Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag

[anant_s]

• If this news is not yellow journalism, then its going to be a big suicide. Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.

• It will also point out DM MP is saying one thing but in reality he does not have confidence on LCA at all and wants at double the price of the LCA , the F16 Blk 70/72 at $70 Mn

• WIth F18 costlier than Rafale in procurement, and it does not meet IAF and IN requirements and still if we go then again its a big mistake.

• Add to it the twist of competitive route meaning another evaluation and sheer time waste

• if either teen comes, its a nightmare for sure..

Surely none of this is happening.
This would amount to a really big scam, if F16 is chosen over LCA and/or F18 over Rafale.
yes it would be a political suicide.

Anyway, as the Rafale deal is coming to a close this BS (F-16 for India) is being pushed again, it is all too predictable.

Yes, to me too, it looks like a last ditch desperate attempt.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Don't you guys think there's enough room for another fighter jet in the Indian inventory? Something in the class of F-16/Gripen?

And what if the number of Rafales are capped to 36?

 

[anant_s]

Boeing never took part in the IAF AAR competitions (both times it was IL-78 vs A330 MRTT)

is the news we heard recently correct that A330 chosen as L1 bidder has now been rejected as the Life cycle cost calculations were incorrect?
There could be a re-tender (surprise surprise ) again.

And what if the number of Rafales are capped to 36?

Sir, this 36 number makes no sense at all operationally.
Assuming 90% availability, where do we want to post these 3 squadrons?
Against China, where there is a huge numerical superiority. Even if we take statistical kill probability, China would decimate these small numbers quite quickly without suffering a reciprocal significant damage to its fleet
Against Pakistan, where existing platforms (MiG 29, MKI and Mirage 2000) are enough to counter threat.
In Strategic roles, where again MKI is more than enough

Someone has surely taken into account why they would want to spend 59000 crores on new platform and one factor surely is how to build strategy and threat handling around this new bird. Surely these numbers have to be around 120 (or ~8 squadrons) minimum, even if not immediately.

 

[Spectre]

Surely none of this is happening.
This would amount to a really big scam, if F16 is chosen over LCA and/or F18 over Rafale.
yes it would be a political suicide.


Yes, to me too, it looks like a last ditch desperate attempt.

@PARIKRAMA I increasingly am getting a feeling - GoI is looking to pass time. Final Plan is to stick with Tejas in light category, mirages and 36 rafales in mid to tide us over and Sukhois along with upgrades in heavy.

No large scale MII for medium jets, get the best price possible on 36 Rafales to taken on the A2G roles in case of incursions.

All efforts and resources would go towards AMCA and FGFA as our future platforms from 2025 onwards. its risk but can pay off big time.

It is so simple but elegant

Light - Tejas. We can keep pumping them out as much as we wish along with iterative improvements

Medium - AMCA. Long term replacement for menagerie of Migs, Mirages and eventually Rafales.

Heavy - PAKFA for starters and FGFA replacing upgraded SU-30 MKIs long term.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Hypothetical question (& offtopic too)
Is there any news of India looking for AESA radar development for fighters in form of JV with any foreign vendor?
For some strange reason i've never heard of any news related to Radars in context of MII

I have heard about 2052 and it's usage for indigenous project uaing the tot route.

This part doesn't make any sense to me bro.

1) Boeing never took part in the IAF AAR competitions (both times it was IL-78 vs A330 MRTT)
2) DRDO has already selected the A330 to be the platform for their AWACS (India)
3) There are SIGNIFCANT MRO facilties in India for the Airbus fleet and this is being expanded rapidly across both civilian and military types


Anyway, as the Rafale deal is coming to a close this BS (F-16 for India) is being pushed again, it is all too predictable.

It's a smart move bcz we are window shopping and asking them to upgrade Air India Boeing MRO, Nagpur to handle all such aircrafts.

This is basically to take their attention away from main frontline assets but limiting them to strategic transport and support fleet.

 

[-xXx-]

Sir, this 36 number makes no sense at all operationally.

And bargaining the price on 36 while you are going to procure 100s more doesn't make sense either.

