Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

P2BP:

Even if it takes longer for Pakistan to absorb the technology, it makes sense to go with the Germans, because at the end of the day you obtain better technology and a better system. I would have to agree with Araz, the infrastructure Pakistan has for the French subs is limited to "assembling" modules and different subsystems - if it were the case that we had absorbed French technology to the point where we were indigenously producing several of the subsystems as well as the final assembly, I might agree that the French sub was the way to go. But at this point it seems that the only issue with moving to the Germans is retooling of the existing facilities and retraining on different subsystems. I would argue that since one would want the PN to move towards more advanced systems, such retooling and retraining would end up occurring later anyway. Therefore might as well start now.

 

[irfan1173]

AoA
P2BP there is a difference in TOT and license manufacturing. The most important thing we learnt from French is as araz pointed out is welding. The rest of the major components were imported as is and integrated in pakistan. More or less same thing will happen with germans. The goal whether french or german is to give you screw driver level technology and reduce cost by assembling the submarine in pakistan and not to make you self sufficient in building submarines. This is standard world over and not pakistan specific. All the high tech stuff like sonars, battle mgmt system,propulsion etc are all imported.
So in a nutshell we havent learnt a whole lot from french that we will lose by shifting to germans. Not sure though but the welding techniques may be same with germans and learning curve over all will be much less .

 

[waz]

WAZ ..

No one is saying U-214 is a bad choice.

Its is a better one... but when you have to choose for the requirements as per ground conditions then you see that what is a better option and that is only french. Mind it that if Paksitan Chooses German Sub then your Submarine Building techs will be getting started all over again for german tech since they know jack about it. I know that their working procedures are a lot different from French and you will end up getting to self reliance in 10 years.

You expand your tech Infrustructure ones you have grasped all the aspects of the present tech which we have not done yet in case of DCN.

And please!

If you are comparing French Submarines with Germans then i can only say that you are ill informed in regard of Submarines.

Brother Pakistan’s naval doctrine has changed from a purely defensive posture to a force that will have offensive capabilities. The Agosta submarines were littoral water sub’s and with that in mind the naval brass wanted to go that one step further. The proposal by DCN for their Marlin didn’t fit their requirements hence was rejected. Yes we have infrastructure etc. But what good is that if we just go for another vessel that doesn’t give us that great a deal exposure to the latest advancements in submerged vessels?

You say in the later part of your post that people are misinformed for comparing submarines, but then talk about how completely different the technology is for the two vessels, where previously you stated that it is more of less the same with a 5% difference. Base production techniques surrounding construction are more or less similar like Pipe Manufacturing, cable production, ballast panel manufacture for ballast tanks, steel cutting. Sophisticated sensors were bought in by the French delegation that was always present during the building of the submarines. All that would happen is a switch i.e. HDW will utilise our experience with the previous Agosta vessel and send their expert teams in to aid us with the 214 construction. This will ensure a smooth run hopefully.

As for “grasping the entire present technology”, the answer to this was already provided by the two posters as we have reached our limits with the present set up. Apart from producing more Agosta’s what more can we do? As I said before the more complex aspects [sensor suites] were bought in by the French and not something which were or are indigenously produced by us. Yes we have learnt from it but it is time to move on.

As for calling me “misinformed”. Brother you said yourself that the 214 is a better choice, so hence you have made a comparison to come to that conclusion.
I gave you brief breakdown between the two vessels then went on with a technical breakdown of the two AIP systems which doesn’t come from misinformed people. Naval experts from across the board have also compared the capabilities of various vessels and their subsystems .A great deal of literature has been written by respected people such as John Morgan Captain U.S. Navy,John Keller Editor in Chief of Military & Aerospace Electronics, Norman Polmar writer for the Naval Institute Press and others on the various AIP equipped vessels and their developing capabilities. The US Navy itself organized exercises against various ASW vessels [Gotland/Collins classes] to gauge their effectiveness. If you are referring to your earlier point you made a few posts back where people lambaste the French submarines and see the German vessels as the true savior then I understand that but that is not I was talking about. I have nothing but praise for DCN and the vessels we have now.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Just to ADD...

Agno, Araz and Waz..

