Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Quwa]

Pakistani officials would have little business visiting HDW's submarine if there wasn't much going on...they visited facilities in Saab and Chengdu upon the time Erieye Horizon and JF-17 were ordered.

 

[ejaz007]

Yes indeed his visit is more than ceremonial. Defense news is also reporting that the deal might be announced during IDEAS 2008.

 

[blain2]

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs only makes a visit when something big has to be decided between the services and usually its the allocation of funding and its distribution. The fact that the current CJCSC is an Army officer and he is inspecting Submarine production at HDW means that he needs to give his go ahead to the GoP on this issue. Once the GoP receives the go ahead from the CJCSC, then it knows that all issues pertaining to financing of such a big ticket item have been ironed out between the sister services (or the other two have been told to lump it by the CJCSC ).

In either case, if this visit was that of the PN CNS, then I would say its still exploratory, however when the CJCSC is going then he is representing the GOP as their top military point man. What he says now makes or breaks the deal.

 

[fatman17]

^^^hope you guys are right because today the govt. has announced it is proposing a Rs, 30 bill reduction in defence allocations (~US 300m). in one of my posts on the IMF deal i had indicated that for the next 3-5 years, defence allocations will be curtailed by ~US 250m / year. so lets keep the fingers crossed!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

^^^hope you guys are right because today the govt. has announced it is proposing a Rs, 30 bill reduction in defence allocations (~US 300m). in one of my posts on the IMF deal i had indicated that for the next 3-5 years, defence allocations will be curtailed by ~US 250m / year. so lets keep the fingers crossed!

don't worry, the deal was done a long time ago. German military officials have been visiting Pakistan for the past few months, and Blain is right, if the Tariq Majeed is there, the deal is going to go ahead.

sources on pakdef saw this much earlier. I was quite skeptical about it too, considering funding and all, but the deal is going ahead. The navy has already set the funds aside, besides the defense budget does not take large military acquisitions into consideration, it's more like for maintaining the forces. However, it does show up on the defense expediture.

 

[ejaz007]

This deal was planned before the present financial crisis and normally budget for such type of purchases are allocated separately. Therefore this deal won't be affected by the crisis.

We should also remember that the largest bill Pakistan has to bear annualy is the import bill of oil. The cost of oil has dropped from around 140 dollars a barrel to 55 dollars a barrel therefore the severity of the crisis has diminished to some extent. The financial crisis though serious is not going to remain as serious as thought earlier and hopefully by around January 2009 things would beging to fall in line.

Also the recent action against hundi/hawala will also encourage people to send foreign exchange through legal process and this will further improve the situation.

 

[fatman17]

don't worry, the deal was done a long time ago. German military officials have been visiting Pakistan for the past few months, and Blain is right, if the Tariq Majeed is there, the deal is going to go ahead.

sources on pakdef saw this much earlier. I was quite skeptical about it too, considering funding and all, but the deal is going ahead. The navy has already set the funds aside, besides the defense budget does not take large military acquisitions into consideration, it's more like for maintaining the forces. However, it does show up on the defense expediture.

getting a deal done and finding funds are seperate issues in my opinion. its too early to show this confidence. a lot can happen between the lip and the cup. i hope it goes through but things are not very clear!

 

[fatman17]

don't worry, the deal was done a long time ago. German military officials have been visiting Pakistan for the past few months, and Blain is right, if the Tariq Majeed is there, the deal is going to go ahead.

sources on pakdef saw this much earlier. I was quite skeptical about it too, considering funding and all, but the deal is going ahead. The navy has already set the funds aside, besides the defense budget does not take large military acquisitions into consideration, it's more like for maintaining the forces. However, it does show up on the defense expediture.

are u sure mate. acquisitions are not part of the defence budget but show up on the defence expenditure. contradiction in terms.

 

[SSGPA1]

Here is a link with details of U212/U214:

U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology

Hyundai Heavy Industries is building this boat for the Koreans ... I wish we could procure these from the Koreans.

 

[Super Falcon]

Key Data
Crew27 (including five officers)Torpedoessix 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoesCombat Data SyetemBasic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)ESMEADS FL1800UDecoysTAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures systemRadarKelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radarSonarSTN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonarFull specifications
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The U212 submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation. The German Navy has ordered four of the submarines.

The Type 212 is being constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) of Kiel and Thyssen Nordseewerke GmbH (TNSW) of Enden. HDW is responsible for the bow sections and TNSW for the stern section. HDW is assembling the first and third vessels, TNSW the second and fourth. U31, the first of class, was launched in March 2002 and commissioned in October 2005.

