Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag

[PARIKRAMA]

Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi

The Pentagon has backed proposals from US aviation giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin to manufacture top-line fighter aircraft as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative. The proposals, including breakthrough offers on transfer of technology and licences, were conveyed by US defence secretary Ashton Carter to defence minister Manohar Parrikar last week.

Boeing’s offer is for the versatile F-18 twin-engine fighter while Lockheed Martin’s is for the single-engined F-16. Since every F-18 costs about $100 million and F-16s are close to the $70-million mark each, the proposal represents a very large investment. If either comes through, it will mean setting up of a production line, and will translate into a giant leap for the aviation sector in India.

Government sources said the US has also accepted an Indian non-paper on broader export controls in light of the latter being designated a major defence partner of Washington. The two sides also discussed sharing of sensitive data related to top-end defence technology and possible transfer of high-altitude long-duration drones for maritime surveillance.

The possible Indian acquisition of the battle-proven Predator drone was also discussed. “Defence minister Manohar Parrikar’s visit to the US had significant outcomes with Pentagon agreeing to work on the Indian non-paper for easier export controls,” said a senior official.

New Delhi is pleased with the Pentagon move, but the US departments of commerce and state will have to be partnered to make this happen as clearances on licences and transfer of technology lie within their ambit. “Since a major component of Grippen NG fighter, including the engine and the radar, are US, the latest developments show that there would be no obstacle from Washington on even transfer of technology for Swedish fighter. The Pentagon, however, understands that all these proposals will have to go through the competitive route,” said the official.

During his three-day US visit, Parrikar visited the Boeing Apache and Chinook helicopter factory in Philadelphia with the Indian Air Force (IAF) showing interest in the newly-developed KC-46 strategic tanker to augment the Indian mid-air refuelling tanker fleet.

The IAF’s requirement has been pegged at 126 multi-role fighters. This means at least 90 fighters are to be made in India as the remaining 36 will be Rafales, the deal for which is in the last lap. The IAF’s squadron strength has dwindled to 33, with the mandated strength being 42 squadrons of 18-20 planes each.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...n-india-tag/story-GYmjHZQc3oP5kBpGD03KwK.html

+++
Comments

• I have said time and again the prices are costly then all what has claimed here
• See for yourself
  • F16 Block 70/72- $70 Mn
  • F18 ~ $100 Mn
• When i have said Rafale is cheaper than F18 people did not believe much and when now its clear look at the cost of F16 as well to understand where we stand really
• I have said clearly here what F16 assembling line really contains and what Boeing line also gave as part of the package.
• Still look at the state of the affairs.
• The loaded Rafale is at $85 Mn and yet the options available in front is there for all to see.
• Predator point or Guardian B ER version i have said also again and again. That is still the prime aim

about KC 46 AAR

https://defence.pk/threads/india-cancels-deal-for-six-airbus-tankers.441923/page-4#post-8522050

• If this news is not yellow journalism, then its going to be a big suicide. Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.
• It will also point out DM MP is saying one thing but in reality he does not have confidence on LCA at all and wants at double the price of the LCA , the F16 Blk 70/72 at $70 Mn
• WIth F18 costlier than Rafale in procurement, and it does not meet IAF and IN requirements and still if we go then again its a big mistake.
• Add to it the twist of competitive route meaning another evaluation and sheer time waste
• if either teen comes, its a nightmare for sure..
• Enjoy the whole facade...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @salarsikander @Arsalan @others

 

[kaykay]

Choose the fighter which gives maximum benefit in terms of ToT and other benefits like cheaper to maintain and such. My personal choice will be Gripen or F-18SH if few Growlers are offered too( even if watered down version)

 

[Arsalan]

I am waiting to know which plane turns out to the World's best plane now

On a serious note, @PARIKRAMA thanks for tagging me here. This really will be huge for India, no doubt about that. This is one of those countless indications of the geopolitical alliances shifting that i also have been talking about recently. The initial remark is not out of some hatred, it is just a reflection of how we people have the tendency of blowing things out of proportion. Trust me, you will also see that happening.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi

The Pentagon has backed proposals from US aviation giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin to manufacture top-line fighter aircraft as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative. The proposals, including breakthrough offers on transfer of technology and licences, were conveyed by US defence secretary Ashton Carter to defence minister Manohar Parrikar last week.

Boeing’s offer is for the versatile F-18 twin-engine fighter while Lockheed Martin’s is for the single-engined F-16. Since every F-18 costs about $100 million and F-16s are close to the $70-million mark each, the proposal represents a very large investment. If either comes through, it will mean setting up of a production line, and will translate into a giant leap for the aviation sector in India.

