siachen, began on April 13, 1984, when the Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopters airlifted a platoon of hardy hillmen from the Kumaon Regiment onto theSaltoro Ridge, which overlooks the Siachen Glacier from the west. Building up quickly, more Indian troops moved onto the three main passes on the Saltoro Ridge — Bilafond La; Sia La; and Gyong La.

According to Lt Gen (Retd) V R Raghavan, a respected authority on Siachen, the Pakistan Army had planned a similar operation to occupy the Saltoro Ridge that summer. But they arrived on the Saltoro a month after the Indians, only to find most of the key heights on the ridge already occupied.

For years, Pakistan has mounted bloody, but eventually fruitless, attacks to get atop the Saltoro Ridge. But the Indian army still controls all of Siachen, its tributary glaciers, and all the key passes and heights of the Saltoro Ridge. Shut out even from a view of the Siachen Glacier, Pakistani troops suffer a severe tactical disadvantage all along the 109-kilometre-long Actual Ground Position Line, as the frontline in that sector is called.

“Forced to fight uphill, Pakistan is believed to have suffered the lion’s share of battle casualties on the Saltoro. Indian troops, who hold higher positions with more difficult access, were estimated to have initially suffered more environment-related deaths, before better equipment, procedures and training brought casualties down to a trickle since the mid-1990s. On April 7 this year, an avalanche that slammed into Pakistani headquarters at Gyari swept away more than 130 soldiers. The next day, Pakistan’s President Zardari asked Prime MinisterManmohan Singh to cooperate in demilitarising Siachen.

New Delhi, however, is sticking to its demand for authentication of ground positions on the Saltoro Ridge before any demilitarisation could be continued. The Indian Army says without authentication on signed map sheets, its hard-won high ground on the Saltoro Ridge could be occupied by Pakistan with impunity. As a result, the 13th round of Siachen talks between the two countries’ defence secretaries was adjourned without any headway towards settling the Siachen dispute. No dates have yet been fixed for the next round of discussions.

846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984 | Business Standard

 

[Slayer786]

For the first time ever, the government has announced the number of Indian soldiers who have laid down their lives in the Siachen sector, ever since the Indian Army made its first headlong rush to secure that strategic area in the summer of 1984.

Defence Minister A K Antony, in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha, on Monday stated, “A total of 846 armed forces personnel have made supreme sacrifices on the Siachen glaciers since 1984.”

This includes deaths due to the extreme climate and terrain conditions, which causes more casualties in that sector than battle. Hypoxia, high altitude pulmonary edema (or “altitude sickness” in mountaineering lexicon), avalanches and crevasses have taken a heavy toll on Indian lives. Early in this high-altitude war, New Delhi decided not to differentiate between those who died in combat and those who were swept to their deaths in an avalanche.

“(Environment-related) death during the course of duty on Siachen glaciers is treated as a ‘battle casualty’ and enhanced compensation is paid to the next of the kin,” Antony told the Lok Sabha on Monday.

“Operation Meghdoot”, the military nickname for operations in Siachen, began on April 13, 1984, when the Indian Air Force (IAF) helicopters airlifted a platoon of hardy hillmen from the Kumaon Regiment onto theSaltoro Ridge, which overlooks the Siachen Glacier from the west. Building up quickly, more Indian troops moved onto the three main passes on the Saltoro Ridge — Bilafond La; Sia La; and Gyong La.

According to Lt Gen (Retd) V R Raghavan, a respected authority on Siachen, the Pakistan Army had planned a similar operation to occupy the Saltoro Ridge that summer. But they arrived on the Saltoro a month after the Indians, only to find most of the key heights on the ridge already occupied.

For years, Pakistan has mounted bloody, but eventually fruitless, attacks to get atop the Saltoro Ridge. But the Indian army still controls all of Siachen, its tributary glaciers, and all the key passes and heights of the Saltoro Ridge. Shut out even from a view of the Siachen Glacier, Pakistani troops suffer a severe tactical disadvantage all along the 109-kilometre-long Actual Ground Position Line, as the frontline in that sector is called.

“Forced to fight uphill, Pakistan is believed to have suffered the lion’s share of battle casualties on the Saltoro. Indian troops, who hold higher positions with more difficult access, were estimated to have initially suffered more environment-related deaths, before better equipment, procedures and training brought casualties down to a trickle since the mid-1990s. On April 7 this year, an avalanche that slammed into Pakistani headquarters at Gyari swept away more than 130 soldiers. The next day, Pakistan’s President Zardari asked Prime MinisterManmohan Singh to cooperate in demilitarising Siachen.

New Delhi, however, is sticking to its demand for authentication of ground positions on the Saltoro Ridge before any demilitarisation could be continued. The Indian Army says without authentication on signed map sheets, its hard-won high ground on the Saltoro Ridge could be occupied by Pakistan with impunity. As a result, the 13th round of Siachen talks between the two countries’ defence secretaries was adjourned without any headway towards settling the Siachen dispute. No dates have yet been fixed for the next round of discussions.

846 Indian soldiers have died in Siachen since 1984 | Business Standard

Yes ofcourse, the govt of the two countries will tell the truth. Only someone not related to the govt will have the courage to write the truth. But you go ahead and believe the govt version as it is more soothing to the heart. 846 sounds so much less than 5000 deaths. So it is alright. Everyone can live with that.
I am sure the dead soldiers families must be wondering if the sacrifice was worth it when the soldier died of the harsh weather conditions and not enemy bullets. But then it is not our families, not our relatives who died, so for us yes they did a supreme sacrifice and died for our country. Thats the important part after all.

 

[nForce]

He would never have said this should the Pakistanis have reached there first in 84

This comment pretty much concludes the thread.