Article Continues
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The second, U32, was launched in December 2003 and was also commissioned in October 2005. The third, U33, was launched in September 2004 and commissioned in June 2006. U34 was launched in July 2005 and commissioned in May 2007.

"The U212 attack submarine is capable of long-distance submerged passage to the area of operation."In September 2006, the German Navy ordered two further U212 submarines, to be delivered in 2012/2013. The new vessels will have improved network-centric communications, combat system and sensors. Construction of the first vessel began in August 2007.

Two U212 submarines have been built by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy The first, S526 Salvatore Todaro, was launched in November 2003 and was commissioned in June 2005. The second, Scire, was launched in December 2004 and was commissioned in February 2007.

In March 2008, the Italian government approved the procurement of an additional two submarines of the class.

Command and weapons control system

The Type 212 is equipped with a highly integrated command and weapons control system which interfaces with sensors, weapons and navigation system. The system is based on a high-performance databus and a distributed computer system, the basic command and weapons control system (basic CWCS) supplied by Konsberg Defence & Aerospace of Norway under the trade name MSI-90U.

The second batch of two vessels for the German Navy will be fitted with the Callisto B submarine communication system supplied by Gabler Maschinenbau.

Torpedoes

There are six torpedo tubes in two groups of three. Type 212 is equipped with a water ram expulsion system for torpedo launch. The submarine is equipped with the DM2A4 heavyweight torpedo weapon system from Atlas Elektronik.

U33 of the German Navy is the platform for a series of flight tests of the fibre-optic guided IDAS submarine-launched missile, being developed by Diehl BGT Defence, HDW and Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace. In June 2008, the IDAS missile, designed to protect against anti-submarine helicopters, was successfully launched from the torpedo tubes of the submerged U33 submarine.

Countermeasures

EADS Systems & Defence Electronics and Thales Defence Ltd have been awarded a contract to develop the FL1800U electronic warfare system for the German and Italian Navies' U212 submarines. The 1800U is a submarine version of the FL1800 S-II which is in service on the Brandenburg and Bremen Class frigates.

A consortium lead by ATLAS Elektronik and ELAC are responsible for the development of the TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system. TAU 2000 has four launch containers, each with up to ten discharge tubes equipped with effectors.

"There are six torpedo tubes on the U212."The effectors are small underwater vehicles, similar in appearance to a torpedo. The effectors are jammers and decoys with hydrophones and acoustic emitters. Multiple effectors are deployed in order to counter torpedoes in re-attack mode.

Sensors

The submarine is equipped with an integrated DBQS sonar system which has: cylindrical array for passive medium-frequency detection; a TAS-3 low-frequency towed array sonar; FAS-3 flank array sonar for low / medium-frequency detection; passive ranging sonar; and hostile sonar intercept system. The active high-frequency mine detection sonar is the Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070.

The search periscope is the Zeiss Optronik SERO 14 with optical rangefinder, thermal imager and global positioning system. The Zeiss SERO 15 attack periscope is equipped with laser rangefinder.

Propulsion

The propulsion system combines a conventional system consisting of a diesel generator with a lead acid battery, and an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, used for silent slow cruising, with a fuel cell equipped with oxygen and hydrogen storage. The system consists of nine PEM (polymer electrolyte membrane) fuel cells, providing between 30kW and 50kW each.

For higher speeds, connection is made to the high-performance lead acid battery. An MTU 16V-396 diesel engine powers the generator from Piller GmbH for charging the battery installed on the lower of the two decks at the forward section of the submarine.

"The 214 submarine is a further improvement on the Type 212."The diesel generator plant is mounted on a swinging deck platform with double elastic mounts for noise and vibration isolation. The propeller motor is directly coupled to the seven-bladed screwback propeller.

Type 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212.

The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. As of April 2008, the Greek government has refused to accept delivery of the vessel and a commissioning date is uncertain.

The Hellenic Shipyards is building the second (Pipinos S121, launched November 2006) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW (now part of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123) was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2012.

South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006 and commissioned in December 2007. The second, Jung Ji, was launched in June 2007 and is to be delivered in November 2008. The third, Ahn Jung-geun, was launched in June 2008 and will be commissioned in November 2009. The submarines will form the KSS2 Class. An additional three submarines may be ordered.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks.

A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The integrated sensor underwater system ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.

 

[Super Falcon]

The Scorpene submarine has been jointly developed by DCNS of France (formerly DCN) and Navantia (formerly Bazan, then Izar) of Spain. Two Scorpene submarines were ordered by Chile. The vessels replace two Oberon Class submarines which were retired in 1998 and 2003.

