Pervez Hoodbhoy says Jinnah was wrong and 1947 partition was a tragedy

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Self deleted.

 

[true]

It has worked perfectly well for us. We got separated from a country where Muslims and minorities have always been ill treated as second class citizens.

Spare us your lies. We all know how peaceful extremist Hindus are towards Indian Muslims and minorities in general. Attacking Muslim places of worship, hacking them in broad daylight, killing them for consuming beef meat, raping them everywhere is hardly a peaceful place.

this is what happens when all you read is propaganda news all your life .

i doubt you have even met a hindu in real life , we have million gods and belif system completely diverse in its own way , adding one god named Allah makes no difference .look at the stats muslim population in India grew by 24% While Hindus grew by 16%. Now look at the near extent Hindu population in Pakistan.

We had a Muslim president , we had a Sikh prime minister now we have a lower class Hindu prime minister our vice president is a Muslim , your attempts to banter India amuses me .

 

[Dalit]

this is what happens when all you read is propaganda news all your life .

i doubt you have even met a hindu in real life , we have million gods and belif system completely diverse in its own way , adding one god named Allah makes no difference .look at the stats muslim population in India grew by 24% While Hindus grew by 16%. Now look at the near extent Hindu population in Pakistan.

We had a Muslim president , we had a Sikh prime minister now we have a lower class Hindu prime minister our vice president is a Muslim , your attempts to banter India amuses me .

So, the entire world media including your own is lying about the intolerance in India? Rape doesn't occur? Mosques and churches aren't vandalized and set ablaze? Muslims aren't killed by mobs who are accused of slaughtering and consuming cow meat? Nuns aren't raped in front of bishops? Dalits aren't made to clean the toilets of higher caste Indians? Dalit females aren't raped because they are considered inferior? These are all lies and such intolerance doesn't exist against minorities in India...

You can try to fool the people, but it isn't going to work I'm afraid. Intolerance has always existed in India, but in Modi's India intolerance is at its absolute peak.

Even Bollywood actors have to fear for their lives for speaking their mind regarding intolerant India, but it's all propaganda news according to you... The "tolerant" India that you're talking about is only meant for high caste Indians. Minorities have no place in Modi's India.

 

[true]

Let me point out that despite us Pashtuns being accused of being religious conservatives etc etc the Sikhs living among us were not harmed and their religious buildings were not damaged.

And Pashtuns were the first ethnic group whose members while protesting peacefully had hundreds of their members killed by the 'Great Leader' of the new state where all Muslims were supposedly equal and safe i.e. the Babrra massacre

Babrra massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know whether partition was or wasn't a good idea. I can say however that religious conflict was brought to Pakistan by the migrants from India, who while safely sitting in Karachi and Lahore loudly proclaim their love of 'secoo-la-rizm' and 'sosha-lizm' but have with the greatest of cynicism used Pashtun youth to fight their wars on the basis of 'defending the Muslims'.

That whole statement of yours is full of 'mistakes' - the partition of the colony of British India was not 'racism' and views supporting it are not 'racist' because the demarcations were not made on the basis of 'race'. Partition was done to provide a millions of people with control over their own political future.

the idea behind it is racist . If a ahole comes into a theater and says he won't sit next to a Hindu/Muslim then that prick is a racist , especially if he went far enough to demand a entire hall for his religious group .

All that said above becomes insignificant and invalid when you take in to the fact that it is not Pakistan that is the nation which posses 40% of the world's severely malnourished and poor:

Shocker: India constitutes 40 percent of world's malnourished children - Firstpost

Ya because 18% of the world population lives in India. It doesn't show percentile .

 

[Spring Onion]

those Hindu extremists are a minority. The country is run by secular law.

Actually this Hindu extremist minority is holding your "secular" government hostage to an extent that your government is unable to stop them from terrorizing people

I can happily criticize any ideology here, and the law keeps me safe.

YES Indeed my dear Indeed

Rationalist thinkers under attack in India
BY SUDHA RAMACHANDRAN on OCTOBER 5, 2015 in ASIA TIMES NEWS & FEATURES, SOUTH ASIA

Rationalists in India are under fire from Hindu right wing organizations. A little over a month ago, noted litterateur and rationalist, Malleshappa M Kalburgi was shot dead at point-blank range at his house in the southern Indian state of Karnataka. Kalburgi had several run-ins with Hindu groups over his remarks on idol worship.]


