Policeman martyred, dozens injured in Islamabad clashes; Army called

[blain2]

What are your views about IHC judge comments today? He criticized army and generals for their role or interference in this issue.

I see both sides with valid arguments and equally at fault. I am not even going to cover the protestors because one cannot even reason with the mob.

IHC was right to call out Army's role as inappropriate. The Army has to do what the government of the day says it should. No ifs and buts! If it wanted to counsel the government, it should have done so in private instead of making its suggestion public. It makes Pakistan look like a banana republic. This is something that the Army's higher command has to be mindful of. By negating the IHC judgement and the Government's request, the Army made both look weak. A bad move any which way one looks at it. Army's move had a domino affect, leading the government to accept the resignation of their own minister, which in turn gives the message that anyone with any grip can hold the government hostage by blocking roads. The worst kind of message to be sent to a country that has flirted with anarchy at a devastating cost in the recent past (post Lal Masjid etc.)

On the other hand, the IHC and the GoP should also realize that asking the Army to take on civilians on the streets of Pakistan is a disaster in the making. This came at a time when the national security elements are dealing with the fall out from the Hafiz Saeed release and also when the formulation of anti-terrorism pact in KSA is requiring all the attention of the PM and the CoAS in navigating Pakistan's interests. Now if asked to fire on unarmed civilians (baton charge and tear gas only works so much), the vast majority of the officers won't do it and it would then pose serious questions around who is in charge. The police, FC and Rangers should have jointly dealt with it without the Army being requisitioned under article 245. Even better, if the government wanted to do this right, they could have had their minister resign earlier or taken action when the crowd was manageable. Inaction despite having lessons from the LM inaction fiasco is a damning state of affairs for the current government.

Overall, a horrendously stupid situation made all the worse by all three quarters in this order: Govt. of the day, the Army and then the Judiciary.

 

[VCheng]

Overall, a horrendously stupid situation made all the worse by all three quarters in this order: Govt. of the day, the Army and then the Judiciary.

As I said before, with its religious fanaticism, failed governance and military insubordination on full display, how can Pakistan expect to be treated as a responsible nuclear power without fixing them? The repercussions of this situation will be maximized by Pakistan's enemies as best as possible internationally. Surely this should have been handled better, but was not.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I think these Maulvis are more progressive than liberals in this country. They called for resignation, not public lynching. People across the world forced their leaders resignation after Panama scandal except for Pakistan.

The liberals are mad the maulvis actually used democratic method to dispose a politician. Ironic isn't it?

 

[TheDarkKnight]

As I said before, with its religious fanaticism, failed governance and military insubordination on full display, how can Pakistan expect to be treated as a responsible nuclear power without fixing them? The repercussions of this situation will be maximized by Pakistan's enemies as best as possible internationally. Surely this should have been handled better, but was not.

Agree that this wont go well internationally, but this is a minor glich compared to the images of 111 brigade climbing the gates of PTV and Prime minister house. About Pakistans nuclear power: it never was and never will be accepted, especially by the western world, as a legitimate and deserving nuclear power no matter how democratic Pakistan becomes. The main diplomatic pressure on nukes will come if the country is unstable and is precieved to be overrun by terrorists or is in chaos. This perception would have intensified internationally only if the protests prolonged and became violent. Armys minor intervention to end this though may look bad from a democratic and constitutional point of view, but certainly not from stability point of view which is the key.

 

[Shane]

I think these Maulvis are more progressive than liberals in this country. They called for resignation, not public lynching. People across the world forced their leaders resignation after Panama scandal except for Pakistan.

The liberals are mad the maulvis actually used democratic method to dispose a politician. Ironic isn't it?

Although a bit twisted but your argument carries weight, lol, specially when the Government itself is responsible for facilitating the dharna to begin with.

 

[blain2]

Although a bit twisted but your argument carries weight, lol, specially when the Government itself is responsible for facilitating the dharna to begin with.

I agree, he has a point. Although one has to wonder how disruptive to common people the dharna was. If that becomes very problematic for the residents then this right to demonstrate cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely.

 

[VCheng]

Agree that this wont go well internationally, but this is a minor glich compared to the images of 111 brigade climbing the gates of PTV and Prime minister house. About Pakistans nuclear power: it never was and never will be accepted, especially by the western world, as a legitimate and deserving nuclear power no matter how democratic Pakistan becomes. The main diplomatic pressure on nukes will come if the country is unstable and is precieved to be overrun by terrorists or is in chaos. This perception would have intensified internationally only if the protests prolonged and became violent. Armys minor intervention to end this though may look bad from a democratic and constitutional point of view, but certainly not from stability point of view which is the key.

People still haven't forgotten Sec. Clinton's "sixty miles from Islamabad" speech when Taliban took over Swat, sir. And what was seen on screens across the world was not far off from portraying the country as "unstable and .... overrun by terrorists .... in chaos".