Government sources said the US has also accepted an Indian non-paper on broader export controls in light of the latter being designated a major defence partner of Washington. The two sides also discussed sharing of sensitive data related to top-end defence technology and possible transfer of high-altitude long-duration drones for maritime surveillance.

The possible Indian acquisition of the battle-proven Predator drone was also discussed. “Defence minister Manohar Parrikar’s visit to the US had significant outcomes with Pentagon agreeing to work on the Indian non-paper for easier export controls,” said a senior official.

New Delhi is pleased with the Pentagon move, but the US departments of commerce and state will have to be partnered to make this happen as clearances on licences and transfer of technology lie within their ambit. “Since a major component of Grippen NG fighter, including the engine and the radar, are US, the latest developments show that there would be no obstacle from Washington on even transfer of technology for Swedish fighter. The Pentagon, however, understands that all these proposals will have to go through the competitive route,” said the official.

During his three-day US visit, Parrikar visited the Boeing Apache and Chinook helicopter factory in Philadelphia with the Indian Air Force (IAF) showing interest in the newly-developed KC-46 strategic tanker to augment the Indian mid-air refuelling tanker fleet.

The IAF’s requirement has been pegged at 126 multi-role fighters. This means at least 90 fighters are to be made in India as the remaining 36 will be Rafales, the deal for which is in the last lap. The IAF’s squadron strength has dwindled to 33, with the mandated strength being 42 squadrons of 18-20 planes each.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...n-india-tag/story-GYmjHZQc3oP5kBpGD03KwK.html

+++
Comments

• I have said time and again the prices are costly then all what has claimed here
• See for yourself
  • F16 Block 70/72- $70 Mn
  • F18 ~ $100 Mn
• When i have said Rafale is cheaper than F18 people did not believe much and when now its clear look at the cost of F16 as well to understand where we stand really
• I have said clearly here what F16 assembling line really contains and what Boeing line also gave as part of the package.
• Still look at the state of the affairs.
• The loaded Rafale is at $85 Mn and yet the options available in front is there for all to see.
• Predator point or Guardian B ER version i have said also again and again. That is still the prime aim

about KC 46 AAR

View attachment 331559
https://defence.pk/threads/india-cancels-deal-for-six-airbus-tankers.441923/page-4#post-8522050

• If this news is not yellow journalism, then its going to be a big suicide. Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.
• It will also point out DM MP is saying one thing but in reality he does not have confidence on LCA at all and wants at double the price of the LCA , the F16 Blk 70/72 at $70 Mn
• WIth F18 costlier than Rafale in procurement, and it does not meet IAF and IN requirements and still if we go then again its a big mistake.
• Add to it the twist of competitive route meaning another evaluation and sheer time waste
• if either teen comes, its a nightmare for sure..
• Enjoy the whole facade...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @salarsikander @Arsalan @others

So the US, is not even taking sides, thats unusual...
Gripen NG was a demonstrator of technology, it is Gripen E that is offered.
The Gripen E radar is not US manufactured,
it is made by Selex, part of Finmeccanica.

 

[Tamilnadu]

A production line fot F-18s
A production line for SU 30 mki/FGFA(in futue).
A production line for Rafale..

It happens only in India.

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

@PARIKRAMA
I am neutral on this topic as now its becoming extremely confusing

2 times DM announced f 16 in out of race even in Parliament but speculations are refused to die, means there could be something happening underground

As of I know 36 Rafael deal is above 7 billion @68000 cr. Plus 1 billion extra for ammunitions
As you inform its 85 million so what is the breakup of 7 billion?
Also considering AESA with f 16 and local production means setting up of not only sub assemblies but complete production resulting in good amount of deal money again coming back into our economy with job creation and high level know how with better spare supply and secirity which in not the case with Rafael

With F 16 we will be tier 1 supplier whereas in case of Rafael it will tier 2 or 3rd.

Also being from Indian production line it would be far economic to maintain and later upgrade with latest tech then Rafael, mirage up gradation costing 45 million per old fighter with no AESA (Comparing brand new f16 with Indian production and AESA 70 million $ not bad)

Now at last I presume selection will depend on our priority, whether today we want the best product available today or building capacity for later self sufficiency with our own indigenous project's following best SOPs. As French refused to take gurranty of Indian production means somewhere we are seriously lacking in quality of job perform and French doesn't want to upgrade us to world level manufacturing.
Whereas I don't see this case with LM

Lastly I hope India doesn't commit mistake of trying to get best of both of them and commit for both chewing more then you digest and ending up failing to accomplished any of the goal as mostly happened in the past.
I want give 100% priority and commitments any one among both.

