Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

[ChineseTiger1986]

Just wait for another 5 years.

 

[The SC]

Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Project


20/2/2012
In late 2011 an internet rumor spread about Pakistan's development of nuclear submarines and in early 2012, we have heard major news networks in Pakistan announce the development of Pakistan's nuclear submarines "in 5-8 years". The earliest news of Pakistan's nuclear submarine project was in 2006 when General Musharraf announced that Pakistan now has the technology to build nuclear submarines.

The first point to ponder is that Pakistan, unlike certain other countries, prefers to develop weapon systems quietly. If this kind of announcements are coming out, in all probability Pakistan already has a nuclear submarine, or at minimum critical components, well underway. The most critical component is the nuclear power plant, and the news thus points to the development of a miniature power plant.
RUMINT suggests that Pakistan's nuclear submarine is likely to be based on the Qing Class Chinese SSK, which Pakistan is believed to receive 6 units of. Given the giant size of the Qing Class (5,000-6,000 tons), the submarine is ideally suited as the basis for a Pakistani SSN / SSBN. RUMINT also suggests that Pakistan is seeking a smaller sized nuclear sub that sacrifices speed for simplicity and ease of maintenance. The basic idea is that instead of hydraulic propulsion, the Pakistani subs will utilize an all-electric propulsion system that is charged by the nuclear power plant.

Such an arrangement fits in perfectly for the following reasons:
1. Pakistani SSNs/SSBNs do not need to keep up with a carrier group or large-scale task force; They are likely to operate solo, making the loss of possibly 3-5 knots in speed less relevant.
2. The Qing Class (and other SSKs) already have a highly advanced electric propulsion system. The Pakistani nuclear submarine would thus be a replacement of the diesel engine power generation with a nuclear power plant.
3. Electric propulsion has traditionally lagged behind hydraulic propulsion, but recent advances in the former has significantly reduced the gap in performance between the two.
4. Sets up future improvements in technology which are headed towards magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, saving on investment in hydraulic submarine propulsion which would have been a technological dead-end investment.
Taking a closer look at the possible type of nuclear power plant to be utilized, it is likely to be a small pressurized light water reactor. Such a reactor would require some R&D given that Pakistan does not have much expertise in light water reactors, and because the need for miniaturization. However, given Chinese expertise and potential assistance, this should not prove to be a difficult challenge to overcome. Moreover, Pakistan has a highly qualified and competent nuclear establishment that should be able to meet the challenge, insh'Allah.
Another potential help may have been the transfer of technology from France with the Agosta 90B submarine purchase. A number of key technologies were transferred including design and development skills and tools. Building of hulls and experience with Western subsystems, many of which are used in the French nuclear submarines would help the Pakistani SSN / SSBN, if it already has not found its way to the Chinese Qing Class.
In sum, while India is preparing her first indigenous nuclear submarine, Pakistan is well underway in making an equivalent capability upgrade. While the time-frame given in the media is 5-8 years, it is very possible that Pakistan is capable of building and fielding such a submarine in 3-5 years. The timeline for building and deploying such a sub is mainly dependent on how quickly and successfully the Indian nuclear submarine program is able to field and operate a submarine.

UPDATE 17/3/2012:

Two rumors from Pervaiz Shamim:
1. The nuclear submarine project and the Qing Class are separate developments
2. There is a South American country, rumored to be Argentina that is interested in some form of partnership in the (nuclear submarine) project.

Although I have a high regard for Brother Shamim, I think the first point is misinformation meant to shroud China's role and the extent of the Qing Class lineage. The second issue about Argentina is very speculative but is just possible. A more realistic partner would be Brazil. I would also throw in Turkey as a collaborator. Pakistan-Turkey-Brazil-Argentina (?) I think there is definitely loose collaboration on specific subsystems and technologies between at least the first three, if not Argentina.

I do think that the Argentinians are taking a closer look at the JF-17. However, there is very little to go by in terms of Argentina-Pakistan relations, and far more in terms of Brazil-Pakistan, where collaboration has gone to the extent of transfer of technology and weapon systems such as the MAR-1s and MAA-1As, and is likely to include the A-Darter and/or the MAA-1Bs in the future.

Grande Strategy

 

[JonAsad]

Out of the blue we willlll ssuddenlly lllaauunccchhh itttttt- *cough*cough- damn i got into my 50's writing this-

 

[Sulman Badshah]

I thought PN will get S20 (export variant of Yuan Class)...

It is still confusing about S20 and qing class subs (which one is PN going to Acquire )

 

[S.U.R.B.]

Out of the blue we willlll ssuddenlly lllaauunccchhh itttttt- *cough*cough- damn i got into my 50's writing this-

You cough a lot for a "50 year old youngman"..
Yup, 50 years ago (June 1964), PN introduced our first shark in the deep sea.She was nasty.The only one of her type at that time.