 

[Shane]

In other news... A faction of the dharna Molvis have refused to end its own dharna in Lahore until its own demands are met...this group is probably the first islamabad dharna group that ended after negotiations a few days before Molvi Khadim Hussains dharna started...as posted about earlier:

This was second dharna on same issue by Molvis. First dharna just finished few days before this one. Astonishing for those who didn't catch the first dharna is that the first one was by another faction of same group and they were sitting on Jinnah Avenue itself...They were negotiated out of it but the Government just dis nothing on the demands and sat waiting for the next, lol

 

[lastofthepatriots]

I agree, he has a point. Although one has to wonder how disruptive to common people the dharna was. If that becomes very problematic for the residents then this right to demonstrate cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely.

Protesting is in fashion. It's like an annual event now. There should be a designated area for protests in Islamabad from now on. Loss of life and property damage is regretful and should be avoided.

 

[Enigma_]

Protesting is in fashion. It's like an annual event now. There should be a designated area for protests in Islamabad from now on. Loss of life and property damage is regretful and should be avoided.

Indeed there should be.

 

[Shane]

I agree, he has a point. Although one has to wonder how disruptive to common people the dharna was. If that becomes very problematic for the residents then this right to demonstrate cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely.

I get Exactly what you mean. This was a fourth schedule listed Molvi too, he should have been stopped in Lahore. Plz watch Zaeem Qadri in Hamid Mir show, spokesman for Punjab gov't. admittedly states his close relationship with Molvi Khadim Hussain and that he was in contact with him through out the whole dharna and its final negotiations.

PMLN conveniently plays on both sides of the fence, politics of contradictions is their hallmark but this was pmln vs pmln.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

People still haven't forgotten Clinton's "sixty miles from Islamabad" speech when Taliban took over Swat, sir. And what was seen on screens across the world was not far off from portraying the country as "unstable and .... overrun by terrorists .... in chaos".

And as I had implied, the unstable preception would have gotten worse if the protests continued or there was bloodshed by army like in lal masjid case.
While we can argue about army’s constitutional limits to resolve the issue, the question is why our political system was not able to handle and resolve this? And most important question of all “Aey ganjaiyan nai ai Panga hi kyun litta si?”

 

[WaLeEdK2]

I see both sides with valid arguments and equally at fault. I am not even going to cover the protestors because one cannot even reason with the mob.

IHC was right to call out Army's role as inappropriate. The Army has to do what the government of the day says it should. No ifs and buts! If it wanted to counsel the government, it should have done so in private instead of making its suggestion public. It makes Pakistan look like a banana republic. This is something that the Army's higher command has to be mindful of. By negating the IHC judgement and the Government's request, the Army made both look weak. A bad move any which way one looks at it. Army's move had a domino affect, leading the government to accept the resignation of their own minister, which in turn gives the message that anyone with any grip can hold the government hostage by blocking roads. The worst kind of message to be sent to a country that has flirted with anarchy at a devastating cost in the recent past (post Lal Masjid etc.)

On the other hand, the IHC and the GoP should also realize that asking the Army to take on civilians on the streets of Pakistan is a disaster in the making. This came at a time when the national security elements are dealing with the fall out from the Hafiz Saeed release and also when the formulation of anti-terrorism pact in KSA is requiring all the attention of the PM and the CoAS in navigating Pakistan's interests. Now if asked to fire on unarmed civilians (baton charge and tear gas only works so much), the vast majority of the officers won't do it and it would then pose serious questions around who is in charge. The police, FC and Rangers should have jointly dealt with it without the Army being requisitioned under article 245. Even better, if the government wanted to do this right, they could have had their minister resign earlier or taken action when the crowd was manageable. Inaction despite having lessons from the LM inaction fiasco is a damning state of affairs for the current government.

Overall, a horrendously stupid situation made all the worse by all three quarters in this order: Govt. of the day, the Army and then the Judiciary.

The army cares more about the nations stability than it does of democracy. If they did indeed follow the governments orders and confront the protestors that's not exactly a stellar image as well. Soldiers running around with batons beating the common man, shooting tear gas or in the worst case scenario shooting with bullets.

In all cases the route the army chose was probably the best. There was no great or good option in this event. They intervened but only a little. They didn't send troops to climb the PTV building or go to Raiwand.

These dharnas weren't by accident as @Shane pointed out. It was politically driven.

 

[Verve]

Quite frankly Imran qadri and Imran showed many a way to block Islamabad by doing dharna.

I was in ISB during dharna and I was traveling all over without any issues. Don't know what 'block Islamabad' that was!

And in recent history, the trend setter is PMLN. Attack on the SC and President House, if you can recall those!

 

[Shane]

Breaking news: Another smoking gun!

Zahid Hamid stated in his resignation that he has repeatedly presented his resignation to party and PM but why it was not accepted before as it could have ended the issue peacefully a long time ago.