"The SSK Scorpene attack submarine is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability."The first, O'Higgins, built at DCN shipyard in Cherbourg, was launched in November 2003 and commissioned in September 2005. It arrived in Chile in January 2006. The second, Carrera, built at the Cartagena shipyard of Navantia in Spain was launched in November 2004 and commissioned in July 2006. Carrera arrived at its homeport of Talcahuano in December 2006.

The Royal Malaysian Navy placed a contract for two Scorpene submarines in June 2002. The first vessel, KD Tunku Abdul Rahman, was launched at DCNS Cherbourg in October 2007 and is scheduled to be commissioned in January 2009. The second, Tun Razak, is scheduled to be launched at Navantia Cartagena in October 2008 and to commission in October 2009. DCNS is building the bow sections, Navantia the aft sections.

In October 2005, India placed an order for six Scorpene submarines. The submarines will be built at the state-owned Mazagon dockyard in Bombay, with technical assistance and equipment from French companies DCN and Thales. At the same time, India also placed an order for 36 MBDA SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles to arm the submarines. Construction of the first vessel began in December 2006 and is scheduled to be delivered in December 2012. One submarine will be delivered each year until 2017.

Scorpene for the Chilean Navy
The 1,500t Scorpene built for the Chilean Navy has a length of 66.4m. The two vessels are powered by four diesel generators providing more than 2,500kW using GM synchronous motors with permanent magnets.

The Chilean Scorpene will have a hull-mounted medium-frequency active / passive sonar. The vessels are armed with WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery. Black Shark will also arm the two Scorpene vessels for the Royal Malaysian Navy.

The six torpedo tubes will be capable of firing SM-39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, which have a range of 50km, but they will not initially be carried. The vessels will be equipped with EDO Reconnaissance Systems AR-900 electronic support measures/direction-finding (ESM/DF) system.

Weapons systems
Scorpene is equipped with six bow-located 21in torpedo tubes providing salvo launch capability. Positive discharge launching is by an air turbine pump.

"Handling and loading of weapons is automated."The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles.

18 torpedoes and missiles or 30 mines can be carried by the Scorpene attack submarine. The handling and loading of weapons is automated.

SUBTICS combat management system
The SUBTICS combat management system, with up to six multifunction common consoles and a centrally situated tactical table, is collocated with the platform-control facilities.

The combat management system is composed of a command and tactical data handling system, a weapon control system and an integrated suite of acoustic sensors with an interface to a set of air surface detection sensors and to the integrated navigation system. The system can also download data from external sources.

The integrated navigation system combines data from global positioning systems, the log, depth measurement and the ship's trim / list monitoring system. The Scorpene monitors the environment including seawater density and temperature and the submarine's own noise signature.

Sonar suite
The vessel's sonar suite includes a long-range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, a high-resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance and a towed array.

Control and monitoring
All submarine handling operations are carried out from the control room. The vessel features a high level of automation and surveillance, with automatic control mode of rudders and propulsion, continuous monitoring of the propulsion systems and platform installations, centralised and continuous surveillance of all potential hazards (leaks, fires, presence of gases) and the status of the installations that affect the safety while submerged.

"The submarine's weapons include anti-ship and anti-submarine torpedoes and anti-surface missiles."Construction
The submarine incorporates a high level of system redundancy to achieve an average 240 days at sea a year for each submarine. The maximum diving depth is 300m, giving the commander more tactical freedom than previously available on conventional submarines. There is no limit to the duration of dives at a maximum depth, other than the power systems and crew limitations.

The structure of the submarine uses high-yield stress-specific steel which allows for as many dives to maximum depth as necessary.

The use of high-tensile steels has reduced the weight of the pressure hull, allowing a larger load of fuel and ammunition. The reduced complement minimises training costs and increase combat efficiency by making more space, while a larger payload enhances the ship's autonomy.

When dived the Scorpene has low radiated noise which permits improved detection ranges of its own sensors and reduced risk of detection by hostile sensors. The low radiated noise is achieved through the use of advanced hydrodynamics with an albacore bow shape, with fewer appendages and an optimised propeller.

Between the suspended decks, the equipment is mounted on elastic mountings wherever possible, and the noisiest systems have a double-elastic mounting to reduce the risk of their noise profiles being radiated outside the submarine. The shock-resistant systems have been developed from systems incorporated in advanced nuclear-powered submarine designs.