36 Rafales can well be placed for strategic operations as a part of SFC.

TIER 1 - FGFA and future AMCA

TIER 2 - Su 30 upgraded to Super Sukhois with AESA and Brahmos

TIER 2.5 / 3 - F-16 Bk 70 / LCA + Mig 29 + Mirage 2000 + Jaguar

I can very well see a space for F-16s as they can not only augment the numbers but provide a significant leap in terms of capability considering they will be operating the best of US ammunition.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA I increasingly am getting a feeling - GoI is looking to pass time. Final Plan is to stick with Tejas in light category, mirages and 36 rafales in mid to tide us over and Sukhois along with upgrades in heavy.

No large scale MII for medium jets, get the best price possible on 36 Rafales to taken on the A2G roles in case of incursions.

All efforts and resources would go towards AMCA and FGFA as our future platforms from 2025 onwards. its risk but can pay off big time.

It is so simple but elegant

Light - Tejas. We can keep pumping them out as much as we wish along with iterative improvements

Medium - AMCA. Long term replacement for menagerie of Migs, Mirages and eventually Rafales.

Heavy - PAKFA for starters and FGFA replacing upgraded SU-30 MKIs long term.

No doubt it will pay off if we can.make AMCA as per what's written as basic requirements. I really doubt that as stealth VLO fighter production is a long gestation project with technology being researched, evolved and absorbed by local MIC to handle such a project.

LCA will work if and when we are serious about production per year seriously. I don know for sure if HAL can handle such a production rate and will scuttle all efforts for a private line like it has been doing against L&T effort to set up a line for LCA for last 1.5-2 years. This is inspite of what it talks in public but probably protecting it's territory bcz it understands that L&T can make it much bigger once it's given a full line responsibility . Continuous improvement program will become much quicker for sure in such a case.

Thus we have to have a pseudo 5th gen LO fighter production in India in order to prepare the MIC with credible TOT absorption. Bcz that's the only way we can prepare ourselves or else we have to pump more R&D and wait for some time say a decade or more to get the know how in-house.

Someone has surely taken into account why they would want to spend 59000 crores on new platform and one factor surely is how to build strategy and threat handling around this new bird. Surely these numbers have to be around 120 (or ~8 squad

100 percent correct...

 

[randomradio]

Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.

The LCA program will happen for the Mk1 and Mk1A for the IAF. The manufacturing will switch to the N-LCA after the IAF's quota is fulfilled. So LCA program will not be affected by the imported aircraft.

After IAF's current LCA order, they will start taking in the AMCA, so the LCA will become irrelevant anyway.

 

[-xXx-]

The LCA program will happen for the Mk1 and Mk1A for the IAF. The manufacturing will switch to the N-LCA after the IAF's quota is fulfilled. So LCA program will not be affected by the imported aircraft.

After IAF's current LCA order, they will start taking in the AMCA, so the LCA will become irrelevant anyway.

Exactly.

LCA Mk 1 and Mk 1 A is reality and I do not see Mk 2 going live with all those structural changes required. India need to shift focus to 5th gen afterwards.

The need of Mk 2 need to be fulfilled from outside.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

is the news we heard recently correct that A330 chosen as L1 bidder has now been rejected as the Life cycle cost calculations were incorrect?
There could be a re-tender (surprise surprise ) again.


Sir, this 36 number makes no sense at all operationally.
Assuming 90% availability, where do we want to post these 3 squadrons?
Against China, where there is a huge numerical superiority. Even if we take statistical kill probability, China would decimate these small numbers quite quickly without suffering a reciprocal significant damage to its fleet
Against Pakistan, where existing platforms (MiG 29, MKI and Mirage 2000) are enough to counter threat.
In Strategic roles, where again MKI is more than enough

Someone has surely taken into account why they would want to spend 59000 crores on new platform and one factor surely is how to build strategy and threat handling around this new bird. Surely these numbers have to be around 120 (or ~8 squadrons) minimum, even if not immediately.

According to Your reasoning, the 20 B2 bombers in USAF are totally useless.
If India enters a conflict with China, India need numbers, but those numbers does not have to be Rafale.

While Mirages, Jaguars and MiG-29s are beeing upgraded, it is a short term thing,
and they won't be around for a long time.

The reasoning behind the MII program seems to be to increase the numbers, with either Rafale
or another aircraft type, the others beeing F-16,F-18 and Gripen E.
It might be just a negotiating ploy vs France.
Speculation is useless, until the Indian Government comes out of the wardrobe.