Just to put some light on Infrustructure of PN for DCN subs, the MESMA on both 2nd and 3rd Subs of Agosta 90B Class will also be installed in Pakistan and for that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t.

The AIP system requirements are known to Pakistan and we are now familiar with the MESMA AIP.

In the initial i.e. the first phase, fabrication and mounting of all seating, piping as well as cabling and equipment mounting required during pre-outfitting is taken in hand. This phase has already been completed through detailed planning coordination, work preparation - and through strict quality control at each step. This of course is due to the effort of a motivated workforce which is responsible for this achievement in the Dockyard.

Immediately after the lowering - the sections are junctioned and the Second Phase commences which also includes the final outfitting.

The main event of the Phase I is the transfer of the sections to graving dock and accurately placing on keel blocks for which state of the art theodolites are used. This operation is the key operation in Phase I.

To use a bit of the technical naval jargon - the operation discussed above is quite intricate and is conducted with the help of four Dual Walking Beams - and a specially installed Dock Lift System. The movements of this apparatus are highly precise and are synchronised to ensure safety of men as well as the section itself.

The maximum transfer of Technology was envisaged in submarine No. 3. The cylindrical part of the pressure hull was built from raw plates. All major structures and appendages were built in Pakistan. The work of pressure hull construction was shared between PN Dockyard and KS&EW. PN Dockyard provided the material after cutting to size and shape on NC cutting machine to KS&EW. This kit of material was rolled/formed and welded to make 12 subsections. These subsections were taken to Section Building Hall in PN Dockyard to make 03 large sections. On completion of pressure hull these three sections were pre-outfitted with decks, bulkheads and large structures. Based on similar construction methodology these sections along with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system MESMA were oufitted.

The submarine construction at PN Dockyard Department is now fully qualified as per ISO-2000

By the acquisition of this capability '... Pakistan Navy can now think ahead to explore new dimensions for the use of the facilities developed for submarine construction.


MESMA AIP system has its lesser ends some what correct over fuel cells but the advantage of MESMA is its maintainence. The greatest challenge for fuel-cell AIP systems lies in storing the reactants. Although oxygen can be handled with relative safety as LOX, storing hydrogen onboard as a liquid or high-pressure gas is very dangerous.

The efficiency of Fuel Cell is greater than MESMA but the power output of Fuel Cells is lesser than the MESMA.

Paksitan should get French support and start Scorpene or Marlin or whatever but DCN based, now with available infrustructure should not take long to make a Sub ready within Pakistan.

Repeating all the efforts again with Germans will be a bad choice if we want to see Pakistan make its own Sub in near Future.

 

[Quwa]

With U214 and the Scorpene-series - i.e. Marlin - you are essentially looking at the raising of new infrastructure for submarine operation, either way. Hence the reason why PN chose U214 over Marlin was because they deemed the U214 as a better new submarine. One must also consider the side-line technologies involved within U214 and how they implicate Pakistani projects...particularly in fuel-cell and perhaps even mini-nuclear reactors. There are a number of essays that advocate the high-scale development of hydrogen fuel cells in Pakistan...starting with coal and gas cells as an initial starter to produce some form of hydrogen (at least through gas) an move on to advanced hydrogen production. I would say the U214 deal is a lot more comprehensive and in line with future planning than you assume.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

With U214 and the Scorpene-series - i.e. Marlin - you are essentially looking at the raising of new infrastructure for submarine operation, either way. Hence the reason why PN chose U214 over Marlin was because they deemed the U214 as a better new submarine. One must also consider the side-line technologies involved within U214 and how they implicate Pakistani projects...particularly in fuel-cell and perhaps even mini-nuclear reactors. There are a number of essays that advocate the high-scale development of hydrogen fuel cells in Pakistan...starting with coal and gas cells as an initial starter to produce some form of hydrogen (at least through gas) an move on to advanced hydrogen production. I would say the U214 deal is a lot more comprehensive and in line with future planning than you assume.

Mark,

Fast and easy refuelling is possible only with MESMA and not fuel cells, AIP based on Fuel Cell requires new infrustructure, with Ethanol (in case of MESMA AIP) its easier and cheaper and maintainable without hazard.No toxic or explosive products are involved which is not the case with Fuel Cells.

Mini Reactor has nothing to do with fuel cell tech Mark, rather the MESMA technology is derived from the same concept of Steam produced with the Nuclear Reactor.

