Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[asaad-ul-islam]

just a question, but why does pakistan intend to buy the U214 that utilizes tech that enables it to stay longer in the water when there are plans to build a n-sub? could it be perhaps, that pakistan will develop a n-sub only to launch slbm's in the future(hopefully insha'Allah) like India is planning to do and that the new tech for prolonged stay underwater will be utilized for attack subs only?

 

[ejaz007]

AGOSTA 90BThe Agosta conventional-propulsion submarine (SSK) was originally designed by DCNS for the French Navy. Pakistan and Spain have also purchased Agosta SSKs.
The Pakistan Navy’s satisfaction with the original design led to an order, placed in 1994, for three improved Agosta 90B submarines.

The main improvements concern:
combat system
operating depth
platform automation, hence reduced crewing
compatibility with the Mesma AIP option.
The contract called for the first Agosta 90B to be built in France and two more to be built in Pakistan by the KSEW shipyard in Karachi under a major technology transfer programme.

The first two boats, Khalid and Saad, are now in active service. The third, Hamsa, is nearing completion in Karachi. With the Mesma air-independent propulsion system now installed, the Hamsa is the first submarine to be fitted with a French AIP system

Without AIP
Submerged displacement : 1 760 t
Length, overall : 67 m
Maximum speed : 20 kts
Diving depht : > 300 m
Complement : 36
Endurance : > 60 days
With AIP
Submerged displacement : 1 980 t
Length, overall : 76 m
Maximum speed : 19 kts
DCNS - Businesses - Submarines - Agosta 90B

SCORPENE
Scorpene, the latest SSK family from DCNS, benefits from an array of innovations developed for the Le Triomphant SSBN programme, particularly in acorstic discretion.

Scorpene combines the latest advances in combat system design and platform automation to deliver unprecedented combat performance and survivability.

Modular design and construction mean that the Scorpene can readily accommodate an additional Mesma AIP 'plug'.

The Scorpene family is being developed in partnership with Navantia (formerly Izar) of Spain. DCNS and Navantia are currently building the second of two Scorpene submarines for the Chilean Navy and two more for the Royal Malaysian Navy.

Six additional units will be built for the Indian Navy at MDL shipyard in Mumbai in the frame of an extensive transfer of technology programme.

Length, overall : 66 at 76 m
Surface displacement 1,550 / 1,850 t
Submerged displacement : 1,790 / 2,010 t
Maximum speed : 20 kts
Diving depth > 350 m
Complement : 31
Endurance : 45 days
DCNS - Businesses - Submarines - Scorpene

This is the comparison of the two boats. I don't see much difference in them. What ever superiority one has is compensated by the other in different area. For example scorpene has better diving depth but lacks in endurance to Agosta 90B.
Regards,

 

[ejaz007]

Class 214
The Class 214 submarines were developed by HDW on the basis of the proven design principles of the family of Class 209 submarines. In addition, innovative systems from the Class 212A boats were also integrated in the design. The net result was and is an air-independent but non-nuclear submarine with exceptional technical and operational capabilities, featuring extraordinarily developed stealth characteristics and an impressive weapon and sensor payload. Thanks to its modular design, the Class 214 submarine can be equipped with a wide range of optional systems depending on the requirements of the customer navy.
Other exceptional features of the Class 214 submarine are:
Considerably extended submerged endurance and low detectability due to incorporation of the proven fuel cell system for air-independent propulsion
Minimised acoustic, thermal and magnetic signatures as a result of the mature design and the advanced production technology
Increased diving depth capabilities
Improved living conditions for the crew
The Class 214 submarine meets all operational requirements for missions in both shallow and deep water areas. Submarines of this class are now being built for the Hellenic and Korean Navies.

Technical Data
Length o.a. approx. 65 m
Pressure hull diameter approx. 6.3 m
Surface displacement approx. 1,700 t
Height from sail approx. 13 m
Torpedo tubes 8
Complement 27
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems

These are the details of U214 from naufacturer itself. Although not much information is provided it does seem that this is better than the french submarines. I have listed all the information I can extract now some expert, I mean real expert can elaborate.
Although I would like to state that having french infrastructure in place is a very strong argument in suppoprt of continuing with the french systems provided they offer better than what Pakistan already has.
Regards,

 

[Quwa]

just a question, but why does pakistan intend to buy the U214 that utilizes tech that enables it to stay longer in the water when there are plans to build a n-sub? could it be perhaps, that pakistan will develop a n-sub only to launch slbm's in the future(hopefully insha'Allah) like India is planning to do and that the new tech for prolonged stay underwater will be utilized for attack subs only?

