Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag

[salarsikander]

@PARIKRAMA Thankf or the tag as well as for the informative post.

It baffles me agaian and again when F-16 was rejected in the competition 7 years ago why the hell there are talk of setting up local production line then ? and that too in terms of US. As you have pointed out very clearly that you will be only assmebling kits thats all. All the technological transfer is hogwash, BS from US this is just to get inside their industry and mould it in a way so as to make war with china inevitable. There is no doubt that they will pump?boost the MIC of India to the point where it would be possible for India to go on a long sustained war campaign against China.

The cozying up of US to is not without reason and we all are well aware of the merits. This is just to giv the indian planners a confidence in their defense hardware that any war with China can be sustained thats all.

While in reality we all know how they will grab the customer by balls when MLU program comes after 30 years and f-16 will be pretty much obsolete by then and it will become next india mig 21

 

[randomradio]

Guys, what's up with the confusion here? The current plan is to manufacture the LCA, a twin engine jet and a single engine jet.

Earlier, we planned to manufacture 300 Rafales, but we can't afford that so we switched to a twin and single engine split to control costs. Depending on the situation, we can cancel the single engine and stay with the twin engine jets.

 

[volatile]

Full production line in India does not guarantee full TOT. Coca cola too have full production lines in almost all countries, yet no one get to know their "secret formula". hope you can get the point.

Excellent point .ICs/Chips ToT at times becomes joke as technology is vision not hardware its like XEROX copying something but no one knows what is happening inside the machine .

 

[Hephaestus]

If F-16(rejected 7 yrs ago) selected after some cosmetic changes in avionics to fill rapidly falling strength of IAF squadrons. what will it be called modernization or compromise ?

geopolitical compulsion

 

[Taygibay]

Rafale's performance in whatever Combat duties till now and then winning a gruelling MMRCA technical evaluation has given Dassault enough of credibility and advertising in International market for prospective customers (i can vaguely draw parallels between how similar situation helped UAC/Sukhoi sell Su 30 variants after India inducted them in massive numbers starting late 90s, early 2000s).

Nah mate; bad comparison there!

First and foremost, Dassault didn't lack credibility to begin with.
Ask anyone concerned with milavia.

Second, the room for improvements is worlds apart in the 2 cases.
India deeply changed the Su-30 with its requirements but that will
not be the case with Rafale.

The only thing worthy of mention will be if the AdlA buys the same
HMD / HMCS as India introduces on its birds.

Good day to you, Tay.

 

[illusion8]

According to Your reasoning, the 20 B2 bombers in USAF are totally useless.
If India enters a conflict with China, India need numbers, but those numbers does not have to be Rafale.

While Mirages, Jaguars and MiG-29s are beeing upgraded, it is a short term thing,
and they won't be around for a long time.

The reasoning behind the MII program seems to be to increase the numbers, with either Rafale
or another aircraft type, the others beeing F-16,F-18 and Gripen E.
It might be just a negotiating ploy vs France.
Speculation is useless, until the Indian Government comes out of the wardrobe.

Not a big fan of the f16, but the reasoning behind the MII is not what you mentioned.

MII is basically to make India a powerhouse in defense manufacturing. Dassault is sadly missing the point.

The whole deal is about economy, China is not a real threat, all their brouhaha withstanding..They aren't going to war with anyone. They have tasted capitalism and that's how they will operate. They very well know that they will be at the receiving end in ratings of any war with their numerous foes.

The choice of shifting the entire LM production line to India is a dubious one, but if MII in defense has to succeed..then that one thing will be a culmination of MII.

India sorely lacks advanced fighter manufacturing capabilities, F16's are being upgraded with the latest tech...case in point the F16 Block 70..though on a decades old frame.

Like you, I don't see much use of it being a single engined fighter..and I am not really sure how it will boost India's MII defence industry.

@hellfire your inputs please.

 

[Hellfire]

@illusion8

I was always projecting F-18 as a surprise entrant (Rafale being binned at 36, if at all), @Abingdonboy with Gripen(?) Rafale(?), @PARIKRAMA with Rafale only, @dadeechi with F-16 in addition to Rafale.

I have got confused who what. We will be upgrading Su-30, getting 36 Rafale (if at all and thats it) and put in a line for F-18 (Super Hornets) That shall cover immediate and longer requirement of a future super carrier for the navy (?).

IAF refused F-35, but as its kinks get ironed out, it just may make the cut if Russia drags its feet on FGFA.