Closed-cycle Steam Turbines

The only steam-turbine AIP under active investigation is the French MESMA system (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). This is essentially a conventional Rankine-cycle turbo-alternator powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Basically, the MESMA approach is a derivative of French nuclear-propulsion experience using non-nuclear steam generation.

We are not looking to evolve in Hydrogen based fuel cells or are we? We are to evolve in Submarine Building tech!

 

[Quwa]

Mark,

Fast and easy refuelling is possible only with MESMA and not fuel cells, AIP based on Fuel Cell requires new infrustructure, with Ethanol (in case of MESMA AIP) its easier and cheaper and maintainable without hazard.No toxic or explosive products are involved which is not the case with Fuel Cells.

Mini Reactor has nothing to do with fuel cell tech Mark, rather the MESMA technology is derived from the same concept of Steam produced with the Nuclear Reactor.

Closed-cycle Steam Turbines

The only steam-turbine AIP under active investigation is the French MESMA system (Module d'Energie Sous-Marin Autonome). This is essentially a conventional Rankine-cycle turbo-alternator powered by steam generated from the combustion of ethanol (grain alcohol) and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres. This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor.

Basically, the MESMA approach is a derivative of French nuclear-propulsion experience using non-nuclear steam generation.

We are not looking to evolve in Hydrogen based fuel cells or are we? We are to evolve in Submarine Building tech!

Friend, know there is a proper committee that evaluates all options and especially these days takes into account local initiatives. Look at the options from a purely tactical standpoint...Agosta is a 1970s design with the -90B being the latest variant...a lot like the U209-series. The Marlin is based off the Scorpene which India ordered and puts Pakistan at a field-combat diasadvantage. Marlin is also just a conceptual design whereas the U214 has already materialized. There are other reasons such as a pending order from Turkey and their enthusiasm to develop a future variant of U214 using their GENESIS and own shipbuilding technology.

As for fuel-cell R&D in Pakistan...

fuel cell Pakistan - Google Search

In particular check out the Direct Carbon Fuel Cell essay...the author talks about using Pakistan's extensive coal reserves to produce coal-based fuel-cells. Not only develop coal-based fuel cells, but use it as a means to timely transition towards hydrogen production. If self-reliance is the key and U214 is top on the cards, then I doubt the PN, Pakistan Military or Government Defence Planners are thinking of importing hydrogen in the long-run.

Trust friend, trust...

 

[ahussains]

Can pakistan made 2 or 3 Agusta Class submarines it self or the contract is only for the 3 ones

 

[araz]

Can pakistan made 2 or 3 Agusta Class submarines it self or the contract is only for the 3 ones

I think although Pakistan would be free to construct more Agustas, the last one that we made still had a lot of components which came over from France in semi knocked down state and were assembled here. I suspect the case would remain the same if we needed more subs of the same kind.
Araz

 

[sohailbutt]

Salamualikum to all,

In my view PAK Navy should not build any more Agostas, because we want to keep up with the world in the latest submarine technology, Agostas were introduced way back in the 90's, frankly they are ships with old design now, it can be justified by just lookin at the French who's submarine industry has moved on from Agosta's, to Scorpene's (6 with our rival) now they moving to Merlin's (which they offered us by is still on paper) which is the latest till now from France in the diesel sub range.

Regarding U-214, we all know U boats are real kick *** submarines comparable to one, guys just see U boat history, it shadowed British ships in WW2, it sank loads of ships in WW2, only 24 of the U boats were lost none were lost by enemy fire but they were lost due to the mistakes of the unexperienced young crew's, we should be proud that the Germans have offered us U boats, cause these according to my view r the best in the diesel sub range, this can be justified by this Discovery Channel documentary of the program Future Weapons, very impressive indeed, do have a look at it

TfjYZUiOkUw[/media] - Aboard the quietest submarine in the world

Just think guys the best most fearsome subs in the world will be assembled in our Great Nation Pakistan by our Engineers, boy I'm so proud of my Nation, Pakistan Zindabad, May Allah make our Nation and It's People stronger, and unite all of us once again, AMEEN. I came across this U-214 assembly video which was assembled in South Korea, looks great boys, do have a look at it as well, sorry but I could not found a translated version so u have to listen to the Korean language what the guy in the video is speakin, but the video is impressive

1j9LYRCCZLc[/media] - building of U214 submarine

Guys wut I think by lookin at the naval build up of our rival, they have bought 6 scorpene's, and they have another order for 6 for which they have sent out request for proposal already, i think PAK Navy should have atleast 6 U boats and 3 Agostas which we already have and get a Barracuda Nuclear Submarine from Submarine, so bringing the submarine strength to 10 for PAK, if we get this fleet no ***** is gonna even think of messing with PAK.