Youth Congress members protest against the killing of M M Kalburgi

A few days later, another rationalist in Karnataka, K S Bhagwan received a letter threatening him with death for his “derogatory” remarks on the Bhagawad Gita. In February this year, Govind Pansare, a progressive public intellectual, was shot dead in Kolhapur in Maharashtra. Two years ago, Narendra Dabholkar was gunned down in Pune. A doctor-turned-activist, Dabholkar campaigned in rural Maharashtra against religious superstitions and black magic.

Violence targeting rationalists, progressive artists and intellectuals who challenge the narrow conservatism of fundamentalists or criticize their bigotry has grown in India over the last couple of decades, especially in recent years. The rising influence of Hindutva (literally Hinduness), an ideology that believes that India should exclusively follow the laws and principles of the majority Hindu faith, since the early 1990s and the decisive victory of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in general elections last year appear to have given a fillip to such violence.

Activists of the Vishva Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal, which are constituents of the Sangh Parivar, a family of Hindu organizations of which the BJP is a part, have been brazen in their celebration of the killing of rationalists.

“Mock Hinduism and die a dog’s death,” Bhuvith Shetty, a Bajrang Dal leader tweeted following Kalburgi’s killing. The Sri Ram Sene, a right-wing goon squad, has threatened to “chop off” Bhagwan’s legs if he continues to criticize Hinduism and to “cut off the tongue” of writers who insult Hindu gods.

Such threats are issued with impunity with no action taken against the terror being unleashed. Indeed, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who otherwise never misses an opportunity to put out his views on twitter, has been silent on the killing of rationalists and the threats being issued by outfits that are ideological kin of his party.

It is not just Indians who are caught in the crosshairs of the Hindu right. Noted American Indologist Wendy Doniger incurred the wrath of Hindu groups for her book, The Hindus: An Alternative History, for its focus on “sex and eroticism.” Under pressure, the book’s publisher Penguin-India withdrew the book and destroyed all its remaining copies.

Clearly, the Hindutva outfits have little understanding of the essence of Hinduism, its liberal schools of philosophy that allowed for atheism/ agnosticism or its historical openness to multiple interpretations of its sacred texts. Hinduism is comfortable with artistic depictions of nudity and sexuality as evident in temple sculptures. Yet these outfits took umbrage with Maqbool Fida Husain’s depiction of Hindu goddesses in the nude.

Interestingly, Husain’s paintings were not controversial in the 1970s or 1980s when they were completed. It was only with the rise of Hindutva in the 1990s that his paintings were vandalized. Husain’s paintings, like Doniger’s research or Dabholkar’s activism, are useful for the Hindutva groups to stir anger among the masses and mobilize them.

The attacks on rationalists and progressive writers and artists reflect the expanding influence of Hindutva and also undermine India’s democracy. Freedom of expression is central to the health of a democracy and this is under severe threat in India today.

There are parallels between the killing of rationalists in India and of atheist/ secular bloggers in Bangladesh. In both countries, radical outfits that claim to be acting in defense of religious faiths and beliefs are unleashing violence and terror.

However, unlike in Bangladesh, where the Ansarullah Bangla Team, which masterminded the killing of several secular bloggers, was banned under the country’s anti-terrorism laws, in India, organizations that are behind the killing of rationalists run free.

Investigations into the murders of the rationalists have moved at a snail’s pace in India and it is only a fortnight ago that police arrested an activist of the Sanatan Sanstha, a Hindutva outfit, in connection with Pansare’s killing. They are probing a link between his murder and that of Dhabolkar and Kalburgi.

The Sanatan Sanstha claims on its website to be a spiritual organization. Its actions indicate that it is a terrorist organization; it was involved in bomb attacks a few years ago.

There are growing calls to ban this organization. Such calls were ignored by the Congress Party when it was in power. The BJP government is even less likely to ban the outfit.

After all, the Sanatan Sanstha is an ideological ally. Besides, declaring the Sanatan Sanstha a terrorist organization will require the BJP government to put its fraternal outfits as well as itself under the scanner
Rationalist thinkers under attack in India – Asia Times

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the idea behind it is racist . If a ahole comes into a theater and says he won't sit next to a Hindu/Muslim then that prick is a racist , especially if he went far enough to demand a entire hall for his religious group .

Identities tend to be composed of multiple factors and the primacy of those factors varies from individual to individual. For me, for example, religion is pretty much at the bottom of the list of factors that makes up my identity. While you might not want to admit it, religion tends to play a very strong role in the identity of many people and Jinnah was correct in advocating for a separate State based on a geographical AND religious homogeneity. He was also correct in his assessment that such a State was necessary to ensure that those belonging to a particular demographic group would not be politically disenfranchised and ridden over roughshod by those belonging to the majority demographic group.