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

About Rafales
The 36 rafales is a package comprising of jets+support package +weapons at below Rs 59000Crs. The weapons is costly bcz we have bought both Meteors and other weapons. In terms of actual rafale cost, its at par with FrAF without the VAT angle and with a limited profitability margin of less than 5%. Our requests for base+customization +demand for 90% plus operational availability needs a solid operational support package which drives the cost up.

The original IGA part was clear that as part of the offset DA will set up a production line in India for second part of the deal under which a total of 5+ tranches of Rafale were suppose to be ordered. For that DA has informed all its 600+ suppliers as well last year end.. All this is in Rafale sticky. So, its not tier 2/3 supplier infact its tier 1 supplier when they open up shops in India for the new line.

More details are there in Rafale sticky.

About F16/F18 or any US jet and associated package + technology transfer

I still maintain this earnestly and its very much applicable for F-16s


View attachment 331591
https://defence.pk/threads/why-indi...kheed-martins-f-16-offer.441731/#post-8515935


For MLU part, I am quoting @R!CK

View attachment 331593
https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-20#post-8593688

For assembly line part

View attachment 331592
https://defence.pk/threads/lockheed...rted-to-the-world.443136/page-21#post-8593976

You will realise its inferior to Su30 MKI line what we have and thats the minimum benchmark. Rafales under MII is suppose to be in similar aspect and will better the MKI line by localising all content over batches of production and we will have much higher indigenous content before the first 90 orders are completed. Now where do you see F16/F18 to have similar setup when critically nothing concrete is ever shifted about the portions which India needs the most.

Hope it helps..

I see you are whole hearted supporter of Rafael
I see we all Indians made the suituition very confusing, we are considering everything available on the earth.
There is no clear line of thinking, no goals, just running behind everything comes in front of us and ending up standing at same place where we were in 2005.
We are considering Fgfa, Indian 5gen project and even F 35
I to had objection abt outdated tech F 16, but the prospects of Indian manufacturing seems to good for me as I have bad feeling abt Rafael who at the end moment of finalizing deal put the strange condition (not taking guaranty) I hope this time it will not put something like this.
Also I feel strange of your claim they are doing on just 5% margin and still parriker asking for further rate reduction.
High tech items don't sold on 5%. Also if you considered 50% deal value back investment also along with few critical tech. Transfer's. Low possibility.

I like to say aquring platform from US would be more preferable as US and our interests are converging and for US supplying platforms is just not only abt profits (but in case of French yes) Its much more like in our case supplying weapons to Vietnam is not profit but making our bond more stronger.
So China and pak will have more breath easy and smiling on news of India rejecting US for someone else.
Considering future conflict probability with China , India should not depend on Russia much.
At last I am keeping faith on you but if this time something happenes I will catch you

On serious note I keep blind faith on Mr Parrikar what ever he will decides will be in best interest of our country. Only worry abt time

 

[anant_s]

According to Your reasoning, the 20 B2 bombers in USAF are totally useless.

Again what are you comparing?
Had those 36 been F 22, that would've been a totally different situation isn't it?
Please go back to original MMRCA process and thought behind that.
India wanted to replace a number of legacy fighters with MMRCA winner and although there is no denying the fact that a single modern day fighter is perhaps more than several of previous generation fighters capability wise, we also need to look it with respect of threat perceptions, that change.
Let us see it in context of China (since i mentioned it originally). Today China operates several advanced 4++ generation fighters and with numerical superiority it has over IAF, India needs its match not only in terms of technological matching but also in numbers.
& that is why i mentioned, the Rafale numbers have to be more than 36 to fit them into a larger tactical strategy.
Coming back to B2, these bombers have flown numerous missions without suffering a even single loss in combat role. There is absolutely no peer for these machines and therefore USAF can operate these 20 birds almost unchallenged to take out almost any threat.

While Mirages, Jaguars and MiG-29s are being upgraded, it is a short term thing,
and they won't be around for a long time.

i agree, but Rafale is a long term investment. These will serve long after MiG 29, Jaguar and Mirage would've gone. MMRCA defined role of the winner as to take on duties of several fighters in A2A and A2G roles.
We discussed in past, how having a common fighter in roles hitherto played by several platforms, should be a prime consideration and that is what Rafale looks to do.
However we are now stuck in a situation where pricing issue has become very murky (with comparisons with MMRCA price tags etc). Honestly, purchasing 36 Rafales off the shelf in terms of price should not be done on pro-rata cost basis of MMRCA offer.
I would've loved to see India giving a firm and clear commitment to Dassault and France in general on Rafale's role and its future purchases. This would've created a lot of trust and may be we could've got a much better offer.
But some chose to play theatrics allowing other MMRCA bidders to come back in a hope to create pressure on Dassault. It hasn't worked.
Hope this sort of foggy situation gets cleared quickly.