We have to see that how much more time they take to introduce our first wild male killer whale.That fish sure will take some time to develop and mature.Aiming for a thing that big enough ,one must have availability of all the possible resources, to achieve acceptable results.Expertise ,a dedicated man power and development friendly environment all of it can take years to make someone able to hatch something that potent.

The day will come,may be with in our life span.Hang in there!

 

[The SC]

Pakistan have signed a deal with China for 6 Qing class submarines with styrling AIP and all electric propulsion system.
Reports are different concerning the tonnage, some say between 3000/4000, some talk about 6000 tons submarines.
there are many threads about the deal, and you can look it up on the Internet easily.

 

[ares]

Pakistan have signed a deal with China for 6 Qing class submarines with styrling AIP and all electric propulsion system.
Reports are different concerning the tonnage, some say between 3000/4000, some talk about 6000 tons submarines.
there are many threads about the deal, and you can look it up on the Internet easily.

Pakistan hasn't signed any deal yet, there are only rumors that a deal might be singed for 6 S-20( Yuan class) SSK by end of this year.

China, Pakistan set for submarine deal by end of year, say officials - IHS Jane's 360

Yuan class(3600 tonnes) is approximately half the size of Qing class(6600 tonnes) and does not carry CJ-10 missile.

S20 which is further a scale down version(1800 ton displacement) is export version of yuan class is what Pakistan might get.

Such small subs unlikely to carry any nuclear weapons , more than that Pakistan does not have any SLBM or SLCM which can deliver nuclear weapons.

 

[The SC]

Pakistan hasn't signed any deal yet, there are only rumors that a deal might be singed for 6 S-20( Yuan class) SSK by end of this year.

China, Pakistan set for submarine deal by end of year, say officials - IHS Jane's 360

Yuan class(3600 tonnes) is approximately half the size of Qing class(6600 tonnes) and does not carry CJ-10 missile.

S20 which is further a scale down version(1800 ton displacement) is export version of yuan class is what Pakistan might get.

Such small subs unlikely to carry any nuclear weapons , more than that Pakistan does not have any SLBM or SLCM which can deliver nuclear weapons.

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC’s Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China’s PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China’s Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK’s all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for the PLA Navy’s six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

Information Dissemination: China Exporting Submarines For Pakistans Nuclear Triad

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We are expecting the arrival this december 6 Submarines and 36 J10B

 

[ares]

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC’s Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China’s PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China’s Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK’s all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for the PLA Navy’s six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

Information Dissemination: China Exporting Submarines For Pakistans Nuclear Triad

Your source is full of crap, no such deal was signed.

Check the date of the of your article ...Wednesday, June 29, 2011

Check the date of Janes article.. 02 February 2014

Pakistan could sign a deal to buy up to six submarines from China before the end of 2014, senior Pakistani government officials have told IHS Jane's .

China, Pakistan set for submarine deal by end of year, say officials - IHS Jane's 360

 

[The SC]

Your source is full of crap, no such deal was signed.

Check the date of the of your article ...Wednesday, June 29, 2011

Check the date of Janes article.. 02 February 2014

If you look hard, you'll find out that the deal was signed with the previous pakistani government.
So according to you all the sources confirming this are full of crap.

Pakistan Orders 6 Qing-class Submarines, Leases Type 054A FFGs From China

Pakistan Orders 6 Qing-class Submarines, Leases Type 054A FFGs From China | 21st Century Asian Arms Race


In the past it Has been Reported that Pakistan is getting 039 class "Songs" or 041 class Yuan class From china But now reports emerge that it is the latest variant of 041 class named "QING" class submarines for which a deal was inked for 6.
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011_05_29_archive.html
ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS: May 2011

 

[ares]

If you look hard, you'll find out that the deal was signed with the previous pakistani government.

No such deal was signed!!

or when was it signed, who signed it, for how much..when will the subs be delivered?

IF a deal has already been signed why is Pakistani govt saying that it might sign a deal for Yuan class from China by end of 2014?

 

[The SC]

No such deal was signed!!

or when was it signed, who signed it, for how much..when will the subs be delivered?

IF a deal has already been signed why is Pakistani govt saying that it might sign a deal for Yuan class from China by end of 2014?

Maybe for 6 Yuan class this time, the 6 Qing class are in the making.

 

[JonAsad]

The deal was signed between Wuhan-based China State Shipbuilding Industrial Corp (CSIC) and Pakistani Government in April 2011 is for 6 Qing class submarine,These submarines will be double hulled with a submerged displacement of 3,600 tons. It will be equipped with the new Stirling-cycle AIP and will be able to carry upto 3 CJ-10K which could carry nuclear warheds, Other features include hull retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The AIP and the propulsion systems will be all electric and not the diesal electric propulsion system making the submarines very quiet. This propulsion system has already been tested on a number of heavier Chinese submarines.

ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS: Pakistan Navy To Get 6 QING Class Submarines And 2 Typ 054A FFGs From China

 

[ito]

pak has nukes to counter india. i don't think pak needs nuke subs.