Persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan contradicts the teachings of Islam

[Indus Pakistan]

@haviZsultan I have gotten to know this Ahmadi, who is a doctor here in UK. He spends enormous amount of energy in elevating the name of Pakistan. He is incredibly patriotic. If every Pakistan made as much positive impact in UK as this guy has done in UK, Pakistan would be bracketed as one of the top countries in the world. The brand 'Pakistan' would carry enormous positive image in the world. Yet, I when I met him and he told me what was happening to his district last week (Chakwal) I felt disgusted, uttterly sickened.

So don't fvuckin tell me about some American Muslim woman who was refused a can of Diet Coke and that was made into a major incident when right in middle of Pakistan - area that has provided generations of soldiers saw mob of 1,000s Pakistanis attack and kill a village of Pakistanis. I mean fvckin get real here ? Does anybody have a moral compass around here?

As regards the question whether Ahmadi are Muslim or not (I had long debate with my dad yesterday - He remembers the 1950s trouble) I don't frankly care. I certainly do not have any authority to judge another person's faith let alone decide who is a Muslim. I leave that to the almight. Of course there are plenty here who talk of the almighty but then decide to play god themselves.

 

[haviZsultan]

@haviZsultan I have gotten to know this Ahmadi, who is a doctor here in UK. He spends enormous amount of energy in elevating the name of Pakistan. He is incredibly patriotic. If every Pakistan made as much positive impact in UK as this guy has done in UK, Pakistan would be bracketed as one of the top countries in the world. The brand 'Pakistan' would carry enormous positive image in the world. Yet, I when I met him and he told me what was happening to his district last week (Chakwal) I felt disgusted, uttterly sickened.

So don't fvuckin tell me about some American Muslim woman who was refused a can of Diet Coke and that was made into a major incident when right in middle of Pakistan - area that has provided generations of soldiers saw mob of 1,000s Pakistanis attack and kill a village of Pakistanis. I mean fvckin get real here ? Does anybody have a moral compass around here?

As regards the question whether Ahmadi are Muslim or not (I had long debate with my dad yesterday - He remembers the 1950s trouble) I don't frankly care. I certainly do not have any authority to judge another person's faith let alone decide who is a Muslim. I leave that to the almight. Of course there are plenty here who talk of the almighty but then decide to play god themselves.

I agree. We cannot ask for rights in the west when we don't provide them to our own citizens right under our nose. Its disgusting. I also sometimes don't know what to do. These people insulting Ahmedis so viciously are a product of a purposely built ideology of hate which is still to this day being advocated in the Pakistani curriculum. They are the leaves of a tree and the root of this violent ideology is still standing.

Good thing some of us are critical about this. I don't even believe in equal rights for Ahmedis and minorities. I want extra rights for these minorities because knowing the situation in Pakistan only aiming for extra rights will give them equal rights in the end, no matter how high we aim.

 

[SQ8]

I disagree with 3 but rest is mostly good other than 2 a) Ahmedis want themselves to be called Ahmedis and any community should be called what it wants itself to be called.
b) Qadiani is an insult to the leader of the Ahmedis as well as a location from where Ahmedi's emerged. It is not a proper name. Calling anyone anything insulting to them is wrong. Like Indians calling us Porki's and Muslims Mian and Bhaya. Also note that we urdu speakers have still not come to term with calling ourselves from the place we are originally from like I call myself Lucknowi. People assume I am not a Pakistani when I say this sometimes. Some mak fun of me including people on this site. Then a lot of Muslims were born in Saudi (Najd or Hejaz at that time) and their next generations came to Pakistan. Yet they don't call ourselves Najdi or Hejazi.

If we can't come to terms in both the ethnic or religious sense (despite some of us trying) to call ourselves to be from a place we have some old familial/religious links how do we expect the same from Ahmedis?

Rest I agree with in some manner but let me get back to 2. I would like to note @Kaptaan has put forward similar views in point 2. But I do not acknowledge that there is no Islamic system at all because Umar and Abu Bakr both had a system for governing large non muslim populations through secularism.

