Pakistan's New F-16s Can Beat India's Su-30s; Rafales Are The Counter

[knight11]

In terms of Battle Field Record I would Disagree as PAF Pilots have Engaged with lot of superior enemies in terms of Tech as well as Capabilities like in 2 Arab Israel wars(Flying Russian Planes against French Mirages of Israeli IAF) and also recorded Confirm Kills as well few Pakistani Pilots also took part and during Cold War PAF Pilots also engaged with Russian Jets as well though it remains only to Lock down stage and didnt went further so Pakistan has much better Battle Field record then Indians if you have done research before discussing that.

Kab tak Arab-Israel ka DHOL peetey rahoge.

It is good for keeping the morale high for Pakistani Airforce personal. Yes everyone do this to keep the morale high but its better to think on facts, present and reality. The enemy airforce you are talking about is different from the past when they were technologically inferior weapons. Over the years they have developed the tactics and doctrines which are different from the Russion one thats why USAF were shocked during Cope India Exercise, your so called adversaries have decades of experience with the BVR and electronic warfare. They have much bigger pocket and can buy most of the weapons and have technology from any country, Russians, U.S., European and may be from China. Have much better technically proficient technicians and engineers, scientist and in more numbers and more Technological know how and R&D. They have much bigger capacity to build/manufacturing capacity to manufacture the fighter planes in the country and have much bigger industrial base.

First of all these MKI and Rafale are meant for the Chinese PLAF and please don't put PAF into the scene. PAF can keep its F-16, JF-17 with their AWACs in their boundaries and IAF will keep its M2K, MIG29smt, BISON for the defensive role. HAPPY NOW

 

[Gazi]

Kab tak Arab-Israel ka DHOL peetey rahoge.

It is good for keeping the morale high for Pakistani Airforce personal. Yes everyone do this to keep the morale high but its better to think on facts, present and reality. The enemy airforce you are talking about is different from the past when they were technologically inferior weapons. Over the years they have developed the tactics and doctrines which are different from the Russion one thats why USAF were shocked during Cope India Exercise, your so called adversaries have decades of experience with the BVR and electronic warfare. They have much bigger pocket and can buy most of the weapons and have technology from any country, Russians, U.S., European and may be from China. Have much better technically proficient technicians and engineers, scientist and in more numbers and more Technological know how and R&D. They have much bigger capacity to build/manufacturing capacity to manufacture the fighter planes in the country and have much bigger industrial base.

First of all these MKI and Rafale are meant for the Chinese PLAF and please don't put PAF into the scene. PAF can keep its F-16, JF-17 with their AWACs in their boundaries and IAF will keep its M2K, MIG29smt, BISON for the defensive role. HAPPY NOW

Still India is 15 Years behind in Tactical area as they have started much Later then Pakistan focusing on Human Factor while Pakistan has develop its Top Gun like institution in 1976 by the Name CCS which covers DACT (Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Tactics) while India still doesnt have something as notable as that one till yet AFAIK. India is Catching up but are still not there yet in terms of Human Factor but in terms of Techs India is Ahead no doubt but Pakistan is Catching up quite Fast as Pakistan has been able to Eliminate one of the major factor Concerning 3rd World Countries and their Air Force which is COST and by introducing some degree of Indigenous development Pakistan is also making progress in Development as well.

MKI is potent Air Craft which has Role of Flanker which means its Air Superiority Fighter rather then Multi Role and it covers 4.5 Generation of Air Craft while China is developing 5th Generation in the form of J20(Air Superiority) and J31(Multi Role) and in terms of number of Fleets of J10 which is another 4.5 Gen. China can Counter MKIs as well. Pakistan is now Considering Fifth Gen Option from China Right now and most probably J31 would be that machine(Chinese wont introduce J20 in the Market) while remaining inventory of F16A/B(Getting Mid Life Upgrades), F16C/D, JF17 are more then enough for Defense Role and UAV development is also adding a value in terms of Ground Defense.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Still India is 15 Years behind in Tactical area as they have started much Later then Pakistan focusing on Human Factor while Pakistan has develop its Top Gun like institution in 1976 by the Name CCS which covers DACT (Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Tactics) while India still doesnt have something as notable as that one till yet AFAIK. India is Catching up but are still not there yet in terms of Human Factor but in terms of Techs India is Ahead no doubt but Pakistan is Catching up quite Fast as Pakistan has been able to Eliminate one of the major factor Concerning 3rd World Countries and their Air Force which is COST and by introducing some degree of Indigenous development Pakistan is also making progress in Development as well.

