Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Invictus01]

Clearly you havnt gone through the entire thread considering you are making lousy complaints. Rifle procurement for us is almost 5-6 billion $ expenditure. Do you think its easy to replace 1 million rifles? Obviously this big procurement wont be done without TOT and local production so hold your horses it takes time

Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
What are we procuring?
Star Wars Laser beamers???
Where did you get these figures from my friend?
Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about
A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$
Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)

 

[Pandora]

Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
What are we procuring?
Star Wars Laser beamers???
Where did you get these figures from my friend?
Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about
A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$
Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)

You are talking about commercially available rifles not Military grade rifles. This all has been discussed a hundred times on this thread.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Lol
You my friend don't know jack shit about guns
These accessories you see are knock-off Chinese aftermarket parts
Half of these Red dot sights you see don't even hold zero except for a few original aimpoint red dots issued in limited quantities to certain units
Neither have these procurements been made at army level
They are all unit level procurements & mostly sold to them by a guy in Peshawar
I can get you InTouch with him if you like
Have you even held one of these modded AKs? Ever Fired one?
I highly doubt so
These AKs are forward heavy meaning you won't be able to aim down them for much long before muscle fatigue shows up

You're more of a keyboard warrior that picks certain pictures off of the internet to back your argument

I don’t know who’s been feeding you this stuff, but if you’re falling for it, it may be well deserved.

Those AKs come from China and Europe. Modernization kits do come from Pakistan (and other countries).
The optics are real aimpoints Received (and bought) from the US. If we can buy F-16s from them, what makes you think we cannot buy optics?
There are other optics in service too, including Chinese ones, but how exactly does Chinese = bad? They make some of the best military accessories these days if you buy from the right companies, just because you’re buying knockoffs, doesn’t mean PA is too.

Yes the procurements are made at regiment level, not as ideal as a force-wide standard. but I don’t see how that’s a big negative Either. In fact any Regiment caught slacking with the funds issued to it for PPE, accessories and firearms modernization is going to end up in a lot of trouble, there’s systems in place for a reason.

Yes, I have owned and shot these AKs. With a few different setups too. But I don’t need time behind a trigger to use as credibility to insult someone.

I don’t know why everyone who Has a uncles brothers friends son in the army thinks they’re now the authority on everything military related. And then when someone answers back they resort straight to insults like “keyboard warrior“

AKs aren’t front heavy by nature, There is the drawback of not being able to mount Optics on the dust cover without a side mount (unless you have an AK203). However, The red dots are not as heavy as you’re making them out to be. There’s also Grips as standard issue (with bipods). I do however despise the folding stocks. They are the worst thing about the guns.
Are the setups Ideal? No, would I prefer an AR platform? 100%. But are they good enough? Yes. Definitely an upgrade over a G3 or an AK with no optics at all.
They Are also properly Zeroed in. Army armorers are trained, the guns are well taken care of.

You are talking about commercially available rifles not Military grade rifles. This all has been discussed a hundred times on this thread.

The guns have already been replaced, I’m really not sure why people keep asking For another replacement.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Lol 5-6 billion Dollars?
What are we procuring?
Star Wars Laser beamers???
Where did you get these figures from my friend?
Clearly you don't know about anything you're talking about
A decent Ar-15 pattern rifle costs a maximum of 1000$
Multiply that figure by say 100'000 as an initial off the shelf procurement for front line units costs you a maximum of 100 million dollars which isn't that huge an account considering the capabilities it will bring to troops on the ground (ergonomics+accuracy+better metallurgy+mounts for accessories)

if only it was that simple. Finding a company to supply them, then trialing the gun (and assuming it passes trials), then retraining everyone on AR-pattern rifles, then re-tooling factories for 556 ammo, then rebuilding stocks. (And that’s considering Pakistan gets licenses to produce said rifle locally too, and the cost of said license And related machines, otherwise direct import is even more expensive.)
This isn’t the USA where 1000$ USD will get you a decent (civilian) AR-15 build.

However I do think that if the military could switch to an AR Pattern rifle in 7.62x39, that would be a good compromise. But there aren’t many of those (specifically made for military usage) out there.

 

[Waiting]

These and the Modernized AK203 style rifles are both very common. The other one has been seen more often in Combat in FATA and other COIN Ops. Not hard to find photos of it.
Couple of actual AK-103Ms in there too. View attachment 784179View attachment 784180View attachment 784181View attachment 784182View attachment 784183View attachment 784184View attachment 784185View attachment 784186View attachment 784187

If only you‘d have bothered to read any of the posts, look at any pictures or videos or done any research at all. Sadly it’s always easier to complain than do any of those things.

Non of them is original AK 103

 

[iLION12345_1]

Non of them is original AK 103

There are original AK-103s in two of the pictures. One of them is from the trials. I’m pretty sure Russia would want real ones in the trials

 

[Waiting]

There are original AK-103s in two of the pictures. One of them is from the trials. I’m pretty sure Russia would want real ones in the trials

Ohh, thanx. Failed to see

 

[spectregunship]

Modernizing the standard infantry loadout doesn’t just mean getting them shiny new rifles, People keep criticizing PA for that but there is no praise for the fact that Modern optics, grips, radios, earpieces and other kit that we never see in third world armies has been made standard in the PA. These optics and grips help a soldier much more than a slightly newer rifle would. It was absolutely the correct choice to spend money on those instead of buying the most expensive rifles. PA took the middle way and bought average rifles or modernized ones and then equipped them properly with accessories.

