Possible steps to counter the rising threat from IAF ?

[MastanKhan]

but sir why will they allow us to come WVR, they are more in numbers, we will be confronting multiple threats and in this case how can a F7 or the JF17 beat the long rand of the SU30z??

Hi,

Thankyou for your post. Exactly for that reason I posted my comments about what I read about some designers of F 22 resenting putting a cannon on the plane---they will try their best to shoot and scoot---.

You are right---about the SU 30 and F 18 launching their missiles from a distance and then moving away---but my comment was based upon what if the instance came that the two were within WVR.

Zob,

Thanks for your video.

 

[araz]

If my reading into the matter is right PAF still suffers from the embargo of the eighties and ninties. Given the lack of platforms available with our meagre resources, we opted for some quantity, in upgrading our mirages, and F7 pg. We seem to have a combination of the 2 at the moment with allying a work horse like thunder with high tech planes like J10, and F16s. But again we are changing tack by modernizing thunders so that the qualitative advantage remains..
As a generalization i would say PAF has opted for quality , being unable to compete quantitatively. However, givewn the ground realities it has not shied away from going down the other route when the necessity arose.
Araz

 

[sweetboy]

:what

I am very happy to hear that we're buying lots of J10..I think 100+ 4.5th Generation Jets (J10's and F-16's) and 250+ 4th Generation Jets (JF'17) are more then enough to deny Air Superiority to India considering the fact that our pilots are far better trained then Indians and in future we might buy more hightech jets (Gripen NG or Maybe Rafale ) if our economic condition improve!

but how much time it will be taken?

 

[zavis2003]

atleast dont think JAGUARS AND MIG 27s
as threats coz they cant stay against the 4th gen fighters
so only migs plus SUs plus mirages give the tough time

 

[qsaark]

How Much Can Quality Compensate for Quantity?

Excerpts from: Air combat: Past, present and future.
By John Stillion and Scott Perdue
August 2008
Unclassified/FOUO/Sensitive

 

[Munir]

How Much Can Quality Compensate for Quantity?

Excerpts from: Air combat: Past, present and future.
By John Stillion and Scott Perdue
August 2008
Unclassified/FOUO/Sensitive

The Germans had better eqiupment but getting raw material to produce them was the major problem. And yes, Hitler is not the best leader cause using the M262 as a bomber is totally stupid. The US produced a lot of low tech tanks and won the battles in Belgium...

 

[satishkumarcsc]

atleast dont think JAGUARS AND MIG 27s
as threats coz they cant stay against the 4th gen fighters
so only migs plus SUs plus mirages give the tough time

Jaguar is a DPSA(deep penetration strike aircraft) and MiG 27 is a CAS so they can never stand against the 4th gen aircraft. Their role is not A2A you have to take care of their escorts flying high and giving them cover. That will be done by the MiG 29s and the MiG 21s and rarely by the Mirages.

 

[zombie:-)]

Jaguar is a DPSA(deep penetration strike aircraft) and MiG 27 is a CAS so they can never stand against the 4th gen aircraft. Their role is not A2A you have to take care of their escorts flying high and giving them cover. That will be done by the MiG 29s and the MiG 21s and rarely by the Mirages.

in comes the multi role aircrafts

 

[saiko]

The mix right now is right I think. Some high quality fighters for critical missiones and crucial area denial.

Fill out the rest of the fleet with cost-effective JF-17s and use them as a BVR platform. Let the IAF spend money on trying to build a fleet full of well-rounded fighters. Every dollar spent on performance in an area PAF pilots simply avoid (eg PAF pilots simply avoid WVR in the JF-17) is a relative dollar of closure in the funding gap.

IMO the Pakistan navy should focus primarily on submarines in quality. And with regard to ground forces it's going to have to be a compromise since there is a lot of border to defend, but terrain, defensive entrenchment and good doctrine can produce a stalemate in a war with India. And I think realistically a stalemate is what the Pakistani military would be aiming for. Any offensive thrust into Indian territory would be made with a view to offset Indian gains elsewhere.

 

[hj786]

Fill out the rest of the fleet with cost-effective JF-17s and use them as a BVR platform. Let the IAF spend money on trying to build a fleet full of well-rounded fighters. Every dollar spent on performance in an area PAF pilots simply avoid (eg PAF pilots simply avoid WVR in the JF-17) is a relative dollar of closure in the funding gap.

You keep saying that JF-17 pilots might have to avoid WVR combat. But do you know that JF is equipped with a Helmet Mounted Sight/Display system that can be used for targeting aircraft with the latest High Off-BoreSight (HOBS) missiles such as A-darter?

Surely you also know that JF has an aerodynamic configuration that is very very similar to those of F-16, F-20 and F-18, all of which are lauded for their manoeuvrability (especially the F-16)?

How can you keep repeating that JF-17 is not a potent dog-fighter if you do not know what you are talking about, sir?