What we and the current mullahs see is the tip of the ice burg. The violence, the killing of 3 of 4 righteous caliphs, the brutality of Hajjaj Bin Yousuf, the Persian genocide by Ibn Muslim and the crushing cruelty against the ummayads and dissenters by As Saffaq, the brutality of Selim I of the Ottomans. And of course the crushing of dissent, liberalism and independence through violence. This is the truth. But there has always been something I would call Islamic secularism beneath

I haven't had enough time to properly define Islamic secularism which I believe in but it definitely includes movements like the Akbar's Din E Ilahi, Iqbal's Ijtehad, Pir Roshan's Roshaniya, Mutazilite movement and Ibn Rushd's secularism . I will not elaborate on these movements as that will take up much space but a little research (google) will reveal they were secular movements that constantly rose and were crushed. To note Iqbal was insulted for defending Turkey's reforms. Pir Roshan was abused by the mainstream including Khushal Khan Khattak for promoting girls education, something unknown in Pashtun and Islamic world at that time. (This was hypocracy in the part of Khattak because some poetry he wrote was detailed in sexual themes.

Anyway it proves that some have resisted the tide of conservatism that has strangled us like a snake. It also proves that there has always been an undercurrent of liberalism in Muslim society. Hating Islam completely and advocating this superficial, conservative image of Islam is also wrong as conservatism, hating on minorities and taking their rights.

I wish you the best Oscar. This has been a very interesting debate and you have put forward good points. @Zibago, keep fighting the good fight. Most people I have met staying in Pakistan follow the same narrow mindedness as mullahs. No offense meant. Its easy to be a victim of the distorted history. Good to see you arguing for the better system and equality.

3. They can call themselves whatever they want, I dont have to. Trump supporters call themselves the true Americans, I dont have to agree with that.

b) the Sect originated in Qadiyan, hence Qadiyani. It is no insult at any point. The day Pakistanis finally throw whatever Iqbal taught down the drain, he will be known as Iqbal Sialkoti. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing ethnic about calling a movement by its origin. Which is why the Aligarh movement is associated with the city and not called a subcontinent muslim reform movement.

What you are painting as Islamic secularism is just pure moderated political thought, nothing Islamic or non Islamic about it. We need to expunge this habit of attaching Islam to everything. That is what the extremists do in their attempt to gain monopoly over Islam and keep everything under their control.

Conservatism too is understood incorrectly. I am very conservative on certain issues and very liberal on others, it is what is defined by my understand of the world, human history and behavior. There is no need to be liberal for the sake of liberal or conservative for the sake of conservatism.

As an example, I will never till my dying breath accept the movement from Qadiyan as Islamic until there is clarification to all the allegations regarding Mirza Ghulam's stature to them.

The state represents the majority and the majority is clear.Mohammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul-Muttalib IS the last Prophet of Allah for this earth and there will be no more after him. Anyone who proclaims so is a heretic and cannot be accepted as Muslim or as my brother/sister. The rest is for Allah to judge, but this is my conviction.

Additionally, anyone claiming to be Muslim whilst propogating or following another prophet is essentially damaging Islamic society and hence needs to be stopped by all civil means neccecary. Failure to do so by a community will require that Muslims expel them from their neighborhood and community.

This is irrelevant to the Qadiyani sect and is essentially the core ideal of both theological concepts and the example of the closest companions of the Prophet who knew Islam much much better than we ever will.

 

[Zibago]

Then remove regular taxes and make the only tax Jizya, it's not like most of Pakistan pays its regular taxes anyway.

They should be thanking the state for its services and allowing them to reside in Muslim land whilst practising their respective religion. Other Muslims must pay Zakah, it's one of our pillars, but the Kuffar can get away with never being charitable in their life. That's hardly respectable, Jizya is ensuring they are also charitable.

My right to practice my religion is greater than theirs if I'm in a Muslim country. In a Kaffir country their right to practice their religion is greater than mine. That's how it works.

Well I'm sorry if you disagree with public executions, but that's the way it has to go Islamically.

well most of us do pay GST on every frikin thing we buy

They should be thanking state for not killing them and giving them basic human rights hmm

Nope all citizens have equal rights in a just society

 

[SQ8]

I think the problem is not within the System but people itself , I am not going to say Sharia will do best in Pakistan but i will not give this system into a homicidal Mullah who's only hobby is to declare other Non Muslims and Wajab-ul-Qatal .
as for Umar ibn Khattab his assassination was the result of Muslims Invasion of Persian land ( an Act of Revenge no where even close to blame System )
for Uthman R.A what i learn about him , he was there from the very beginning of the Islam, so no one can doubt his knowledge of Islam and how the state runs under the first Two Caliphs as he was active member of Shura .. the people who rebel against him can be at fault, the issue can be resolved but again it was people who make vile Actions to Destabilize a system which was working pretty good.
and Finally for Ali RA , he was murdered in cold blood but his death clearly shows the Division among the Muslim community as he was lucky to get Shahadat and Mawavia escape death that day , if he was assassinated on that day as well, there would be a much bigger problem in Hands of the Muslims .



