Paris Air Show 2019 - Thunders in Europe

[graphican]

JF-17 Thunder Paris Airshow, second day's video - daily motion link. HD

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Very nice flying display.

the landing gear still lingers on longer than it should to my novice eyes. although I do see few seconds improvement over the follow up displays since the first one came out
you agree?

The most interesting and rather appreciable quality of the display is that unlike the display of many jets; there was little time spent on "setting up" one manoeuvre after the other. It was very fluid and almost as if the aircraft has no trouble at all hopping from one manoeuvre to the other. This is something that will go a long way with customers.

I agree,
very nicely choreographed, very little idle time . in the latest video .. what impressed me is that the plane had enough energy and power to enter into a steep climb right after completing a big loop. there are many impressive moves but this one was nice
let me find the time stamp and I will edit my video to show what I mean

0:04:50 to 0:05:00

Pakistan Air Force’s JF 17 Thunder performance at paris air show - YouTube

Hi,

They did---they did----

you sure? my few minutes experience tells me they can still shave off few more seconds

 

[araz]

the landing gear still lingers on longer than it should to my novice eyes. although I do see few seconds improvement over the follow up displays since the first one came out
you agree?


I agree,
very nicely choreographed, very little idle time . in the latest video .. what impressed me is that the plane had enough energy and power to enter into a steep climb right after completing a big loop. there are many impressive moves but this one was nice
let me find the time stamp and I will edit my video to show what I mean

0:04:50 to 0:05:00

Pakistan Air Force’s JF 17 Thunder performance at paris air show - YouTube


you sure? my few minutes experience tells me they can still shave off few more seconds

Agreed.
There was the hi alpha maneuver which everyone was bleating about JFT not having done one and the vertical climb. Interesting tidbit is there seems to be a better Russian engine on the way????? When and where did this come about. The commentator would not just say so without a feed from some source. Any takers on that?
Araz

 

[VCheng]

Agreed.
There was the hi alpha maneuver which everyone was bleating about JFT not having done one and the vertical climb. Interesting tidbit is there seems to be a better Russian engine on the way????? When and where did this come about. The commentator would not just say so without a feed from some source. Any takers on that?
Araz

Isn't that short vertical pullup after takeoff over as soon as the speed bleeds off?

 

[Arsalan]

the landing gear still lingers on longer than it should to my novice eyes. although I do see few seconds improvement over the follow up displays since the first one came out
you agree?


I agree,
very nicely choreographed, very little idle time . in the latest video .. what impressed me is that the plane had enough energy and power to enter into a steep climb right after completing a big loop. there are many impressive moves but this one was nice
let me find the time stamp and I will edit my video to show what I mean

0:04:50 to 0:05:00

Pakistan Air Force’s JF 17 Thunder performance at paris air show - YouTube


you sure? my few minutes experience tells me they can still shave off few more seconds

The landing gears remained out for significantly longer period of time on the Day 2 demonstration flight compared to the Day - 1. Perhaps it have nothing to do with the demo, just something being overlooked! The first vid that came, one from Before the actual show began or the rehearsal vid you can say was the when in which the gear was out like forever!

 

[araz]

Isn't that short vertical pullup after takeoff over as soon as the speed bleeds off?

It looked a bit too smooth to be a necessity. To my inexpert eye it looked pretty intentional or nicely done to hide a slight deficiency. However you believe, I don't have an answer to that. The fact that they are looking at a better engine(less smoke and perhaps more power) means they are aware of the problem. However from PAF's perspective this is an improvement by a mile from the legacy fighter and improvements can slowly be made. It is a pity we did not negotiate for the M2K assembly line in 2002. It would have been a coup de grace if we had managed to secure it with M88 2 engine or a promise for it on our M2K.However better slow than never we will get there eventually in the next 2-3 yrs.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

It looked a bit too smooth to be a necessity. To my inexpert eye it looked pretty intentional or nicely done to hide a slight deficiency. However you believe, I don't have an answer to that. The fact that they are looking at a better engine(less smoke and perhaps more power) means they are aware of the problem. However from PAF's perspective this is an improvement by a mile from the legacy fighter and improvements can slowly be made. It is a pity we did not negotiate for the M2K assembly line in 2002. It would have been a coup de grace if we had managed to secure it with M88 2 engine or a promise for it on our M2K.However better slow than never we will get there eventually in the next 2-3 yrs.
Araz

I will agree with you that the platform is maturing nicely, and a better engine will be a big boost in that development. Right now, with the engine that it has, that was a very good performance making the most of the abilities offered.

 

[Donatello]

Interesting revelations.......Pakistan has displayed the short range C704 anti ship missile, CM102 Anti radiation missile and a new KG600 EW pod.