MKI is potent Air Craft which has Role of Flanker which means its Air Superiority Fighter rather then Multi Role and it covers 4.5 Generation of Air Craft while China is developing 5th Generation in the form of J20(Air Superiority) and J31(Multi Role) and in terms of number of Fleets of J10 which is another 4.5 Gen. China can Counter MKIs as well. Pakistan is now Considering Fifth Gen Option from China Right now and most probably J31 would be that machine(Chinese wont introduce J20 in the Market) while remaining inventory of F16A/B(Getting Mid Life Upgrades), F16C/D, JF17 are more then enough for Defense Role and UAV development is also adding a value in terms of Ground Defense.

look at it this way pakistan is next door to india but unlike india who placed all its starategik assets at least 50+miles from indo pak border after 1965 pakistan dint did that and all its staragik assets (bridges, town , ammo dumps , airfields) are in range of 10-35 miles from indo pak border and are an easy target for indian artilerry units

now lets talk about airforce we even as of now have enof that moniters and tracks each and every activity on pakistani air fields but sitting comfertaballi away from your offensive infra against them

and in case of war MKIs will be your last problems your bulk of airforce would be utilesed and agsausted in conataining damage caused by IAFs Jags , M2Ks and Mig 29s ... how are you going to counter that as you have onli 18 Blk 52 F-16s and that too highli dependent on US experts present on your airbases for new source codes after each sortie and the rest of your F-16s (which no dought are highli potent) but can they hold 100+ jags & 100 + M2Ks & mig 29s which are all now uprgaed to the best possible levels or are in process of

 

[Gazi]

look at it this way pakistan is next door to india but unlike india who placed all its starategik assets at least 50+miles from indo pak border after 1965 pakistan dint did that and all its staragik assets (bridges, town , ammo dumps , airfields) are in range of 10-35 miles from indo pak border and are an easy target for indian artilerry units

If Pakistan has put their Assets close then they have put their Fire Power close as well and that is why India is applying Cold Start Strategy rather then Full Scale War which India has always known for so in this sense Pakistan's Defensive Maneuvers are also better since Pakistan has been Gaining lot of Experience and Battle Ready Army Units by Zarb-e-Azb as well.

now lets talk about airforce we even as of now have enof that moniters and tracks each and every activity on pakistani air fields but sitting comfertaballi away from your offensive infra against them

If India can Moniter Pakistan's Activity then Pakistan can also Monitor Indian Front Line Activities as well in fact much better then India since Pakistan has more AWACS and that too in multiple Platforms.

and in case of war MKIs will be your last problems your bulk of airforce would be utilesed and agsausted in conataining damage caused by IAFs Jags , M2Ks and Mig 29s ... how are you going to counter that as you have onli 18 Blk 52 F-16s and that too highli dependent on US experts present on your airbases for new source codes after each sortie and the rest of your F-16s (which no dought are highli potent) but can they hold 100+ jags & 100 + M2Ks & mig 29s which are all now uprgaed to the best possible levels or are in process of

India wont keep their whole Aircraft in Front Line Air Bases except for Kashmir Air Base where India would keep their MKIs while other MIGs are still not a big challenge for Pakistan as Pakistan has Equivalent Aircraft available to it and after JF17 are fully Inducted our Pakistan can Retire all those 3rd Generation Mirages once in for all. As for MKIs I dont think India would like to show it off that much in war with Pakistan as they are more strategic Options against China rather then Pakistan even if they show it off then all PAF needs is to convert the fight from BVR to WVR which means losing some AC but once the fight becomes WVR Pakistan becomes way more Dangerous for MKI even.