The Agosta design is old, the Agosta-90B is essentially a distant upgrade of the Agosta-70 PN uses, and it is 'old'. The Type-214 deal might be done in close cooperation with Turkey as they are looking at the same submarine...but they will customize/upgrade it quite a bit. Besides, if you think about it - this might be a form of investment for Pakistan's fuel-cell industry. In any case if the Turks choose Type-214, then it will definitely be a promising SSK...the Turks are developing a submarine version of their GENESIS command & control apparatus - impressive system I think.

 

[Contrarian]

Scorpene has no advantage. Scorpene was competition class of submarine with Agosta. Different types.. same extent. Pakistan clearly picked the Agosta. Whatever India buy DOESNT have to be superior to what Pakistan buys. It depends on the tech, timeframe, cost, and the supplier. U-214 is clearly a next generation submarine "15 years ahead of Scorpene". Scorpene doesn't even have a AIP system let alone the fuel-cell technology!

Please dont act like a kid.
Scorpene and Agosta's are from the same company. There was no 'compeition' b/w them. DCN offers one submarine to the RFI by Pakistan. At that time when Pakistan bought the Agosta's, Scorpenes were not available.

BTW Scorpene is not built by DCN alone, its a JV between DCN and Navantia of Spain.

The Agosta's 90B is an upgrade to the original Agosta's that Pakistan originally owned. A 'direct derivative'.

And Pakistan ordered Agosta's in '94(to keep in mind that Pakistan ordered in 94, it was designed and made for French Navy before that), while the first Scorpene was launched, mind you NOT commisioned but launched in 2003. The difference of almost a decade.

Please stop this kiddish attitude. Pakistan got the Agosta 90B's when Scorpene was NOT available. And India procured Scorpene ONLY because the Agosta 90B's would have changed the underwater platforms equation in favour of Pakistan. Scorpene is NOT a derivative of Agosta's neither is it a mere upgrade. Agosta 90B is based on the original Agosta subs, while Scorpene is an entirely new design.

Again, your childish behaviour that "Scorpene's does not have the MESMA AIP let alone the fuel cell technology". Did you not even read my previous post. IN DOES NOT REQUIRE AIP IN Scorpene's. It is not an equalizer if you think its that. It only adds to the endurance of the boat while increasing the noise. It does nothing else.

With India making 6 Scorpene's, that is the reason why Pakistan wants to go for the U-214's. And the U-214 FYI is a good decade ahead in technology to the Agosta's not the Scorpenes.

India's submarine plan requires India to have a second line of SSK's which excel at land attack, India will issue the RFI soon for that, apart from SSN's being built.

Read Naval Technology.com if you want and read it in its entirety. And i dont care if you dont even want to learn something new.

 

[EagleEyes]

Please dont act like a kid.

Kid is calling me a kid? Next time, keep this to yourself. Otherwise, we will have to meet some where in Aero India next time.

Scorpene was competition class of submarine with Agosta. Different types.. same extent. Pakistan clearly picked the Agosta.

It pissed you off, didn't it? So kindly stop pissing other people off.

The Agosta's 90B is an upgrade to the original Agosta's that Pakistan originally owned. A 'direct derivative'.

Provide a source. It is an upgrade? Where you get your info from? Wiki?

You know what word "upgrade" means? right?

Only the "design" of the hull of the submarine is same. What does it have to do with anything in regards to its capability versus the Scorpene?

FYI, design and hull systems are two different things.

Also do you even know what "directive derivative" means other than copying off from Naval Technology webpage?

Scorpene is NOT a derivative of Agosta's neither is it a mere upgrade

Right! and Agosta-90B is an upgrade of Agosta-70 as you claim.

And the U-214 FYI is a good decade ahead in technology to the Agosta's not the Scorpenes.

Provide a source.

IN DOES NOT REQUIRE AIP IN Scorpene's. It is not an equalizer if you think its that. It only adds to the endurance of the boat while increasing the noise.