 

[Dazzler]

Agreed.
There was the hi alpha maneuver which everyone was bleating about JFT not having done one and the vertical climb. Interesting tidbit is there seems to be a better Russian engine on the way????? When and where did this come about. The commentator would not just say so without a feed from some source. Any takers on that?
Araz

Rd-93MA is being developed and tested on one prototype in China for a while. Rated output is between 93-97kt.

 

[araz]

Rd-93MA is being developed and tested on one prototype in China for a while. Rated output is between 93-97kt.

I thought it was not ready till 2018 and the thrust was 100Kt. If I have understood the news properly the engine currently under test in China is the WS13. Please check and let me know.
Araz

 

[Dazzler]

I thought it was not ready till 2018 and the thrust was 100Kt. If I have understood the news properly the engine currently under test in China is the WS13. Please check and let me know.
Araz

On the left with black nozzel is 93MA, on the right is ws-13 with two tone petalled nozzle. Both are being tested at gizhou facility in China since a while

 

[araz]

On the left with black nozzel is 93MA, on the right is ws-13 with two tone petalled nozzle. Both are being tested at gizhou facility in China since a while

Thank you for the update Dazzler. Indeed the Chinese aviation industry is maturing and with it we will see a lot more happening which we could not have dreamt of. Like setting WS13 against RD93MA and testing the performance and then the negotiations.
Araz

 

[Windjammer]

• Air Platforms
  Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan
  Richard D Fisher Jr, Paris - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
• 17 June 2015

• Chinese officials have confirmed that a new indigenous engine is being flight tested for the JF-17, seen here at Paris Air Show on 15 June. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen

• Chinese officials at the Paris Air Show have said flight-testing of a new indigenous engine for the JF-17
• Thunder is under way
• Officials also confirmed that the Sino-Pakistani-developed aircraft had achieved its first international sale, although they did not disclose the customer

A senior Chinese aviation official has revealed that the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation FC-1/JF-17 fighter co-developed with Pakistan has been test-flown with a new Chinese medium-thrust turbofan engine.

Li Yuhai, an executive vice president with the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC), told IHS Jane's at the Paris Airshow that a new Chinese turbofan for the J-17 has been "under testing," has completed "lab tests", and that "flight testing is in progress". He also said that the new engine would have a thrust slightly greater than the 8.7-ton thrust of the JF-17's current Klimov RD-93 turbofan.

At a joint Sino-Pakistani press conference on 15 June, Li also said progress was being made on the twin-seat version of the JF 17.

Pakistani sources at Paris confirmed that a JF-17 has been flying with the new Chinese turbofan, which could be revealed publicly "very soon". There is a suggestion the engine could be named 'WS-17' to complement the JF-17b, but officials did not provide any further performance indicators.

One Chinese medium-thrust turbofan programme long reported as slated for the FC-1/JF-17 has been called the WS-13 and reportedly flew in 2010. It has been developed with help from Russia's Klimov and is reportedly based on its RD-33 turbofan.

While previous reports mentioned development difficulties with the WS-13, the willingness of Chinese officials to talk publicly about this engine suggests a higher level of confidence in its prospects.

At the 2008 Airshow China in Zhuhai the Chengdu Gas Turbine Research Institute revealed it was developing a 9.5 ton-thrust turbofan and showed a possible model at the same show. It is not known if this is the engine that is now being test flown on a JF-17.

Despite the news of the new engine testing, Pakistani officials at Paris said they remain satisfied with the Klimov RD-93. In 2010 China obtained a Russian commitment to meet a potential requirement of up to 500 RD-93 engines to support the JF-17 programme. This figure would support Pakistan's requirements for up to 275 JF-17s plus international exports.

A Pakistani official also confirmed reports that the first export contract for the JF-17 has been signed. The official would only say that the contract had been signed in the first half of 2015 but would not name the customer.

Pakistani officials say they are having "serious" discussions with 11 countries, including Argentina, which a source confirmed is interested in co-producing the JF-17.

In its first appearance at Paris, the JF-17 is also accompanied by two new weapon options. One is the C-705KD missile, an IIR/TV-guided ground-attack version of the 140-170 km-range C-705 that was revealed at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow. A Pakistani source said up to four C-705KDs could be carried by the JF-17.

The second new weapon displayed with the JF-17 for the first time is the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) CM-102 anti-radiation missile. Revealed at the 2014 Zhuhai show, it has an advertised range of 100 km. A Pakistani source noted that other versions could have 50% to 70% further range.

Making its second international appearance was the CASIC CM-400AKG Mach-5 speed ground attack missile. A Pakistani official noted it did not have "passive" guidance, which might enable attacks against mobile targets such as ships, but has inertial navigational system/GPS guidance for attacking fixed targets.

Asked whether the CM-400AKG was in Pakistani service an official responded with a pointed "no comment".

Pakistan has produced 50 Block 1 versions of the JF-17 and has started production of 50 Block 2 versions. Officials said that discussions are underway with China for a Block 3 version that will include an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that is being developed by the Nanjing Research of Electronic Technology (NRIST).