Just a quick fact check...induction of equipment that you mentioned is piece meal and not a standardisation.... neither the T56 / POF made T56 is being standardised despite its addition in large numbers... The standard rifle remains the G3... and it is not being replaced with any other...as of yet...

 

[iLION12345_1]

Just a quick fact check...induction of equipment that you mentioned is piece meal and not a standardisation.... neither the T56 / POF made T56 is being standardised despite its addition in large numbers... The standard rifle remains the G3... and it is not being replaced with any other...as of yet...

You can call it what you want, so can the army, the reality in the force is what I mentioned. G3s are rarely seen, rarely carried and rarely used now, and it’s highly unlikely we will see a large scale replacement for them, If the PA does buy a new .308 calibre rifle it will serve in more specialized roles. The current AKs (or hopefully better ones in the future) will remain the mainstay, that or any other gun in the calibre. That is the replacement for the G3.

If PA does adopt a .308 rifle and standardizes it again, not only are they wasting all the money spent on the current AKs, they are also significantly reducing the accuracy of an average soldier, as well as increasing the weight and size of the rifle he has to carry. The cartridge is simply not suitable for mass adoption. There is a reason every modern military has stopped using it (The best ones have moved on to even smaller 5.56 and 5.45 calibers, but our logistics hold us back from that at the moment).

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Guys I have seen these weapons first hand. The state of affairs is not good.

We have essentially taken the notion that existing platforms modified with non-standardized Chinese after market parts makes for a rifle replacement strategy. It does not. G3s are no longer viable assets for the type of warfare Pakistani military orgs need to contend with. SMGs which are currently Chinese milled units are heavy, clunky primarily iron sighted. From NV to red-dots - nothing is following a standards approach. You still have Maal Khana extracts making it to fighting units and replenishments of some captured weapons (Russian/East European units) especially for Officers who are always on the look out for a good "dana". Many coming from FC fighting units. I am not saying let's go on a Call of Duty shopping expedition. What I am saying is there is a lot of room for standardization and sourcing improvement. There is room for core platform enhancement, while keep in mind the environment and nature of our solider and his ability to keep his rifle in operating condition.

Rifle replacement strategy by the PA is not positive. I will still contend that the culture that exists in PA is Col and below one world, Brig and above another world. It breaks my heart to see how tough conditions are for grunts and folks on the field. Not the LOC. LOC is well replenished and done well. But come down to RYK/Rajastan or the Western border - man it is rough. Basic things like medical support, water etc., is a challenge. Let's not even talk about Rangers and their conditions. Not the Rangers getting fat and happy in their city appointments (which never end), but the poor souls on the borders.

I dont want to start anything here with respect to Officer corp and fighting soldier differences, but when CMH in Pindi began to separate Officer wing from Solider wing (many years ago) - you know the culture has become toxic. Hoping some current Pakistani officers see the folly in this and that this colonial and class based mindset will always hurt a war fighting force and should change. Let there be a "caste system" in the Indian army, but let's not bring similar BS into our system of brotherhood and war fighting, under the guise of British lessons of unit discipline.

I hope these comments are taken with a positive approach and not looked at as negative. Intention is to improve here.

 

[spectregunship]

You can call it what you want, so can the army, the reality in the force is what I mentioned. G3s are rarely seen, rarely carried and rarely used now, and it’s highly unlikely we will see a large scale replacement for them, If the PA does buy a new .308 calibre rifle it will serve in more specialized roles. The current AKs (or hopefully better ones in the future) will remain the mainstay, that or any other gun in the calibre. That is the replacement for the G3.

If PA does adopt a 308 rifle and standardizes it again, not only are they wasting all the money spent on the current AKs, they are also significantly reducing the accuracy of an average soldier, as well as increasing the weight and size of the rifle he has to carry. The cartridge is simply not suitable for mass adoption. There is a reason every modern military has stopped using it (The best ones have moved on to even smaller 5.56 and 5.45 calibers, but our logistics hold us back from that at the moment).

I mean I never get into arguments on the forum but it is not what I want to call it but what is a reality in force. It would be misleading for a lot many readers on this forum if they take home from this thread that AK / T56 is replacement for G3 because it is not. All T56 induction is part of special stores allocation for the location, duty or requirement. That remains a fact and does not change anything within the Army's tactics and training.

P.S. 7.62x51 is not the same as .308.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Guys I have seen these weapons first hand. The state of affairs is not good.

We have essentially taken the notion that existing platforms modified with non-standardized Chinese after market parts makes for a rifle replacement strategy. It does not. G3s are no longer viable assets for the type of warfare Pakistani military orgs need to contend with. SMGs which are currently Chinese milled units are heavy, clunky primarily iron sighted. From NV to red-dots - nothing is following a standards approach. You still have Maal Khana extracts making it to fighting units and replenishments of some captured weapons (Russian/East European units) especially for Officers who are always on the look out for a good "dana". Many coming from FC fighting units.

