Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[paritosh]

Because we were not directly involved in the conflict in literal sense. Had we done that, there was a high degree of a chance that we may end up in an aerial conflict with the IAF therefore widening the conflict.

Though imo we should have supported.

your air-force wasnt prepared for an all out face-off against us back then you had almost non-existent BVR capability...

 

[araz]

your air-force wasnt prepared for an all out face-off against us back then you had almost non-existent BVR capability...

PAritosh
BVR is not as reliable as you make it out to be. Sure we are at a disadvantage, but then when have we not been at a disadvantage in our history with regards to airforce?
I really think it is the spectre of a limited warfare going out of hand which has kept war away from the Indo- Pak arena, not the disparity in numbers and capabilities. The more the disparity, the less the threshold for a nuclear exchange.
I hope you understand.
Araz

 

[Hasnain2009]

Now the time has changed. Its not 1965-1971 era. Indian Air Force has Su 30MK and Mirage 2000H. We should not forget their performance in Kargil conflict. Whatever the factors were behind that but the fact is that, we did not used our Air power. Furthermore they are going for more 126 modern, sophisticated, state of the art fighter jets. We must stick to JF-17 and J-10B. We lack BVR missels and till now we don't have SD-10, Aim 120 C-5 in service. Furthermore there are no sign of contracts by PAF to buy MBDA-MICA, A&R-Darter series missels till now. Although we went through series of upgrades in form of Rose I/II/III for Mirage Avionics & cockpit (radar: P2800-Grifo-M) renamed Grifo-7 and also for F-7P and F-7PG fighter. This radar has a look-down shot-down range of 17-20 nm (20-23 mi, 32-37 km) & with this radar in present scenario our Air force would face problems. we must reevaluate our needs. Although our pilots are skillful, very well trained and better than indians and lot of things are also for PAF are in pipeline. we should try to get hands on Thomson-CSF RDY (RDY-2 Radar Doppler Multi-target) radar, SNECMA M53-P2, MBDA-MICA, A&R-Darter series missels for JF-17 and should start with transfer of technology under license production in Kamra. We need Quality and Quantitiy both for PAF to form a reasonable future force.

Pakistan makes biggest ever AMRAAM buy - Jane's Missiles and Rockets

 

[Zob]

OLD NEWS about the BVR's bro Pakistan is getting BVRs as well as ANTI RAdiation missiles from Brazil...and we developing t-darter....besides all this SD10 we will get it when we need it...!

 

[batmannow]

Hi Sohailbutt,

Blowing up an enemy camp on top of a mountain like kargil is more difficult than blowing one up at sea level. Take a wild guess why!!!

MastanKhan;sir
but if enemy jets can pound our positions even in the nights, why cant our jets pound them back?
kargil is more difficult than blowing one up at sea level.
yes you are perfectly right sir, but why PAF been hold back thn, ohh the planners were thinking about a limited war? its the biggest error in thier minds, they should be punished for that, NLI jawans defended the country , with termmendous bravery, which cant be found after 1965 war.

after kargil war, me & some of my friends , were discussing the role of PAF, & we were astonished to find that they were hold back.

it would be a different ball game once , PAF allowed to pick up action in KARGIL WAR, & i can asure you of 1000% succsess at that time, indian infantry was stuck , they can fight us , cause of our higher grounds, but it was IAF, s late swing , which did the trick for them.
if PAF was been put in to intercept , those sorties INDIAN army never had any chances to even think about our positions.
i guss, indians got the perfect combination , of quality & quantity in weapons and in planing, at the time of KARGIL WAR!

 

[qsaark]

after kargil war, me & some of my friends , were discussing the role of PAF, & we were astonished to find that they were hold back.

it would be a different ball game once , PAF allowed to pick up action in KARGIL WAR

My understanding is, PAF was in no position to engage the IAF. There have been reports where IAF had locked on PAF F-16s using their BVR and the F-16s were forced to break.

 

[blain2]

My understanding is, PAF was in no position to engage the IAF. There have been reports where IAF had locked on PAF F-16s using their BVR and the F-16s were forced to break.

Both sides locked on. It was not as one sided as the Indian sources claim it to be. Locking on went on against IAF Mirage 2000s. However locking on does not mean much if nothing actually came out of it. PAF did have the disadvantage of not fielding BVRAAM. However the fact that IAF were flying interdiction missions against ground positions so close to the LoC, they were well within the WVR WEZ of the PAF fighters.

 

[omerhhh]

From what i know is that the if there is a war between India and pak the paf's job will be to stop indian war plane from performing strikes on pakistani soil the PAF is not supposed to attack the Indians it became more like a defensive force after they tried the preemptive strikes in 1971 with those resuls it was clear that attacking was out of their reach and it still is that is why you only see fighters and ground support planes in the PAF.