Jinnah's ideals and positions had nothing wrong with them - the fault lies with policies and measures put in place to create the 2 new States of India and Pakistan and the behavior of members of certain demographic groups in stoking the flames of hatred and violence.

Did Jinnah want religious violence and chaos that ensued? Of course not. The fact that said violence took place is the fault of the governing entities that possessed the resources at the time to ensure security and stability and failed to do so.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

the idea behind it is racist . If a ahole comes into a theater and says he won't sit next to a Hindu/Muslim then that prick is a racist , especially if he went far enough to demand a entire hall for his religious group .




Ya because 18% of the world population lives in India. It doesn't show percentile .

You make up 18% of the world's population yet constitute 40% of the world's severely malnourished and poor. That is a horrifically diabolically shocking statistic. When SOME indians criticize, bad-mouth and insult Pakistan, they should carefully consider the above statistic. Until the above is fully resolved, you can never be in a position to criticize the Pakistani state or it's people. The above disproves the myth of a fully developed nation that is an economic superpower.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Kudos to Hoodboy for saying what almost all reasonably objective Pakistanis know in their hearts but are too afraid to express. Everyone can try to fix the unfixable all they want but Pakistan's intrinsic structure in terms of its positioning and type of society will not allow it to escape the kind of continuous violence and upheavals it has had to suffer almost throughout its existence. It is an exercise in futility given the fundamental discordance between modernity that its people need and the primitivity that its cause for existence provides.

Ofcourse Jinnah did a huge favor to India and its Hindus especially by splitting away Pakistan. There is no question of India allowing back that problem state ofcourse.

Sane people such as Hoodboy unfortunately are caught in the wrong side of the border!

 

[true]

You make up 18% of the world's population yet constitute 40% of the world's severely malnourished and poor. That is a horrifically diabolically shocking statistic. When SOME indians criticize, bad-mouth and insult Pakistan, they should carefully consider the above statistic. Until the above is fully resolved, you can never be in a position to criticize the Pakistani state or it's people. The above disproves the myth of a fully developed nation that is an economic superpower.

It makes perfect sense , let's say 99% Afghanistan children are malnourished , it won't be a factor because their population is in few millions . Now lets say 5% USA children are malnourished , usa will still have a higher ratio In raw numbers . That doesn't mean USA is in a worse state than Afghanistan .

Now lets look at the poverty percentile
India has 12.4% of its population below the poverty line , that's equal to the population of Pakistan ,aka the 6th most populous country , In raw numbers India will always have a a greater numerical count . That doesn't represent the state of a country .

 

[aakalim]

This is the problem with an ideological state. An ideology is nothing but an idea that a majority of the people of that area or state adhere to. But the problem is that ideas can be disagreed with based on your own thinking or understanding of the situation.

So what we end up doing in an ideological state is to questions the loyalty of people based on their ideas, instead of their actual contributions to the state.

Here is a question: consider a Pakistani who has lived in Pakistan all his life, is patriotic in the sense that he love Pakistan and its people and want Pakistan to do good. But, based on his understanding and knowledge, he does not believe in the Two Nation Theory. He also kind of agree with Pervaiz Hoodboy on the matter that Quaid e Azam, or anybody else for that matter, did not have a particular clear idea of what kind of state Pakistan should be. He can also understand the arguments people make in support of idea that Partition was a mistake. I mean it it absolutely possible for someone to read and analyze the history in a rational and unbiased way, and come to the conclusion that things would have been better off without the partition. I am not saying that this is necessarily the right conclusion, but it is entirely possible for someone to come to that conclusion in hindsight.

Now the question is : should he be considered unpatriotic, an enemy of the state or worse, a traitor, just because he believes in the above?

 

[JohnyD]

Partition was obviously not a good thing happened for the rise of a great India but the way it happened was even far more paining....Partition happened on the line of religion, but India allowed to stay equal no of Muslims after partition and Pak kept claiming Kashmir....For me, if none of the Muslim had stayed back, Kashmir should rightfully have gone to Pak... but that is not the reality... So, who gained from the partition, Pakistan only earned one thing and that is eternal enemy...they have no agenda than India...India still in a better position but I think the deal of partition was not negotiated considering after effects! Jinah and Nehru both were opportunistic who gained the most after partition!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

This guy is turning into a total azzhole... He should stick with teaching nuclear physics insteads of becoming a historian or a social scientist... Dumbass goes over board..

millions of people who voted in favour of Pakistan disagree with his opinion.
the assassination of Gandhi by Hindu extremist cant be explained by his logic