I hardly realize that , but thanks for reminding us ..

Until Muslims stop relying on the Mullah, as a class, as a social existence; we are doomed.
Pick up the Quran, Pick up the hadiath, do at least one Ayah and three Hadiath along with a small section of the life of the Prophet.. and you will NOT need the Mullah.

It is insulting to follow a way of life and then leave it to an uneducated moron whose greatest wish is copulating with virgin hoors.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I agree. We cannot ask for rights in the west when we don't provide them to our own citizens right under our nose.

Trust me in UK the legal rights of any citizen are equal despite what ethnic group or religion you follow. In practice there maybe some bias but the blueprint is equal.

In Pakistan it is not even equal on paper let alone practice. Hate is taught and nurtured. The results are predictable. You should read the Jusice Munir Commission Report. The last chapter is chilling in it's accuracy of what was to come. Todays Pakistan at war with itself.

We need to expunge this habit of attaching Islam to everything

I agree wit you. It;s like a industry. Every must carry 'Islamic' prefix. A great religion has been turned into political marketing tool.

@Oscar I see you are fan of Noam Chomsky. A great man indeed. He gives you a narrative of the world that is like fresh air,

 

[SQ8]

Nope all citizens have equal rights in a just society

Equal rights and entitlement to a designation are two differrent issues.
The current issue with Qadiyanis in Pakistan is a political one and has very little religious basis.
Declaring them non-Muslims or not is not the solution to the issue that causes the angst.

 

[Zibago]

Trust me in UK the legal rights of any citizen are equal despite what ethnic group or religion you follow. In practice there maybe some bias but the blueprint is equal.

In Pakistan it is not even equal on paper let alone practice. Hate is taught and nurtured. The results are predictable. You should read the Jusice Munir Commission Report. The last chapter is chilling in it's accuracy of what was to come. Todays Pakistan at war with itself.

I agree wit you. It;s like a industry. Every must carry 'Islamic' prefix. A great religion has been turned into political marketing tool.

We have a society where people take pride in being bigots and their is pindrop silence from those who dont agree with them adding insult to injury same group of clowns give lectures on how west is targetting rights of Muslims

Equal rights and entitlement to a designation are two differrent issues.
The current issue with Qadiyanis in Pakistan is a political one and has very little religious basis.
Declaring them non-Muslims or not is not the solution to the issue that causes the angst.

They have aready been declared Non-Muslims now people just want them dead and gone we saw that when so called Ashiqane Rasool stormed their worship place

 

[SQ8]

They have aready been declared Non-Muslims now people just want them dead and gone we saw that when so called Ashiqane Rasool stormed their worship place

That too is political. The movement essentially has no purpose beyond giving generally unemployed or untrained youth an outlet for their frustration. Its existence no longer as any actual relation to love of god or prophet but more towards keeping the coffers of the political leadership lined with donation and followers.

So what happens to the Qadiyanis may be under the pretext of religion, but is very political or financial. Declaring them muslims or non muslims or sainthood by the state will have zero effect on their current predicament.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

You guy's no doubt have heard of the saying 'war is too important to be left in the hands of generals' well in Pakistan religion is too important to be left in the hands of Mullahs. Pakistani's as whole are very susceptible to religious manipulation as stated by Justoce Munir Commision Report -

"If there is one thing which has been conclusively demonstrated in this inquiry, it is that provided you can persuade the masses to believe that something they are asked to do is religiously right or enjoined by religion, you can set them to any course of action, regardless of all considerations of discipline, loyalty, decency, morality or civic sense." [4]

And it warned -

"at the undesirability of the confluence of religion and state in Pakistan even for the purpose of binding its disparate ethnic elements together."[5]


When the Munir Commision asked the Mullahs to define what exactly is a Muslim -

In the course of the inquiry, Justice Munir pointedly asked every Muslim scholar who appeared before him if he knew of a definition of Islam which could be acceptable by the other sects as well; which could equally apply to everyone and by the help of which we could define, “Yes, this is a Muslim”, and “That is not a Muslim”

In the report Munir submits that no two scholars among all Muslim scholars interrogated, agreed on a single definition of what Islam was. In the case of one particular scholar, he wanted some more time to think over it, and Justice Kayani, who was a partner of Justice Munir in the enquiry commission, said: “I cannot give you more time because you have already taken more than fourteen hundred years to ponder over this question. Is that not enough? If fourteen centuries, plus some years are not enough for you to be able to define the very fundamentals of Islam, how much more time would you require?”