 

[GURU DUTT]

If Pakistan has put their Assets close then they have put their Fire Power close as well and that is why India is applying Cold Start Strategy rather then Full Scale War which India has always known for so in this sense Pakistan's Defensive Maneuvers are also better since Pakistan has been Gaining lot of Experience and Battle Ready Army Units by Zarb-e-Azb as well.
If India can Moniter Pakistan's Activity then Pakistan can also Monitor Indian Front Line Activities as well in fact much better then India since Pakistan has more AWACS and that too in multiple Platforms.
India wont keep their whole Aircraft in Front Line Air Bases except for Kashmir Air Base where India would keep their MKIs while other MIGs are still not a big challenge for Pakistan as Pakistan has Equivalent Aircraft available to it and after JF17 are fully Inducted our Pakistan can Retire all those 3rd Generation Mirages once in for all. As for MKIs I dont think India would like to show it off that much in war with Pakistan as they are more strategic Options against China rather then Pakistan even if they show it off then all PAF needs is to convert the fight from BVR to WVR which means losing some AC but once the fight becomes WVR Pakistan becomes way more Dangerous for MKI even.

first of all what pakistanies think of COLD START DOCTROINE thing is for indian planerrs no such thing ever existed

now we are well versed with defnsive approach as pakistan in past was always a offensive force and we had made all owr arrangements on that scenario onli which many hub bul watan pakistanies want there establishment to do so dont worry we are more than ready

as for AWACS or ground and aerostat based AESA, PESA radars we have a huge innoventorry of that which your nation can onli dream of so lets not go there

as for owr bases we know what will be your first reaction in case of a war and we have made all arrangements for welcoming your assets ... rest keep debating .. no harm in it

 

[Gazi]

first of all what pakistanies think of COLD START DOCTROINE thing is for indian planerrs no such thing ever existed

Even if it doesnt India still not capable of Practicing Large Scale Attack on Pakistan and they are taking more interest in Limited Assault which was the whole Purpose of Cold Start.

now we are well versed with defnsive approach as pakistan in past was always a offensive force and we had made all owr arrangements on that scenario onli which many hub bul watan pakistanies want there establishment to do so dont worry we are more than ready

Pakistan has never been Offensive Force rather Pakistan was Offensive maneuvers during Warfare though as Pakistan has to protect its Territory by hook or by crook as we cant afford to loss it that is why we have the doctrine of Offensive Defense and as for India knowing our Strategy there is a difference between Knowing something and capable to getting rid of it as Pakistan forces are earning Experience in Counter Insurgency Operations while Indian Forces havent being utilized in last 10 years on a real Operation against enemy and are confined to Military Exercises only.

as for AWACS or ground and aerostat based AESA, PESA radars we have a huge innoventorry of that which your nation can onli dream of so lets not go there

In terms of AWACS India doesnt have huge inventory compare to Pakistan as Pakistan has 4 Swedish while 4-5 Chinese ZTK right now while for India its might be 5-7 Phantoms. AESA and PESA are included in MKIs which is the only thing that is point of concern for PAF that is why Pakistan is planing to include AESA in JF17blk3 and buying J10.

as for owr bases we know what will be your first reaction in case of a war and we have made all arrangements for welcoming your assets ... rest keep debating .. no harm in it

The problem is our Tactics have been Evolving quite Fast as few years ago there was no such thing as UCAVs in Pakistani Weaponry but today they are included as well so as other Tactical Options like Anza and now a days new Tanks procurement are under way and also another thing is Azam-e-Nau Exercise also presents lots of opportunity to test new Strategies of warfare in a very tightly secured environment from any sort of Espionage or monitoring.

 

[Ocelot]

India has a fleet of 200+ SU-30 MKI; what can just ~18 F-16 Block 52 do about it?

It's like one lion against 12 hyenas!