If PAK places order for 6 U-214's in IDEAS 2008 in November, I'm sure this would be a big nail in French *** they would be very much willing to sell PAK their nuclear submarine!!!!!!

 

[Quwa]

Personally speaking...

I think PN should order 9 U214s and split the order evenly with TKMS-Germany, KSEW-Karachi and a KSEW subsidiary in Gwadar. As these SSKs get built, the PN should work on developing a 300km sea-skimming supersonic AShM; a JV with a foreign partner on a light ASW torpedo; and a 1500-2000+ km SLCM.

 

[Neo]

I agree and support the idea's, only problem is the JV for 1500-2000+km SLCM, this one will have to be designed and developped locally due CTBT based ban on missile crossing 300 km range.

 

[specialservices]

i think PN should go for Scorpen subs because they r very advance and very potent to defend our seas.Scorpen subs r also offered to the Indians and Indians dont accept crap. we have much better relations with French as compared to the Germans. French has also offered that if we choose Scorpen subs they will help on Agusta subs free of cost.French r very much free to make their decisions but the Germans r not,they r connected to the Americans and we all know that what they have done to our defence requirements.U-124s subs have no operational records in the world,not even in Gemany. more than 3 decads we r using French subs and we know they r one off the best.if we go for U-124s our this decision might make the French "UPSET" and i think that we r not in a position of doing that.this deal is a "BIG GAME" so we should play our cards very very carefully.the biggest problem with our navy is that we have always neglected the navy.now if we r getting a chance to give something to our navy then we should give the right thing to them but not the "TROUBLE".
if we go for the German subs and in future if Germans do something "UNUSUAL" related to the Subs project then what we will do.
in my opinion French subs we be the best for us.

 

[Quwa]

I agree and support the idea's, only problem is the JV for 1500-2000+km SLCM, this one will have to be designed and developped locally due CTBT based ban on missile crossing 300 km range.

Yes SLCM will have to developed locally...but the 300km supersonic sea-skimming AShM and future light ASW torpedo can be developed through JV.

We should also work on a short to medium-range SAM (1-40km) for land and surface ships...should be capable of intercepting aircraft, small-RCS targets, cruise missiles, etc. I think we should push for a JV with Turkey, Italy and South Africa...base it around the A-Darter 5th generation WVRAAM.

 

[Keysersoze]

i think PN should go for Scorpen subs because they r very advance and very potent to defend our seas.Scorpen subs r also offered to the Indians and Indians dont accept crap. we have much better relations with French as compared to the Germans. French has also offered that if we choose Scorpen subs they will help on Agusta subs free of cost.French r very much free to make their decisions but the Germans r not,they r connected to the Americans and we all know that what they have done to our defence requirements.U-124s subs have no operational records in the world,not even in Gemany. more than 3 decads we r using French subs and we know they r one off the best.if we go for U-124s our this decision might make the French "UPSET" and i think that we r not in a position of doing that.this deal is a "BIG GAME" so we should play our cards very very carefully.the biggest problem with our navy is that we have always neglected the navy.now if we r getting a chance to give something to our navy then we should give the right thing to them but not the "TROUBLE".
if we go for the German subs and in future if Germans do something "UNUSUAL" related to the Subs project then what we will do.
in my opinion French subs we be the best for us.

Works in theory, but if the Indians have selected it then the PN won't. There are obvious reasons why they wouldn't. And the French won't get "UPSET" as you like to say. They know that selling to one market precludes them selling the same product to a potential adversary.

The "BIG GAME" is being played quite well by the service arms when not being interfered by PAKS politicians (AKA mr 10%)

Finally using both capitals AND quotation marks makes you look silly I suggest you desist .