Pakistani officials noted it could be based on NRIST's AESA radar developed for the Chengdu J-10B fighter but would not confirm any relation between the two systems. The Block 3 JF-17 will also incorporate a helmet-mounted display and a possible internal infrared search and tracking (IRST) system.
@Oscar @araz @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @Horus @Dazzler

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

On the left with black nozzel is 93MA, on the right is ws-13 with two tone petalled nozzle. Both are being tested at gizhou facility in China since a while

JF-17B would have a french engine...is there any further development on this project as well?

• Air Platforms
  Paris Air Show 2015: JF-17 fighter flying with indigenous Chinese turbofan
  Richard D Fisher Jr, Paris - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
• 17 June 2015

• Chinese officials have confirmed that a new indigenous engine is being flight tested for the JF-17, seen here at Paris Air Show on 15 June. Source: IHS/Patrick Allen

• Chinese officials at the Paris Air Show have said flight-testing of a new indigenous engine for the JF-17
• Thunder is under way
• Officials also confirmed that the Sino-Pakistani-developed aircraft had achieved its first international sale, although they did not disclose the customer

A senior Chinese aviation official has revealed that the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation FC-1/JF-17 fighter co-developed with Pakistan has been test-flown with a new Chinese medium-thrust turbofan engine.

Li Yuhai, an executive vice president with the Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC), told IHS Jane's at the Paris Airshow that a new Chinese turbofan for the J-17 has been "under testing," has completed "lab tests", and that "flight testing is in progress". He also said that the new engine would have a thrust slightly greater than the 8.7-ton thrust of the JF-17's current Klimov RD-93 turbofan.

At a joint Sino-Pakistani press conference on 15 June, Li also said progress was being made on the twin-seat version of the JF 17.

Pakistani sources at Paris confirmed that a JF-17 has been flying with the new Chinese turbofan, which could be revealed publicly "very soon". There is a suggestion the engine could be named 'WS-17' to complement the JF-17b, but officials did not provide any further performance indicators.

One Chinese medium-thrust turbofan programme long reported as slated for the FC-1/JF-17 has been called the WS-13 and reportedly flew in 2010. It has been developed with help from Russia's Klimov and is reportedly based on its RD-33 turbofan.

While previous reports mentioned development difficulties with the WS-13, the willingness of Chinese officials to talk publicly about this engine suggests a higher level of confidence in its prospects.

At the 2008 Airshow China in Zhuhai the Chengdu Gas Turbine Research Institute revealed it was developing a 9.5 ton-thrust turbofan and showed a possible model at the same show. It is not known if this is the engine that is now being test flown on a JF-17.

Despite the news of the new engine testing, Pakistani officials at Paris said they remain satisfied with the Klimov RD-93. In 2010 China obtained a Russian commitment to meet a potential requirement of up to 500 RD-93 engines to support the JF-17 programme. This figure would support Pakistan's requirements for up to 275 JF-17s plus international exports.

A Pakistani official also confirmed reports that the first export contract for the JF-17 has been signed. The official would only say that the contract had been signed in the first half of 2015 but would not name the customer.

Pakistani officials say they are having "serious" discussions with 11 countries, including Argentina, which a source confirmed is interested in co-producing the JF-17.

In its first appearance at Paris, the JF-17 is also accompanied by two new weapon options. One is the C-705KD missile, an IIR/TV-guided ground-attack version of the 140-170 km-range C-705 that was revealed at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow. A Pakistani source said up to four C-705KDs could be carried by the JF-17.

The second new weapon displayed with the JF-17 for the first time is the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation (CASIC) CM-102 anti-radiation missile. Revealed at the 2014 Zhuhai show, it has an advertised range of 100 km. A Pakistani source noted that other versions could have 50% to 70% further range.

Making its second international appearance was the CASIC CM-400AKG Mach-5 speed ground attack missile. A Pakistani official noted it did not have "passive" guidance, which might enable attacks against mobile targets such as ships, but has inertial navigational system/GPS guidance for attacking fixed targets.

Asked whether the CM-400AKG was in Pakistani service an official responded with a pointed "no comment".

Pakistan has produced 50 Block 1 versions of the JF-17 and has started production of 50 Block 2 versions. Officials said that discussions are underway with China for a Block 3 version that will include an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that is being developed by the Nanjing Research of Electronic Technology (NRIST).

Pakistani officials noted it could be based on NRIST's AESA radar developed for the Chengdu J-10B fighter but would not confirm any relation between the two systems. The Block 3 JF-17 will also incorporate a helmet-mounted display and a possible internal infrared search and tracking (IRST) system.
@Oscar @araz @MastanKhan @Irfan Baloch @Horus @Dazzler

@gambit
This could be the reason that the aircraft had enough thrust to fly with the landing gear extended for an extended time as PAF would have tried to show that the JF-17 can still climb with a maximum drag.

 

[Windjammer]