And now you know why Turkish state took control of religion and mosques under the Diniyat.

@KediKesenFare @zulqarnain @xenon54

 

[Hamza913]

well most of us do pay GST on every frikin thing we buy

They should be thanking state for not killing them and giving them basic human rights hmm

Nope all citizens have equal rights in a just society

Well then remove indirect taxes. Make the Kuffar only pay Jizya tax. Problem solved.

There's that and the fact that it's a goodwill gesture to show they are committed to benefiting our society. I don't think you seem to understand that Jizya is only for adult male Kuffar that are financially stable and not soldiers or religious figures. They can also become exempt from Jizya by doing something that greatly benefits the country.

Kuffar are different to us. They are exempt from so many rules Muslims must follow, and for that they have to say some sort of thank you. That's common decency. Why should Muslims have to pay Zakat, yet non Muslims don't have to pay a penny? And yet they receive the most of the same benefits (in some cases more so)? That's ridiculous.

If Muslims must pay Zakat, they must pay Jizya. Simple as (forgot to put it in my earlier post but I have corrected my decision).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Zibago @haviZsultan I am glad you guy's are standing by the rights of the weak and the minorities. I know it is not easy and majority have become infected with hatred or are apologists for hate and sectarinsm but we must do whatever we can to oppose this in every forum of life.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

Edmund Burke

 

[TMA]

.

"Additionally, anyone claiming to be Muslim whilst propogating or following another prophet is essentially damaging Islamic society and hence needs to be stopped by all civil means neccecary. Failure to do so by a community will require that Muslims expel them from their neighborhood and community."

Exactly!! Pakistanis and especially those Pakistanis who say they accept the Son of Abdullah (PBUH) as the Seal of Prophethood, need to understand what you have written above.

 

[SQ8]

"Additionally, anyone claiming to be Muslim whilst propogating or following another prophet is essentially damaging Islamic society and hence needs to be stopped by all civil means neccecary. Failure to do so by a community will require that Muslims expel them from their neighborhood and community."

Exactly!! Pakistanis and especially those Pakistanis who say they accept the Son of Abdullah (PBUH) as the Seal of Prophethood, need to understand what you have written above.

It is important, that we do not do so violently. As basic ijthead would show that during the nacent stages of Islam with people like Musailima it was important to ensure that the new zeal was not lost in these facsimilies. Hence, the campaigns were fought to remove them as it is VERY easy to entrap the ignorant(whom i do not define under rich or poor or even traditional educated types as ignorance is a condition and not a social status)as the TTP, Hizb Ut Tahrir, Jaish and other terrorist and extremist organizations do today.

Today, with Islam and Muslims still generally well established and plenty of them making babies and propogating a generally standard version of Islam(regardless of bloody conflict under political pretext) there is little danger of losing masses of Muslims to such movements.. of which the Qadiyani sect may or may not be one as many others exists throught the geography where Muslims exists.

In such a case, a social boycott vis a vis religious discussion and teachings is the way to go and the is way that is suitable for the current situation if one looks at the life of the Prophet and his closest companions.
That is Ijtehad and a bit of Qiyas with it as well.

One does not need a certiciate from a bunch of bearded folks sitting in some two room "establishment" to do that (save the universities of Cairo, Aligarh, Karachi,Islamabad and Osmania in Hyd India, very few Islamic Departments or institutions in the Muslim world can be considered all encompassing of every scholar or teaching).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

"Additionally, anyone claiming to be Muslim whilst propogating or following another prophet is essentially damaging Islamic society and hence needs to be stopped by all civil means neccecary. Failure to do so by a community will require that Muslims expel them from their neighborhood and community."

The Ahmadi's are doing this openly in UK. Now I ask you these questions -

1. Have they damaged you or the Islamic community in UK?
2. What actions have you taken to follow on from (1) to expel them from your neighbourhood?