The low acoustic signature and hydrodynamic shock resistance give the Scorpene class the capability to carry out anti-submarine and anti-surface ship warfare operations in closed or open sea conditions, as well as the capability of working with special forces in coastal waters.

Crew facilities
The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine. The control room and the living quarters are mounted on an elastically supported and acoustically isolated floating platform. All living and operational areas are air-conditioned. The submarine also has space for six additional fold-down bunks for special operations crew.

"The ship can hold a total company of 31 men with a standard watch team of nine."The vessel is equipped with all the necessary systems to provide vital supplies, water, provisions, regeneration of the atmosphere, to ensure the survival of all the crew for seven days.

The ship is equipped with full rescue and safety systems. A connection point for a diving bell or deep submergence rescue vehicle (DSRV) allows collective rescue operations.

Stealth design
The planning and design of the Scorpene was directed towards achieving an extremely quiet vessel with a great detection capability and offensive power.

The forms of the hull, the sail and the appendages have been specifically designed to produce minimum hydrodynamic noise. The various items of equipment are mounted on elastic supports, which are in turn mounted on uncoupled blocks and suspended platforms. The isolation also provides better shock protection to the equipment.

Propulsion systems
The Scorpene has two diesel generation sets providing 1,250kW of power. At the top of the hull immediately above the diesel generator sets is a Dutch Breach machinery shipping hatch. The submarine has an elastically supported 2,900kW electronic engine.

There are two variants of Scorpene, the CM-2000 with the conventional propulsion system and the AM-2000 equipped with air independent propulsion. The AM-2000 is capable of remaining submerged on underwater patrol for three times longer than the CM-2000.

Air independent propulsion
A conventional diesel-electrical submarine sailing underwater is difficult to detect. However the need to come repeatedly to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine greatly increases vulnerability by:

Its aerial detectability, since the snorkel projecting from the water is detectable by radar
Its underwater detectability due to increase in radiated noise from the working diesels
The ratio between this time of greater vulnerability and the total operating time is known as the "indiscretion rate" and for all conventional modem submarines the indiscretion ratio ranges typically from 7% to 10% on patrol at 4kt, and 20% to 30% in transit at about 8kt.

"To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, Scorpene can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system."To lessen the submarine's vulnerability, the vessel can be equipped with an air independent propulsion system such as: the Stirling engine, the fuel cell, the closed circuit diesel and the module d'energie sous-marine autonome (MESMA) system .

The MESMA anaerobic system, in which heat in the primary circuit is produced by burning ethanol with oxygen, can be easily installed either at the start of the submarine's construction or in a later modernisation to convert the CM-2000 to an AM-2000 build standard.

With the MESMA system the AM-2000 submarine can stay down on underwater patrol three times longer than the CM-2000.

Its performance features remain the same in all other respects, except that the length increases to 70m and its submerged displacement to 1.870t (against the 61.7m and the 1,565t of the CM2000

 

[Super Falcon]

dicide by yourself which is better i have one question for you historically who is better in manufacturing a state of the art Army, Naval, Airforce Equipment

German Or French who is better

 

[Nutuk]

To decide which is the best one has to look also in the field of application. Each country has different problems, the enemy to counter, the depth of surrounding waters where the sub shall operate etc. etc. So to say boldly the Scorpene is better than U214 or the other way arround is walking on thin ice.

Let me give an example why Turkey chose the U214. First of all Turkey wants to customize the submarine as much as possible for her own needs, HDW of Germany agreed to knowhow transfer and the installation of various indigenous Turkish subsystems. Secondly the U214 can reach depths of 400m (out of reach for most enemy ships) and the adversery of Turkey Greece does also operate the U214. Now the nice thing is that Turkey is building her own dedicated submarine hunting corvette 'Milgem', combine that with the knowhow of the U214 we can make the Milgem the ultimate submarine hunter.

IMO the reason why Pakistan has chosen the U214 is Turkey, the close cooperation, joint development projects giving Pakistan also the oportunity to customize these subs and appearantly news goes around that Pakistan has also chosen Milgem corvettes.

So to recap, Pakistan is doing like Turkey and does not go for sepparate submarines but decided to go for a combined submarine/submarine hunter force namely U214 customized / Milgem combination. Future naval warfare cannot affort standalone units, battlefield integration is a must, different type of units must work together to gain an edge against the enemy. And another point is that Milgem is the replacement for the Perry frigates, guess what path Pakistan is following -> Perry frigates and Milgem

 

[ahussains]

Thats sounds Intresting NUTUK ... They had to work fast on this project 1st sub must be assmebled in Pakistan in 2 years or sooo ..