@GURU DUTT what is you opinion?
@PARIKRAMA looking forward for your reply also your opinion about my thought in this matter

 

[footmarks]

Full production line in India does not guarantee full TOT. Coca cola too have full production lines in almost all countries, yet no one get to know their "secret formula". hope you can get the point.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA
I am neutral on this topic as now its becoming extremely confusing

2 times DM announced f 16 in out of race even in Parliament but speculations are refused to die, means there could be something happening underground

As of I know 36 Rafael deal is above 7 billion @68000 cr. Plus 1 billion extra for ammunitions
As you inform its 85 million so what is the breakup of 7 billion?
Also considering AESA with f 16 and local production means setting up of not only sub assemblies but complete production resulting in good amount of deal money again coming back into our economy with job creation and high level know how with better spare supply and secirity which in not the case with Rafael

With F 16 we will be tier 1 supplier whereas in case of Rafael it will tier 2 or 3rd.

Also being from Indian production line it would be far economic to maintain and later upgrade with latest tech then Rafael, mirage up gradation costing 45 million per old fighter with no AESA (Comparing brand new f16 with Indian production and AESA 70 million $ not bad)

Now at last I presume selection will depend on our priority, whether today we want the best product available today or building capacity for later self sufficiency with our own indigenous project's following best SOPs. As French refused to take gurranty of Indian production means somewhere we are seriously lacking in quality of job perform and French doesn't want to upgrade us to world level manufacturing.
Whereas I don't see this case with LM

Lastly I hope India doesn't commit mistake of trying to get best of both of them and commit for both chewing more then you digest and ending up failing to accomplished any of the goal as mostly happened in the past.
I want give 100% priority and commitments any one among both.

@GURU DUTT what is you opinion?
@PARIKRAMA looking forward for your reply also your opinion about my thought in this matter

About Rafales
The 36 rafales is a package comprising of jets+support package +weapons at below Rs 59000Crs. The weapons is costly bcz we have bought both Meteors and other weapons. In terms of actual rafale cost, its at par with FrAF without the VAT angle and with a limited profitability margin of less than 5%. Our requests for base+customization +demand for 90% plus operational availability needs a solid operational support package which drives the cost up.

The original IGA part was clear that as part of the offset DA will set up a production line in India for second part of the deal under which a total of 5+ tranches of Rafale were suppose to be ordered. For that DA has informed all its 600+ suppliers as well last year end.. All this is in Rafale sticky. So, its not tier 2/3 supplier infact its tier 1 supplier when they open up shops in India for the new line.

More details are there in Rafale sticky.

About F16/F18 or any US jet and associated package + technology transfer

I still maintain this earnestly and its very much applicable for F-16s

https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...kheed-martins-f-16-offer.441731/#post-8515935


For MLU part, I am quoting @R!CK

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-20#post-8593688

For assembly line part

https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-21#post-8593976

You will realise its inferior to Su30 MKI line what we have and thats the minimum benchmark. Rafales under MII is suppose to be in similar aspect and will better the MKI line by localising all content over batches of production and we will have much higher indigenous content before the first 90 orders are completed. Now where do you see F16/F18 to have similar setup when critically nothing concrete is ever shifted about the portions which India needs the most.

Hope it helps..

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

Full production line in India does not guarantee full TOT. Coca cola too have full production lines in almost all countries, yet no one get to know their "secret formula". hope you can get the point.

Coca Cola even doesn't own any production line , others doing it for him . it is only supplying one chemical in salt foam to be mixed into the water.

 

[footmarks]

Coca Cola even doesn't own any production line , others doing it for him . it is only supplying one chemical in salt foam to be mixed into the water.

They own production lines through their "fully owned subsidiaries" in other countries. Though, mostly yes, they get it done through 3rd parties.

 

[Aero]

. Since every F-18 costs about $100 million and F-16s are close to the $70-million mark each, the proposal represents a very large investment. If either comes through, it will mean setting up of a production line, and will translate into a giant leap for the aviation sector in India.

F-35 should also be considered as if India also partners it will be able to bring down costs and we may have 5th gen fighter in inventory.
Will they give any ToT that will actually benefit us in a useful manner as production in India is different from production by India.

“Since a major component of Gripen NG fighter, including the engine and the radar, are US, the latest developments show that there would be no obstacle from Washington on even transfer of technology for Swedish fighter.