AMCA ?

First lets have a prototype. Then we will discuss that


Oh thanks for the tag. We have @PARIKRAMA busy getting everything stitched and ready to be read... So I prefer watching and reading

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Not a big fan of the f16, but the reasoning behind the MII is not what you mentioned.

MII is basically to make India a powerhouse in defense manufacturing. Dassault is sadly missing the point.

The whole deal is about economy, China is not a real threat, all their brouhaha withstanding..They aren't going to war with anyone. They have tasted capitalism and that's how they will operate. They very well know that they will be at the receiving end in ratings of any war with their numerous foes.

The choice of shifting the entire LM production line to India is a dubious one, but if MII in defense has to succeed..then that one thing will be a culmination of MII.

India sorely lacks advanced fighter manufacturing capabilities, F16's are being upgraded with the latest tech...case in point the F16 Block 70..though on a decades old frame.

Like you, I don't see much use of it being a single engined fighter..and I am not really sure how it will boost India's MII defence industry.

@hellfire your inputs please.

It is pretty useless to have manufacturing capability for something noone wants.
F-16 & F-18 orders are drying up.
Maybe Canada for F-18 but they might want to take over the F-18 assembly line themselves,
If they go for it, assembly/support from India will not be an advantage to Canada.

Gripen E, Rafale, Typhoon, F-35 and Su-XX are what people are looking for on the world market.

Rafale negotiations on MII has not been successful, No F-35, and HAL already doing Su-30.
Leaves Gripen E and Typhoon, if you want a plane with a future.

If you want sole responsibility for maintaining stuff, then F-16/18 can still be valid.

Who is going to integrate Meteor support for F-16/18?
Are you going to pay LM/Boeing, or are you just going to use them for Rafale?

 

[surya kiran]

@PARIKRAMA Thankf or the tag as well as for the informative post.

It baffles me agaian and again when F-16 was rejected in the competition 7 years ago why the hell there are talk of setting up local production line then ? and that too in terms of US. As you have pointed out very clearly that you will be only assmebling kits thats all. All the technological transfer is hogwash, BS from US this is just to get inside their industry and mould it in a way so as to make war with china inevitable. There is no doubt that they will pump?boost the MIC of India to the point where it would be possible for India to go on a long sustained war campaign against China.

The cozying up of US to is not without reason and we all are well aware of the merits. This is just to giv the indian planners a confidence in their defense hardware that any war with China can be sustained thats all.

While in reality we all know how they will grab the customer by balls when MLU program comes after 30 years and f-16 will be pretty much obsolete by then and it will become next india mig 21

The difference lies in where the F-16 is being slotted now. In the earlier MMRCA, it was ousted as it was not seen as sufficient to meet operational requirements as laid down by both IAF and MoD.

Today, it is being offered as lower tier fighter. So it will work with the LCA as a tier below the Rafales. There is one production line of Tejas with HAL. Another is being planned with a private player. The F-16 will be the third line if it comes up.

Tier 1 - Su-30MKI --> PakFa
Tier 2 - Jags, Mig 27, Mirage 2000 --> Rafale and AMCA
Tier 3 - Tejas and being offered now F-16.

But, as of now there is no reason to believe the F-16 is going to come to India. They will have a much better time offering to setup the Apache or Chinook or UAV lines. in India..

 

[randomradio]

It is pretty useless to have manufacturing capability for something noone wants.

It depends on the extent of technology GE will provide for the ToT. If they give us 'everything', that's going to be a huge benefit. Engine tech is something we want.

Rafale negotiations on MII has not been successful,

Rafale MII negotiations have not begun yet. Only in FY 2017-18. We are studying all the offers right now, one or two jets will be chosen by March 2017.

The French have offered their M88 tech.

Leaves Gripen E and Typhoon, if you want a plane with a future.

If a combination of Gripen, LCA and AMCA gives us the F414 tech, we will go for Gripen. Typhoon has no chance.

 

[danger007]

Pentagon backs proposal to give US fighter jets ‘Make in India’ tag
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi

The Pentagon has backed proposals from US aviation giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin to manufacture top-line fighter aircraft as part of the ‘Make in India’ initiative. The proposals, including breakthrough offers on transfer of technology and licences, were conveyed by US defence secretary Ashton Carter to defence minister Manohar Parrikar last week.