 

[saiko]

You keep saying that JF-17 pilots might have to avoid WVR combat. But do you know that JF is equipped with a Helmet Mounted Sight/Display system that can be used for targeting aircraft with the latest High Off-BoreSight (HOBS) missiles such as A-darter?

Surely you also know that JF has an aerodynamic configuration that is very very similar to those of F-16, F-20 and F-18, all of which are lauded for their manoeuvrability (especially the F-16)?

How can you keep repeating that JF-17 is not a potent dog-fighter if you do not know what you are talking about, sir?

You're just not being objective. It's like suggesting the J-10 can fight on equal terms with the F-16 block 50/52, which I've seen many Chinese forum posters suggest on other boards. That's just rubbish.

If the JF-17 comes up against a Su-30MKI in WVR it is going to get eaten alive. I'm not even going to touch a LCA vs JF-17 comparison because there are way too many people in that LCA thread that are clearly trying to make the JF-17 out to be way more than it really is.

The JF-17, for what it costs and what it can potentially do, is a great aircraft. But don't kid yourself. It's still a poor man's multirole fighter and a cheap BVR platform with limited growth options. But it fills a needed role in the PAF and can fill it effectively at a great price.

It is not a first-tier, frontline fighter in the context of what India is bringing to the table.

 

[Keysersoze]

You're just not being objective. It's like suggesting the J-10 can fight on equal terms with the F-16 block 50/52, which I've seen many Chinese forum posters suggest on other boards. That's just rubbish.

If the JF-17 comes up against a Su-30MKI in WVR it is going to get eaten alive. I'm not even going to touch a LCA vs JF-17 comparison because there are way too many people in that LCA thread that are clearly trying to make the JF-17 out to be way more than it really is.

The JF-17, for what it costs and what it can potentially do, is a great aircraft. But don't kid yourself. It's still a poor man's multirole fighter and a cheap BVR platform with limited growth options. But it fills a needed role in the PAF and can fill it effectively at a great price.

It is not a first-tier, frontline fighter in the context of what India is bringing to the table.

Errrr ever factored in some of the factors that make a good WVR aircraft? because it seems you haven't.

Let me explain some of those factors.....HMS and off boresight missiles would negate TVC on the MKI. Furure models of JF-17 may even incorporate TVC

Aircraft size plays a huge factor in WVR and in this case it is clear who would win in that contest.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

If the JF-17 comes up against a Su-30MKI in WVR it is going to get eaten alive. I'm not even going to touch a LCA vs JF-17 comparison because there are way too many people in that LCA thread that are clearly trying to make the JF-17 out to be way more than it really is.

no, I don't think you have any idea how aircrafts fly or how TVC works. the Su-30 needs TVC to keep up with small agile fighters like the F-16 or even the JF-17. although, it's still going to have problems tailing the aircraft due to its "ginormous" weight, let's just say it can keep up for argument's sake and for your sake.

second, TVC is totally useless on any other aircraft in existence today, except the F/A-22. let me give you something that you can absorb easily, tell me if the US has tested TVC on its F-16's before the larger blocks entered the picture, and has tested TVC on the F-15, why is it that they haven't incorporated the same technology on the newer platforms or even the F-35? it's because they only introduced TVC when they matured the technology on the F/A-22, which can better handle the capability due to its superior flight control systems.

It's still a poor man's multirole fighter and a cheap BVR platform

ironically, that's all it needs to kick india's a...

 

[MZUBAIR]

Quality Vs Quanity for PAF against IAF.
Lets take some surrent states and states till 2010.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI Flanker-H Current 120 acquire 130 more
HAL Tejas Current 0 20 are on order
Mirage fleet Current 51
MiG-29 Fulcrum Current 62
SEPECAT Jaguar Current 140
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-27 Current 120
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Current 260

Total around Current 753

India is going to buy 126 MRCF in 2010/2015
Su - 30 Mki 120 in 2010/2015

In 2010 50 Su - 30 Mki will make total 50 + 753 = 803

________________________________________________________________


JF-17 Currrnt 18 Total of 250 expected
Chengdu J-10B Current 0 36 ordered, to be delivered in 2009 expected
F-7 current 192
A-5 Current 41
F-16 Current 44 24 will be recieved in 2009 / 2010
Mirage III Current 121
Mirage 5 Current 60

Total Current 476

In 2010 (till March) PAF will recieve Total 30 JF-17, 24 F-16 & 36 J-10B

In 2010 Total 90 + 476 = 566

 

[MZUBAIR]

Looking up states.........
PAF Quantity is not 1:3 as the current total is 753 / 476
I can say its 2:3 almost

In 2010 = 803/566

Quantity not seems to worry as India has a large geo area then Pakistans

Now if u look technology India has little edge beacuse of Su-30 which Pakistan seems take over in 2010 with the addition of F-16's, JF-17s and J-10B's


So, I feel both will be same in 2010 in quantity & quality