@PARIKRAMA @A.P. Richelieu
Radar on Gripen NG/E is Selex Raven ES-05
http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/raven-1

Comments

• I have said time and again the prices are costly then all what has claimed here
• See for yourself
  • F16 Block 70/72- $70 Mn
  • F18 ~ $100 Mn
• When i have said Rafale is cheaper than F18 people did not believe much and when now its clear look at the cost of F16 as well to understand where we stand really
• I have said clearly here what F16 assembling line really contains and what Boeing line also gave as part of the package.
• Still look at the state of the affairs.
• The loaded Rafale is at $85 Mn and yet the options available in front is there for all to see.
• Predator point or Guardian B ER version i have said also again and again. That is still the prime aim

about KC 46 AAR
If this news is not yellow journalism, then its going to be a big suicide. Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.

• It will also point out DM MP is saying one thing but in reality he does not have confidence on LCA at all and wants at double the price of the LCA , the F16 Blk 70/72 at $70 Mn
• WIth F18 costlier than Rafale in procurement, and it does not meet IAF and IN requirements and still if we go then again its a big mistake.
• Add to it the twist of competitive route meaning another evaluation and sheer time waste
• if either teen comes, its a nightmare for sure..
• Enjoy the whole facade...

Totally agree with you on this procuring F-16/F/18 in very large no over Rafale/LCA will not a Good idea in terms of capability. F-18 should be out of equation totally as being more costly and not as capable as Rafale-M. What if we get a good deal on F-35 (Difficult i know for Tot)?

Large no. of Units target given by these firms means that we can say bye-bye to large induction of Tejas as IAF may tend to get Tejas as Army with Arjun.

Well only benefit currently visible is we may get slack in other deals like Predator-B/C or KC-46 (though a lot of Air Forces choose A330 MRTT over it)

About Rafales
The 36 rafales is a package comprising of jets+support package +weapons at below Rs 59000Crs. The weapons is costly bcz we have bought both Meteors and other weapons. In terms of actual rafale cost, its at par with FrAF without the VAT angle and with a limited profitability margin of less than 5%. Our requests for base+customization +demand for 90% plus operational availability needs a solid operational support package which drives the cost up.

The original IGA part was clear that as part of the offset DA will set up a production line in India for second part of the deal under which a total of 5+ tranches of Rafale were suppose to be ordered. For that DA has informed all its 600+ suppliers as well last year end.. All this is in Rafale sticky. So, its not tier 2/3 supplier infact its tier 1 supplier when they open up shops in India for the new line.

More details are there in Rafale sticky.

About F16/F18 or any US jet and associated package + technology transfer

I still maintain this earnestly and its very much applicable for F-16s


View attachment 331591
https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...kheed-martins-f-16-offer.441731/#post-8515935


For MLU part, I am quoting @R!CK

View attachment 331593
https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-20#post-8593688

For assembly line part

View attachment 331592
https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-21#post-8593976

You will realise its inferior to Su30 MKI line what we have and that's the minimum benchmark. Rafales under MII is suppose to be in similar aspect and will better the MKI line by localising all content over batches of production and we will have much higher indigenous content before the first 90 orders are completed. Now where do you see F16/F18 to have similar setup when critically nothing concrete is ever shifted about the portions which India needs the most.
Hope it helps..

Well it again proves your point, we will not be getting the required benefits for placing such huge orders. I think Rafale under original MMRCA with better negotiations would have proved much better for us.
If we can get all current Jet Engine tech with 100% Tot for this deal then that's something interesting.

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

They own production lines through their "fully owned subsidiaries" in other countries. Though, mostly yes, they get it done through 3rd parties.

In india Parle own and operate all bottling plants for coca cola, after coca cola entered India parle business finished and they end up bottler's of coca cola giving its thumbup and limca iconic brands to coca cola

 

[noksss]

 

[anant_s]

KC 46 AAR

This is massive if true.

KC 46 is in a league of its own and if it is indeed being considered by India, Boeing would be really ecstatic.
One thing is for sure, we won't see Ilyushin aircraft as next generation AAR platform for IAF.
& with India looking for other established platforms (AirBus/Boeing) for AWACS, Russia would really be worried in this aspect at least.
@Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA
Hypothetical question (& offtopic too)
Is there any news of India looking for AESA radar development for fighters in form of JV with any foreign vendor?
For some strange reason i've never heard of any news related to Radars in context of MII

 

[Abingdonboy]

about KC 46 AAR

https://defence.pk/threads/india-cancels-deal-for-six-airbus-tankers.441923/page-4#post-8522050

This part doesn't make any sense to me bro.

1) Boeing never took part in the IAF AAR competitions (both times it was IL-78 vs A330 MRTT)
2) DRDO has already selected the A330 to be the platform for their AWACS (India)
3) There are SIGNIFCANT MRO facilties in India for the Airbus fleet and this is being expanded rapidly across both civilian and military types


Anyway, as the Rafale deal is coming to a close this BS (F-16 for India) is being pushed again, it is all too predictable.