 

[NIA]

Even if it doesnt India still not capable of Practicing Large Scale Attack on Pakistan and they are taking more interest in Limited Assault which was the whole Purpose of Cold Start.
Pakistan has never been Offensive Force rather Pakistan was Offensive maneuvers during Warfare though as Pakistan has to protect its Territory by hook or by crook as we cant afford to loss it that is why we have the doctrine of Offensive Defense and as for India knowing our Strategy there is a difference between Knowing something and capable to getting rid of it as Pakistan forces are earning Experience in Counter Insurgency Operations while Indian Forces havent being utilized in last 10 years on a real Operation against enemy and are confined to Military Exercises only.
In terms of AWACS India doesnt have huge inventory compare to Pakistan as Pakistan has 4 Swedish while 4-5 Chinese ZTK right now while for India its might be 5-7 Phantoms. AESA and PESA are included in MKIs which is the only thing that is point of concern for PAF that is why Pakistan is planing to include AESA in JF17blk3 and buying J10.
The problem is our Tactics have been Evolving quite Fast as few years ago there was no such thing as UCAVs in Pakistani Weaponry but today they are included as well so as other Tactical Options like Anza and now a days new Tanks procurement are under way and also another thing is Azam-e-Nau Exercise also presents lots of opportunity to test new Strategies of warfare in a very tightly secured environment from any sort of Espionage or monitoring.

How many JF-17 and F-16 do you have ?
plz don't mention future coming birds ..I m asking about present data..

 

[Windjammer]

India has a fleet of 200+ SU-30 MKI; what can just ~18 F-16 Block 52 do about it?

It's like one lion against 12 hyenas!

There's always been a disparity of around 4:1 between the two airforces.
Besides it's a fact that the service availability for the MKIs is less than 60%.

 

[Styx]

Pakistan forces are earning Experience in Counter Insurgency Operations while Indian Forces havent being utilized in last 10 years on a real Operation against enemy and are confined to Military Exercises only.

I don't think any experience gained bombing taliban rats in their caves is going to count for much in a real theatre vs India.

 

[NIA]

I don't think any experience gained bombing taliban rats in their caves is going to count for much in a real theatre vs India.

Talibs don't have enough anti- aircraft missiles to hit back...but we have.

 

[Gazi]

I don't think any experience gained bombing taliban rats in their caves is going to count for much in a real theatre vs India.

Enemy is a key word here Military Operations give experience of operating in Battle Field against Enemies where Mistakes are not tolerated while Military Exercises are all about Friendlies learning from each other by creating different scenarios only.

How many JF-17 and F-16 do you have ?
plz don't mention future coming birds ..I m asking about present data..

Pakistani F16 numbers are like 76 right now and JF 17 are 100+ AFAIK.

Talibs don't have enough anti- aircraft missiles to hit back...but we have.

Anti Aircraft Weapons arent consider here the Precision Strike capabilities are what important in such Operations and how well Country's precision weapons can perform is one of a major thing to concern when such Operations are done.

 

[Last Samuri]

Gazi.

Stop making things up

F16 of PAF are 76 IN nos AND are constant THREATED BY USA sanctions

Thunder is block 1 and 50 only


SU30MKI is over 200 AND SERVIABILITY means jack cause if war breaks out that servicability will shoot to near 100% as there are no sanctions UNLIKE PAF F16

plus don't forget 150 mig29k mig29smt & mirage 2000/5

 

[Styx]

Enemy is a key word here Military Operations give experience of operating in Battle Field against Enemies where Mistakes are not tolerated while Military Exercises are all about Friendlies learning from each other by creating different scenarios only.

ok, fair point.

I guess the commanders, ground crew and indeed the pilots and the whole military gains experience calling air strikes on real targets.. but still, those targets had no air defences, and the airspace was not contested.

 

[Gazi]

ok, fair point.

I guess the commanders, ground crew and indeed the pilots and the whole military gains experience calling air strikes on real targets.. but still, those targets had no air defences, and the airspace was not contested.

For Air Force Precision Strike Capabilities are Measured in such scenarios and if UAVs and UCAVs are available in the arsenal it becomes even more important for Air Force to check how well their equipment performs in a real Battle Field and how they could be improved as well.