MESMA AIP doesn't only increases the endurance, but also makes the subs quieter, which is a great edge compare to the Scorpene, which has conventional propulsion system and can remain only 1/4 of the time submerged into the water compare to the AIP system.

DCNS - Businesses - Systems & Equipment - Mesma AIP
Naval Technology - SSK Scorpene - Conventional Submarine

As far as the design is concerned. Every sub has a different design, just because its Indian and has a different design.. It doesn't make it superior.

Please provide sources. Its so hard to believe whatever your post, because 90% of your posts are bias filled bullsh*t.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

-Please dont act like a kid.
-Please stop this kiddish attitude.
-childish behaviour
-And i dont care if you dont even want to learn something new.

sorry to enter in your discussion, but i wanted to say that i am also offended here. i may be new to this forum and i don't have the powef of these mods or whatever, but that is no way to talk to the webmaster. Please show some respect.

 

[seasword]

Please dont act like a kid.
Scorpene and Agosta's are from the same company. There was no 'compeition' b/w them. DCN offers one submarine to the RFI by Pakistan. At that time when Pakistan bought the Agosta's, Scorpenes were not available.

BTW Scorpene is not built by DCN alone, its a JV between DCN and Navantia of Spain.

The Agosta's 90B is an upgrade to the original Agosta's that Pakistan originally owned. A 'direct derivative'.

And Pakistan ordered Agosta's in '94(to keep in mind that Pakistan ordered in 94, it was designed and made for French Navy before that), while the first Scorpene was launched, mind you NOT commisioned but launched in 2003. The difference of almost a decade.

Please stop this kiddish attitude. Pakistan got the Agosta 90B's when Scorpene was NOT available. And India procured Scorpene ONLY because the Agosta 90B's would have changed the underwater platforms equation in favour of Pakistan. Scorpene is NOT a derivative of Agosta's neither is it a mere upgrade. Agosta 90B is based on the original Agosta subs, while Scorpene is an entirely new design.

Again, your childish behaviour that "Scorpene's does not have the MESMA AIP let alone the fuel cell technology". Did you not even read my previous post. IN DOES NOT REQUIRE AIP IN Scorpene's. It is not an equalizer if you think its that. It only adds to the endurance of the boat while increasing the noise. It does nothing else.

With India making 6 Scorpene's, that is the reason why Pakistan wants to go for the U-214's. And the U-214 FYI is a good decade ahead in technology to the Agosta's not the Scorpenes.

India's submarine plan requires India to have a second line of SSK's which excel at land attack, India will issue the RFI soon for that, apart from SSN's being built.

Read Naval Technology.com if you want and read it in its entirety. And i dont care if you dont even want to learn something new.

Or more accurately, the IN purchased the Scorpenes because of kickbacks that the politicians would rake in from the deal as well as "channeling" the PN to opt for the U214.

In terms of acoustic signatures, roughly speaking, the Scorpene (which comes in three variants) is comparable to the baseline export U214 as they are of the same "generation" if you would like to view it this way.

However many customers require modifications to their boats which may increase/decrease acoustic management as well as the boats' profiles. For example the CN and RN opted for the CM2000 baseline while the IN is going for a MESMA AIP/indigenous AIP upgrade path which IN hopes will give the Project 75 boats an edge over potential PN boats (which IN had already factored would be the U214 when closing the Scorpene deal).

 

[ejaz007]

This is what is listed about the three submarines on the site. From what I can understand there is not much difference between the submarines. For example Agosta and Scorpene carry almost similar type of weapons and have nearly same diving depth. Acoustic signature is one thing which is not clearly elaborated and it is difficult to know which boat is better.
Comparing Scorpene and U214 it seems U214 is better in diving depth. Weapons though different are perhaps in the same class and again acoustic signature is not clearly mentioned. Manufacturers of these boats claim them to be very quite and difficult to detect. Therefore considering that Scorpene and U214 are same in this category I think this buy is going to be good for PN. However no one should rule out Agosta 90B as it is not far behind in technology either.
Still I would prefer a French submarine if it is better or equal to Scorpene since we already have French know how and infra structure.

Naval Technology - U212/U214 - Attack Submarine

Naval Technology - SSK Scorpene - Conventional Submarine

Naval Technology - SSK Agosta 90B Class - Attack Submarine

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Okay...