Boeing’s offer is for the versatile F-18 twin-engine fighter while Lockheed Martin’s is for the single-engined F-16. Since every F-18 costs about $100 million and F-16s are close to the $70-million mark each, the proposal represents a very large investment. If either comes through, it will mean setting up of a production line, and will translate into a giant leap for the aviation sector in India.

Government sources said the US has also accepted an Indian non-paper on broader export controls in light of the latter being designated a major defence partner of Washington. The two sides also discussed sharing of sensitive data related to top-end defence technology and possible transfer of high-altitude long-duration drones for maritime surveillance.

The possible Indian acquisition of the battle-proven Predator drone was also discussed. “Defence minister Manohar Parrikar’s visit to the US had significant outcomes with Pentagon agreeing to work on the Indian non-paper for easier export controls,” said a senior official.

New Delhi is pleased with the Pentagon move, but the US departments of commerce and state will have to be partnered to make this happen as clearances on licences and transfer of technology lie within their ambit. “Since a major component of Grippen NG fighter, including the engine and the radar, are US, the latest developments show that there would be no obstacle from Washington on even transfer of technology for Swedish fighter. The Pentagon, however, understands that all these proposals will have to go through the competitive route,” said the official.

During his three-day US visit, Parrikar visited the Boeing Apache and Chinook helicopter factory in Philadelphia with the Indian Air Force (IAF) showing interest in the newly-developed KC-46 strategic tanker to augment the Indian mid-air refuelling tanker fleet.

The IAF’s requirement has been pegged at 126 multi-role fighters. This means at least 90 fighters are to be made in India as the remaining 36 will be Rafales, the deal for which is in the last lap. The IAF’s squadron strength has dwindled to 33, with the mandated strength being 42 squadrons of 18-20 planes each.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...n-india-tag/story-GYmjHZQc3oP5kBpGD03KwK.html

+++
Comments

• I have said time and again the prices are costly then all what has claimed here
• See for yourself
  • F16 Block 70/72- $70 Mn
  • F18 ~ $100 Mn
• When i have said Rafale is cheaper than F18 people did not believe much and when now its clear look at the cost of F16 as well to understand where we stand really
• I have said clearly here what F16 assembling line really contains and what Boeing line also gave as part of the package.
• Still look at the state of the affairs.
• The loaded Rafale is at $85 Mn and yet the options available in front is there for all to see.
• Predator point or Guardian B ER version i have said also again and again. That is still the prime aim

about KC 46 AAR

View attachment 331559
https://defence.pk/threads/india-cancels-deal-for-six-airbus-tankers.441923/page-4#post-8522050

• If this news is not yellow journalism, then its going to be a big suicide. Minimum 90 jets and a later follow on 45+ more will mean end of LCA program (future versions) for sure.
• It will also point out DM MP is saying one thing but in reality he does not have confidence on LCA at all and wants at double the price of the LCA , the F16 Blk 70/72 at $70 Mn
• WIth F18 costlier than Rafale in procurement, and it does not meet IAF and IN requirements and still if we go then again its a big mistake.
• Add to it the twist of competitive route meaning another evaluation and sheer time waste
• if either teen comes, its a nightmare for sure..
• Enjoy the whole facade...

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I still stick to my stance.. no F's please other than F 35... but i like C 130j or C 17 or P8 etc.. which is not possible.. but the offering platforms which is about to die soon without growth.. never mind..

I am waiting to know which plane turns out to the World's best plane now

On a serious note, @PARIKRAMA thanks for tagging me here. This really will be huge for India, no doubt about that. This is one of those countless indications of the geopolitical alliances shifting that i also have been talking about recently. The initial remark is not out of some hatred, it is just a reflection of how we people have the tendency of blowing things out of proportion. Trust me, you will also see that happening.

you mean just like Su 35 or CPEC new centre of the universe!

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

It depends on the extent of technology GE will provide for the ToT. If they give us 'everything', that's going to be a huge benefit. Engine tech is something we want.



Rafale MII negotiations have not begun yet. Only in FY 2017-18. We are studying all the offers right now, one or two jets will be chosen by March 2017.

The French have offered their M88 tech.



If a combination of Gripen, LCA and AMCA gives us the F414 tech, we will go for Gripen. Typhoon has no chance.

And the engine technology of LM is non-existent.
Name ONE engine manufactured by LM...

F-16/F-18/Gripen E have engines from General Electric, and there is no TOT on that,
regardless which of the 3 you chose.