It might be just a negotiating ploy vs France.

Exactly and in my mind we have done it very poorly.
@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Rafale's performance in whatever Combat duties till now and then winning a gruelling MMRCA technical evaluation has given Dassault enough of credibility and advertising in International market for prospective customers (i can vaguely draw parallels between how similar situation helped UAC/Sukhoi sell Su 30 variants after India inducted them in massive numbers starting late 90s, early 2000s).
So now we have a situation where Dassault will find customers for Rafale and it may turnout that India may have to wait for them despite having First Mover's advantage.
Off all things we wish to have for our defence forces, i hope we could get a fast forward button for defence procurement mechanism. pronto!

@Taygibay @Vergennes @nair

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Again what are you comparing?
Had those 36 been F 22, that would've been a totally different situation isn't it?
Please go back to original MMRCA process and thought behind that.
India wanted to replace a number of legacy fighters with MMRCA winner and although there is no denying the fact that a single modern day fighter is perhaps more than several of previous generation fighters capability wise, we also need to look it with respect of threat perceptions, that change.
Let us see it in context of China (since i mentioned it originally). Today China operates several advanced 4++ generation fighters and with numerical superiority it has over IAF, India needs its match not only in terms of technological matching but also in numbers.
& that is why i mentioned, the Rafale numbers have to be more than 36 to fit them into a larger tactical strategy.
Coming back to B2, these bombers have flown numerous missions without suffering a even single loss in combat role. There is absolutely no peer for these machines and therefore USAF can operate these 20 birds almost unchallenged to take out almost any threat.


i agree, but Rafale is a long term investment. These will serve long after MiG 29, Jaguar and Mirage would've gone. MMRCA defined role of the winner as to take on duties of several fighters in A2A and A2G roles.
We discussed in past, how having a common fighter in roles hitherto played by several platforms, should be a prime consideration and that is what Rafale looks to do.
However we are now stuck in a situation where pricing issue has become very murky (with comparisons with MMRCA price tags etc). Honestly, purchasing 36 Rafales off the shelf in terms of price should not be done on pro-rata cost basis of MMRCA offer.
I would've loved to see India giving a firm and clear commitment to Dassault and France in general on Rafale's role and its future purchases. This would've created a lot of trust and may be we could've got a much better offer.
But some chose to play theatrics allowing other MMRCA bidders to come back in a hope to create pressure on Dassault. It hasn't worked.
Hope this sort of foggy situation gets cleared quickly.

So 36 Rafale and 90 F-35 would be a useless combination....

If 100+ Rafale were the preferred choice of India, then MII would not be something the Indian
Government would bring up, would it?

There is something about the Rafale deal that the Indian Government is not happy about,
and unless that is resolved, India either will have to accept French terms or buy something else.

You have to look at available funding and try to get the best bang for the buck.

Getting a fighter which is at the end of development has a lot of hidden costs.

 

[anant_s]

90 F-35

??
F 35 are not on offer to India. Are they?

If 100+ Rafale were the preferred choice of India, then MII would not be something the Indian
Government would bring up, would it?

There is something about the Rafale deal that the Indian Government is not happy about,
and unless that is resolved, India either will have to accept French terms or buy something else.

By the looks of it, Price is the only issue remaining now. We had a discussion going some time back that Dassault did not want to partner with state run HAL for its assembly line in India, should India choose to manufacture quantities beyond 36 and rather wanted to partner with a private sector company.
I just read in one of @PARIKRAMA post, that President Hollande has given India assurances for proposed domestic production of Rafales, so obviously there is something going behind the curtains on more Rafales and New Delhi's engagement with Boeing, LM, SAAB could well be a smoke screen.

 

[[Bregs]]

If F-16(rejected 7 yrs ago) selected after some cosmetic changes in avionics to fill rapidly falling strength of IAF squadrons. what will it be called modernization or compromise ?