Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[adm_havemercy]

no, I don't think you have any idea how aircrafts fly or how TVC works. the Su-30 needs TVC to keep up with small agile fighters like the F-16 or even the JF-17. although, it's still going to have problems tailing the aircraft due to its "ginormous" weight, let's just say it can keep up for argument's sake and for your sake.

second, TVC is totally useless on any other aircraft in existence today, except the F/A-22. let me give you something that you can absorb easily, tell me if the US has tested TVC on its F-16's before the larger blocks entered the picture, and has tested TVC on the F-15, why is it that they haven't incorporated the same technology on the newer platforms or even the F-35? it's because they only introduced TVC when they matured the technology on the F/A-22, which can better handle the capability due to its superior flight control systems.

sir i think even you dont know much about tvc . if tvc was of no use why would usa incorporate it in f-22 . the thing is that tvc can be very effective in close quarter combats and dodging misiles .
the reason why there is no tvc in f-35 is that they dont need it in it .
f-22 is a dogffighter whereas f-35 is more of a strike aircraft . so no need of it .
also about the size . if you attach missiles and bombs onto your jf-17 it will be as easily detected by a radar as a sukhoi .
go and read some reports of the australian defence analysist which says that sukhois are even better that f-18 ( ill provide u d link as soon as i find it)

on jf-17 . its a very good aircraft for its price but still no match for su-30 mki .

 

[adm_havemercy]

and regarding weight mki has better t/w ratio than jf-17

 

[pakpower]

Hi I think SU-30MKI is only a extra Hipe from indians as they usually do in all of their products marketing, it may be potent jet but not that much to be awarded with that much hipe which is already being created for that product.

Well to be honest very well said Mr. MZUBAIR PAF will get equal with IAF in 2010 with the inductions of J-10Bx and Newer Blocks of F-16s.

But Still I think PAF should keep on looking for some better platforms in future if our economy permits and I hope our economy will keep better in the Future. InshaAllah.

 

[adm_havemercy]

i also think the same but it is definitely the best fighter in asia right now .

 

[adm_havemercy]

xpecting a rply frm asad ul islam !

 

[s90]

I know SU-30 superior than JF but wont JF's smallness give it advantage?

But when PAF will get J-10 its really a competitor of SU and also cheaper

 

[MZUBAIR]

I agree with u adm_havemercy that Su-30 is some how batter then JF-17 but u shld accept this truth that JF-17 can counter ur all other fighters Mirage, MiG-29 ,Jaguar, MiG-21 & ofcourse compete with MiG-27.
Besides that Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation & Pakistan Aeronautical Complex are putting their best to take it for 4.5th generation like.
1) use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
2) Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system.
3) New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft.
4) Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features
5) Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry.
6) New Radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7, and the French Thomson-CSF RC400, a variant of the RDY-2 radar, along with the MBDA MICA short/medium range air-to-air missile.


After all addition of these above features, I asure u that JF-17 wouldn't be easy for SU-30.

 

[MZUBAIR]

xpecting a rply frm asad ul islam !

I agree with u adm_havemercy that Su-30 is some how batter then JF-17 but u shld accept this truth that JF-17 can counter ur all other fighters Mirage, MiG-29 ,Jaguar, MiG-21 & ofcourse compete with MiG-27.
Besides that Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation & Pakistan Aeronautical Complex are putting their best to take it for 4.5th generation like.
1) use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
2) Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system.
3) New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft.
4) Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features
5) Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry.
6) New Radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7, and the French Thomson-CSF RC400, a variant of the RDY-2 radar, along with the MBDA MICA short/medium range air-to-air missile.


After all addition of these above features, I asure u that JF-17 wouldn't be easy for SU-30.

 

[s90]

Thrust-to-weight ratios These figures tell something?

JF-17 = 0.95
SU-30MKI = 1.07
J-10 = 0.98

 

[Muradk]

and regarding weight mki has better t/w ratio than jf-17

No **** I didn't know that at all thanks buddy.

 

[Hasnain2009]

I know SU-30 superior than JF but wont JF's smallness give it advantage?

But when PAF will get J-10 its really a competitor of SU and also cheaper

Cost of Su-30MKI is is less then $40mn and cost of J-10a is $40mn++, and we will buy J-10b, which will add $10-20mn more to its cost!

 

[s90]

Cost of Su-30MKI is is less then $40mn and cost of J-10a is $40mn++, and we will buy J-10b, which will add $10-20mn more to its cost!

We still dont know for sure about its price especially J-10's made for Pakistan

 

[saiko]

Errrr ever factored in some of the factors that make a good WVR aircraft? because it seems you haven't.

Let me explain some of those factors.....HMS and off boresight missiles would negate TVC on the MKI. Furure models of JF-17 may even incorporate TVC

Aircraft size plays a huge factor in WVR and in this case it is clear who would win in that contest.

60 degress off boresight doesn't help if you never get your target into your
frontal aspect after the merge.

If you want to talk merge scenarios, we can do that. Barring pilot error or a major pilot skill imbalance the JF-17 is unlikely to get to the opportunity to fire its missiles except prior to the merge, short of bleeding almost all of its energy for a one-time, risky snap shot. If it fails to get a kill in that scenario it will die and the Su-30MKI won't even need to expend a missile to do it.

And that's not even considering TVC. The crucial factor is the decisive T/W ratio advantage of the Su-30MKI.

EDIT: I do need to point out, though it should go without saying, that WVR is where pilot skill really comes into play and this is not to say the JF-17 needs to avoid WVR combat with the IAFs Su-30MKIs if the IAFs pilots are a qualitive level below the PAF. But I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole, not only because I don't know the actual answer to that but it would probably start a riot here.

no, I don't think you have any idea how aircrafts fly or how TVC works. the Su-30 needs TVC to keep up with small agile fighters like the F-16 or even the JF-17. although, it's still going to have problems tailing the aircraft due to its "ginormous" weight, let's just say it can keep up for argument's sake and for your sake.

second, TVC is totally useless on any other aircraft in existence today, except the F/A-22. let me give you something that you can absorb easily, tell me if the US has tested TVC on its F-16's before the larger blocks entered the picture, and has tested TVC on the F-15, why is it that they haven't incorporated the same technology on the newer platforms or even the F-35? it's because they only introduced TVC when they matured the technology on the F/A-22, which can better handle the capability due to its superior flight control systems.

You missed the point of what I was getting at. The SU-30MKI doesn't even need to use TVC to beat the JF-17.

I'm assuming the rest of your post refers to the F-16 MATV program? If you are, you are just plain wrong. The lead flight test engineer for the F-16 MATV wrote an article about the programme in the mid 90s (published widely in the military community - I remember because I became interested in military aviation at about that time) and basically contradicted your entire post about TVC and wrote extensively about their simulated dogfights and the effect TVC had on them.

That's to say, the technology in the 1990s was already dramatically improving the F-16's combat performance in real, proven terms - from the cockpit. As to why it was cancelled - the F-16 MATV programme was cancelled in 1997. The JSF development contract was signed 16 November 1996. You do the math.

Besides - straight up turn performance stopped being the decisive factor in WVR air combat in 1942.

Try being a little less condescending in your posts, especially when you're wrong.

 

[MZUBAIR]

I dont know wt u want to say?

 

[adm_havemercy]

No **** I didn't know that at all thanks buddy.

wel thats good i helped u in some way .