Rifle replacement strategy by the PA is not positive. I will still contend that the culture that exists in PA is Col and below one world, Brig and above another world. It breaks my heart to see how tough conditions are for grunts and folks on the field. Not the LOC. LOC is well replenished and done well. But come down to RYK/Rajastan or the Western border - man it is rough. Basic things like medical support, water etc., is a challenge. Let's not even talk about Rangers and their conditions. Not the Rangers getting fat and happy in their city appointments (which never end), but the poor souls on the borders.

I dont want to start anything here with respect to Officer corp and fighting soldier differences, but when CMH in Pindi began to separate Officer wing from Solider wing (many years ago) - you know the culture has become toxic. Hoping some current Pakistani officers see the folly in this and that this colonial and class based mindset will always hurt a war fighting force and should change. Let there be a "caste system" in the Indian army, but let's not bring similar BS into our system of brotherhood and war fighting, under the guise of British lessons of unit discipline.

I hope these comments are taking with a positive approach and not looked at as negative. Intention is to improve here.

Some of the stuff I agree with, some I disagree with. Some is not even True, some is.

But one thing is for certain, the segregation that exists between an NCO and a CO in the military is very much a part of the society we live in and it’s norms, that is a very unfortunate thing, one carried over from centuries of culture. Both of the old Muslim armies and then the British ones.

The only way to get rid of it is through education, there has been a stark improvement in the treatment of NCOs as the general level of education among them has gone up And they have started to realize their own importance. Not less than 15 years ago, many of them had only passed primary school, nowadays they cannot enlist without passing FSC. It’s still nowhere near ideal, and it will stay that way until we improve as a society to where ranks in a workplace stay related to the job and don’t make the person themselves superior or inferior as it is now. It’s not just a thing In the armed forces, it’s as such everywhere. One positive example is the Air Force and to some extent the navy, where due to the generally higher qualifications of all the members, Officers and Jawans aren't as segregated. Still, a lot remains to be done.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

I agree with everything you said - so wondering what parts in my writeup you disagreed with. Would love to get your thoughts.
If the cycling in of captured weapons is where you disagree, I can shed how it is done.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I mean I never get into arguments on the forum but it is not what I want to call it but what is a reality in force. It would be misleading for a lot many readers on this forum if they take home from this thread that AK / T56 is replacement for G3 because it is not. All T56 induction is part of special stores allocation for the location, duty or requirement. That remains a fact and does not change anything within the Army's tactics and training.

P.S. 7.62x51 is not the same as .308.

Again, on paper, you’d be right, in practice, unfortunately not. You can’t just say “the G3 is our standard rifle And our doctrine and training is based around it” while also not using them at all, but instead almost exclusively using AK series rifles. See how that’s counterproductive? The designation of “standard rifle” means little then.
PAs training and tactics are also based around the AK series at the moment. That’s the rifle mostly used in training, that’s the one used on the LOC, that’s the one used in Ex-FATA, that’s the one carried by sentries. So even if the G3 is still the “standard rifle” on paper, in practice it’s just not true, and that matters more.

That being said, I don’t think what I said counters what you said (or Vice versa). My point still stands, that the replacement for the G3 will likely be an AK platform (or anything) in the 7.62x39MM calibre, and with how things are going right now, it certainly seems we’re already there. If the PA does in fact buy another 7.62x51MM calibre battle rifle to replace the G3 in large numbers, then I’m afraid they’d be making a very stupid mistake.

And I am aware they are not exactly the same, however, they are nearly identical and interchangeable, Hence one or the other doesn’t matter.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Again, on paper, you’d be right, in practice, unfortunately not. You can’t just say “the G3 is our standard rifle And our doctrine and training is based around it” while also not using them at all, but instead almost exclusively using AK series rifles. See how that’s counterproductive? The designation of “standard rifle” means little then.
PAs training and tactics are also based around the AK series at the moment. That’s the rifle mostly used in training, that’s the one used on the LOC, that’s the one used in Ex-FATA, that’s the one carried by sentries. So even if the G3 is still the “standard rifle” on paper, in practice it’s just not true, and that matters more.

That being said, I don’t think what I said counters what you said (or Vice versa). My point still stands, that the replacement for the G3 will likely be an AK platform (or anything) in the 7.62x39MM calibre, and with how things are going right now, it certainly seems we’re already there. If the PA does in fact buy another 7.62x51MM calibre battle rifle to replace the G3 in large numbers, then I’m afraid they’d be making a very stupid mistake.

And I am aware they are not exactly the same, however, they are nearly identical and interchangeable, Hence one or the other doesn’t matter.

My understanding is the transition to SMG has been going on for some time. Though my views were that G3 remained the central weapon of choice in battle formations (mechanized and armor supported infantry), with a few SMGs peppered around. Whereas pure infantry formations (not full battle formations), COIN ops are front loaded with SMGs and not G3s. I maybe mistaken.