 

[batmannow]

Both sides locked on. It was not as one sided as the Indian sources claim it to be. Locking on went on against IAF Mirage 2000s. However locking on does not mean much if nothing actually came out of it. PAF did have the disadvantage of not fielding BVRAAM. However the fact that IAF were flying interdiction missions against ground positions so close to the LoC, they were well within the WVR WEZ of the PAF fighters.

dearest blain2; sir
However the fact that IAF were flying interdiction missions against ground positions so close to the LoC, they were well within the WVR WEZ of the PAF fighters

thanks for opening , the point so closly!
frist 2 -3 days were infact , the hell on the mountains for indians, thier infantry was paralized , by our higher positions, but we lost them because of no air shield(cover), IAF was affraid , when they got 2 down , but after good planing they came back , with vengence?
just think about NLI , & its capabilty , NLI did what was unforgettable, unthinkable for both enemy , & for foes!

KARGILL war was a perfect example, that in war , quality & quantity both are important.

 

[Zob]

see the issue was that firstly even though both countries were able to lock on to each other the problem was that if u did get to shoot down the enemy the problem was of debris....PAF was back to the 80s era where we had strict rules of engagement on our western borders....PAF litreally had to watch from the bench IAF come and pound the high ground....and without the BVR we litreally had to get up close to lock on and try and do something. but i guess the Army learnt something that without air cover u can never win...the problem is Germany in WW2 learnt it the hard way and so did we this time round....having said that 3 battalions holding onto 3 regiments of Indian Army is a feat in itself.

 

[Contrarian]

You guys do realize that IAF played a relatively small part in recapturing Kargil? It was basically the artillary that was doing the job. IAF lobbed some PGM's, but mostly it was a morale booster. It was the Bofors which did the major job. IAF also had a lot of difficulty in adjusting to the different bombing ballistics at that altitude. They never thought they'd have to bomb at those altitudes, their previous practices were by and large interdiction and air dominance.

Thankfully, lessons were learnt. IAF now practices high altitude bombing, blah blah blah. The training now done at those altitudes has been considerable enhanced in different profiles.

 

[batmannow]

You guys do realize that IAF played a relatively small part in recapturing Kargil? It was basically the artillary that was doing the job. IAF lobbed some PGM's, but mostly it was a morale booster. It was the Bofors which did the major job. IAF also had a lot of difficulty in adjusting to the different bombing ballistics at that altitude. They never thought they'd have to bomb at those altitudes, their previous practices were by and large interdiction and air dominance.

Thankfully, lessons were learnt. IAF now practices high altitude bombing, blah blah blah. The training now done at those altitudes has been considerable enhanced in different profiles.

malaymishra123,dear! sir

You guys do realize that IAF played a relatively small part in recapturing Kargil? It was basically the artillary that was doing the job. IAF lobbed some PGM's, but mostly it was a morale booster. It was the Bofors which did the major job.

i guss, its your pure imigination, or a raw guss, that you think that "Bofors" & artillary did the job, how you know where were our positions, when we were holding higher grounds, its very difficult to really lock our positions from your artillary?

IAF did really great job, they were tracking our key positions, then making them a target.
you can have good idea about "your artillary"& "your ground troops" if you can find any contacts from your '70 Infantry Brigade" or "9 Mahar Regiment" what really happeed in "Point 5090-metres in Dras" ?

also, what happened to indian troops in "Point 5300-metres and 5329-metres in the Batalik sector", the most heavly bombed points by your artillary! we kept them under our control, till cease fire.
dear, friend!
i guss, if you think wisly that its 10 times more ezy & only possible to target , high attitudes , only by air& cetnly not by your artillary , way below down , on the ground.
IAF did the most important job , to find our positions corectlly.
also it was IAF abllity, that they were able to detect & bombed us in the nights.
at that time,"your artillary"& "your ground troops" they were just aiming their ammo upwards, on the mountains without any idea & we were drinking hot tea!
surlly, i accept with hounnor that it was your high command , which used your quality of weapons, with your quantity of troops , in KARGILL!

BUT PLZ,JUST REMEMBER THAT , IT WAS JUST 5 UNITS OF PAKARMY, WHO YOU GUYS WERE FIGHTING , WITH 4 DIVISIONS OF IA?

 

[osamaziadxb]

i think quantity ..bcz what r our aviation engineers doing...the should keep them fit or make them ready for flying..

 

[Zob]

thank u batman u said what i wanted 2...but let me add Mishra do u have any idea how many sorties IAF flew...and if i recall PAF was not comfortable with the fact that IAF got to enjoy all the SHOWTIME....while ur army didn't have any idea which rock we were on.please go check out the number of Sorties the IAF flew...and stop giving ur BOFORS UNDUE CREDIT...

 

[zombie:-)]

guys bofors deserves the credit it is receiving

role of IAF

A complete air superiority ...what else is an air force primary duty
B reconnaissance and surveillance of enemy positions
C targeting of enemy supply routes ..so that guys on the mountain could be cut off completely

there was not much actual bombing on the conquered hill tops because IAF primarily did not have much in its inventory then for the role of precise bombing PAWEWAY kits were then brought and used and that too in small numbers primarily because we didnt have much expertise and at lest a decent operational history of using them .......

army was using bofors primarily coz
low cost
long range
shoot and scoot ability

rocket launch platforms were not used that much coz enemy could easily detect the firing position due to the rocket exhaust glow and could counter attack but you cant visually identify the bofors shells coming at you ..