Please note that having compared all Agosta 90B with AIP comes in league with U-214.
Scorpene is a similar type.

All these subs come in nearly the same class.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

But i again refer to my previous post.

Pakistan has an infrustructure for French made Subs and we should stick to that.

People who recommend U-214 know nothing about what Infrustructure means.

Agreed that U-214 option is a good one on scorpene with maybe 5% overall technology advancement, but the issues related to TOT and requirements for Infrustructure require more than what we will achieve.

Sticking with French can enhance our future in Submarine building and designing in Future if Pakistan wants to become self reliant in this field.

Changing to Germans is not a good option for the future of Submarine Industry and available Infrustructure in Pakistan.

 

[waz]

The French deal is dead, no point in mentioning French submarines anymore. The Pakistan Navy is now waiting for confirmation from the German government for the go ahead for the 214 deal, a vessel with greater capabilities than the either of the two French submarines.

 

[waz]

Just a few things I have posted on other forums about the 214, as people are making comparisons.


Look at dive depth for instance for the 214 which is 400m against the 300 of the Scorpene. Endurance for the 214 is 84 days against the 50 for the DCN submarine. You then have the operating range 12,000 nautical miles for the 214 v 6,400 miles for the Scropene and that is travelling at an efficient 8 knots. In terms of payload the 214 can hold more being the bigger sub and has 8 torpedo tubes in comparison to the Scorpene six. I mean these are bare basics so people don’t get bored to death if I go into more detail but I hope the message gets across.


The 214’s fuel cell technology is superior to the MEMSA steam-turbine Rankine,

Firstly on the 214Conversion of the energy in the fuel into electricity takes place silently, without combustion, by way of a direct electrochemical conversion, unlike the moving parts of other AIP systems [MEMSA] so reducing sonar signature by way of noise and also reducing the infer red signature unlike the heat build up with the operation of the steam turbine system.

The overall reaction itself of hydrogen and oxygen 2H2 + O2 => 2H2O, the fuel-cell approach is that the only "exhaust" product is pure water. So there are no exhaust products which are vital in reducing signature of the submarine i.e. it leaves no trails.

The fuel cell technology has a higher efficiency, especially at partial load. Efficiency usually relates to the ratio of out electrical energy to the energy content of input reactants. High efficiency is important in minimizing fuel and oxidant consumption which in turns means more endurance and range. Also the more efficient the system the less the heat that needs to be exhausted in cooling water so again reducing it’s infer red signature.

The MEMSA inherent efficiency level is the lowest of the four AIP choices [Fuel cell, Stirling, close cycle diesel] and its rate of oxygen consumption is correspondingly higher.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

WAZ ..

No one is saying U-214 is a bad choice.

Its is a better one... but when you have to choose for the requirements as per ground conditions then you see that what is a better option and that is only french. Mind it that if Paksitan Chooses German Sub then your Submarine Building techs will be getting started all over again for german tech since they know jack about it. I know that their working procedures are a lot different from French and you will end up getting to self reliance in 10 years.

You expand your tech Infrustructure ones you have grasped all the aspects of the present tech which we have not done yet in case of DCN.

And please!

If you are comparing French Submarines with Germans then i can only say that you are ill informed in regard of Submarines.

 

[araz]

WAZ ..

No one is saying U-214 is a bad choice.

Its is a better one... but when you have to choose for the requirements as per ground conditions then you see that what is a better option and that is only french. Mind it that if Paksitan Chooses German Sub then your Submarine Building techs will be getting started all over again for german tech since they know jack about it. I know that their working procedures are a lot different from French and you will end up getting to self reliance in 10 years.

You expand your tech Infrustructure ones you have grasped all the aspects of the present tech which we have not done yet in case of DCN.

And please!

If you are comparing French Submarines with Germans then i can only say that you are ill informed in regard of Submarines.

Brother,
Pakistani know how level is confined to assembly of modules and specialized Welding techniques. I have said this before, I am no naval expert, but I think the reason they have decided to go German, is that they can build on their existing levels of Know how and eventually develop a sub of their own or Build more of the same under licence. Nobody denies that U214 is a better and more Advanced sub than what Pak Navy has at the moment. Therefore the choice to me seems logical only if you consider the above rationale. Perhaps Germans are being looked to for cooperation in further projects. Who knows.
My 2 PAisas worth
Araz