So if you put up an assembly line for a fighter,
you still have to buy the engine, with maybe the M88 as the exception.

You also have to buy a lot of other expensive things from abroad.

 

[randomradio]

And the engine technology of LM is non-existent.
Name ONE engine manufactured by LM...

F-16/F-18/Gripen E have engines from General Electric, and there is no TOT on that,
regardless which of the 3 you chose.

The Americans have made two India-specific changes.
One is to give us preferential treatment in purchasing technology, the other is transferring technology.

http://sputniknews.com/military/20160626/1041988976/India-99-US-Defense-Technologies.html

According to a senior Obama administration official, "India [now] enjoys access to [defense] technologies that is on a par with [US] treaty allies. That is a very unique status. India is the only other country that enjoys that status outside [US] formal treaty allies."

The official estimated this access as "99 percent" of all US defense technologies available.

And they have changed their laws in dealing with engine tech transfers to India.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/adding-punch-to-defence-ties-with-india/169884.html

The US has told India it has changed its policy on gas turbine engine technology transfer to India, allowing technology to be shared with Indian companies and indicating a further cementing of defence ties between the two countries.

Transferring tech is a top priority between India and the US.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...hnology-top-priority-india-us-talks/76979974/

That's why France offered to match that.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...rt-kaveri-engine-for-tejas/article8819728.ece

 

[illusion8]

It is pretty useless to have manufacturing capability for something noone wants.
F-16 & F-18 orders are drying up.
Maybe Canada for F-18 but they might want to take over the F-18 assembly line themselves,
If they go for it, assembly/support from India will not be an advantage to Canada.

Gripen E, Rafale, Typhoon, F-35 and Su-XX are what people are looking for on the world market.

Rafale negotiations on MII has not been successful, No F-35, and HAL already doing Su-30.
Leaves Gripen E and Typhoon, if you want a plane with a future.

If you want sole responsibility for maintaining stuff, then F-16/18 can still be valid.

Who is going to integrate Meteor support for F-16/18?
Are you going to pay LM/Boeing, or are you just going to use them for Rafale?

I agree to your first part of it being an obsolete platform, and why would India want it's production line is also questionable.

F35 production line is overcrowded with dozens of companies already engaged in it, India was offered to be a part of it, but was refused from our end.

One argument could be that the top end F16's will still be a potent enough platform and could be an entry level to start production of more advanced fighters in collaboration with LM..The other argument could be that F16 can still be a decent enough replacement at low cost for our obsolete jets and for the desired air wings of the navy and the army.

One more argument - could be that India has started giving weapons to a number of countries for example Afghanistan, Burma, Vietnam , fighter jets could be a part of those packages..A watered down version possibly.


Whatever it is, l would like to know the reasoning.

 

[wiseone2]

I am waiting to know which plane turns out to the World's best plane now

On a serious note, @PARIKRAMA thanks for tagging me here. This really will be huge for India, no doubt about that. This is one of those countless indications of the geopolitical alliances shifting that i also have been talking about recently. The initial remark is not out of some hatred, it is just a reflection of how we people have the tendency of blowing things out of proportion. Trust me, you will also see that happening.

F-16 is not the world best fighter aircraft. But it is reliable, versatile and cost effective

If F-16(rejected 7 yrs ago) selected after some cosmetic changes in avionics to fill rapidly falling strength of IAF squadrons. what will it be called modernization or compromise ?

it is no brainer to get F-16 at $70 million versus $200+ million for Rafale

@PARIKRAMA Thankf or the tag as well as for the informative post.

It baffles me agaian and again when F-16 was rejected in the competition 7 years ago why the hell there are talk of setting up local production line then ? and that too in terms of US. As you have pointed out very clearly that you will be only assmebling kits thats all. All the technological transfer is hogwash, BS from US this is just to get inside their industry and mould it in a way so as to make war with china inevitable. There is no doubt that they will pump?boost the MIC of India to the point where it would be possible for India to go on a long sustained war campaign against China.

The cozying up of US to is not without reason and we all are well aware of the merits. This is just to giv the indian planners a confidence in their defense hardware that any war with China can be sustained thats all.

While in reality we all know how they will grab the customer by balls when MLU program comes after 30 years and f-16 will be pretty much obsolete by then and it will become next india mig 21

The F-16 was rejected for political reasons in 2009. IMO the Americans are unreliable. But if they offer a great deal I say take it and worry about the ramifications laters