Raider 21
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PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY
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The optimum fighter you need to achieve a assertive defensive posture IIs the flanker
It has the legs and payload to be a strike platform
Air supremacy platform and maritime support platform.
That's why India China and Russia have their huge flanker fleets
It has the legs and payload to be a strike platform
Air supremacy platform and maritime support platform.
That's why India China and Russia have their huge flanker fleets
CHI RULES
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Sorry Sir but beyond net u also have same capabilities as I have, the burden to prove JH7B lies on ur shoulder. Yes I confess as a civilian I have limited knowledge abt PAF but on other hand there are some aspects of defense which I may claim to know better then u or many others yet can't be discussed here. I am here to learn with open mind as I am living merely 10 KM away from LOC. I am worried about my country's defense as many of my family members have contributed in it at least related to Army no direct link to PAF. Yet from here and there I hear many things and some conclusions may be drawn. After past incidents with Mirage III, it was explained on this forum that Pak Mirage-III faced many issues due to improper use of spares. Many incidents included engine failures with loss of many precious pilots same is case with F7s.
Many people here continuously supporting Mirage-III despite that it has lost it's advantages because they have passed there useful life. The Mirage V has much better record then Mirage III. Similarly F7s have also passed their life.
Hope now you understand my point how it looks to live on the edge. As per intellect I can humbly inform u that in area where I am serving I have sufficient know how with national and international certifications.
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The seniors in age i.e people like MK usually use harsh language instead of explaining their points with solid facts. In subjective discussion any one can bash others. It is a forum for sake of knowledge rather then to wrestle with each other. Hope people with age shall follow eastern values rather than the western rough and tough style.
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Bilal Khan (Quwa)
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I think one essentially requires a huge Flanker fleet to maintain an effective Flanker force.
The way the Russians deal with after-sale spare parts and maintenance support, I don't think there's any other way to maintain enough combat-ready fighters than to buy a lot of them. Granted, the IAF is working towards bringing its % of operational Flankers up, but still, this is some 15+ years after inducting them (and decades of prior cache and experience with the Russians).
For all their restrictions, at least one can credit the West for incorporating every single detail (e.g. 10 years of after-sale maintenance and support) into the final price. It's always a sticker shock, but it gives clarity to one's outlay for both purchasing and maintenance for the next 10-15 years and to plan contingencies (e.g. deployments, exercises, etc) accordingly. @Oscar
denel
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Look friend, what is being noted by Mastan is valid. The mere fact that you give too much credibility to any one wearing a uniform having better gray cells is a shame on itself. If that is the case you can see the mess your country is in overall in terms of priorities - education, health, R&D, infrastructure etc. If these were correct, scientific panels and technical authorities would be the guides overall; armed forces are just a user of services not the makers.
For jH-7, he has pointed out the valid point; Rose aircrafts right now are solely to deliver Raad; they lack terrain following, range, payload. In comparison, you need a moderate force of specialised jH-7 and with the advent of Jh-7b with AESA and ability to carry a fairly heafty payload. Mastan took words out of my mouth when there was no concern of running A5s, Jh-7s provided a golden opportunity with B version. In the past when it was evaluated threats were different and neither were raads around or massive threat of offshore blockades.
Flankers are not the remedy given the poor supply chain and quality russians bring to the table.
The mere fact that PAF is running 50 year old jets that belong in graveyards shows the lack of foresight or insight overall not a matter of pride.
Bilal Khan (Quwa)
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I'd say timing and cost constraints are also factors.
Through the 1990s and early 2000s, the PAF had sought the Mirage 2000-5, which was (and still is) exceptionally well-equipped for strike operations (high-res SAR with GMTI, terrain avoidance, blind penetration capability, etc). But each attempt fell through. I know some might pin it on the PAF's unwillingness to go along with Bhutto and Zardari's corruption, but that was in the early 1990s for the Mirage 2000.
When the PAF attempted to get the Mirage 2000-5 in the mid-1990s, it had tried to get a contract through but Pakistan's economic constraints were not tenable enough.
The PAF tried again in the early 2000s, but at this point Dassault was shuttering the M2K-line. Then in the late 2000s, the PAF slotted-in 36-40 FC-20s (i.e. J-10A) for the strike role, but that too got canned due to a paucity of funds around that time.
araz
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The article is exact in its wording. We use M3/5s because we cannot afford to replace our aircrafts in a suitable time frame due to lack of resources and providers. This is more of a hinderance rather than our love for the plane. So yes we should be replacing these platforms but cannot due to finances and more doors being closed to us than are open. So we try our best to linger onwith the resources we have at hand. This is the crux of the issues.
A
araz
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Denel.
You and even Mastan have made valid points here. In the first instance do we actually need a deep strike specialized platform which is what JH7 B would be. The Chinese incidentally have stopped making them so the discussion is mute in any case. It is a testament to PAFs conviction that JH7 does not make the cut for the needs that no other country bought the platform. The Chinese themselves did not produce these planes in droves as they do and only 220 were produced. Now if you were to go to the Chinese they would offer you a J10 as a replacement or the J11/16 series and to be fair if it could be acquired it would be great. However we are on the verge of defaulting so purchases are a remote priority in any case. When things improve in 3/5 years do you still see a role for JH7? PROBABLY NOT.
PAF strategy appears to be to use CMs and sows for deep strike. The fact remains that an airforce that is not looking to last beyond 7 days with its current inventory will not waste resources on a specialized plane when in 5 years time much better options will become available. This in my view is the dilemma facing PAF.
A
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Sir thanks for your explanation but I feel really sad what sort of rough behavior/wording is used by Mr Mastan Khan. He is senior in age and has raised many valid issues in the past. But questioning the capability of one is ridiculous as I have never claimed any thing on this forum. Try to give what I read from here and there, even never disclosed any info what I have got from my direct contacts. I observe military movements daily living about 8-10 Km away from border. Have visited and met military guys on borders ranging from Kashmir to Narowal. I have confessed here that I know little about PAF as their bases are far way from Army installations at most places. Learn something by chit chat. Every one here is to learn and one should support his views with facts and figures rather than degrading others . How the hell Mr Mastan living in USA knows about PAF and their jets. It requires big heart to defend country with second hand materials whether it is in case of Military or PAF. Even or Navy is so far also not in good condition.
Bilal Khan (Quwa)
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Another factor is that, at the end of the day, it'll probably be cheaper to work on longer range ALCMs and SOWs that the JF-17 can carry than a new fighter platform. In fact, of the three areas AvDI is working on, better munitions is one of them (besides FGF and UAV).
Raider 21
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His content is great. He's just old that's all...
a true baba: but he does make some solid points which people knowing the in and outs of our Pakistani mindset(be it PAF or railways) can tell.
But until they are backed up by technical knowledge, they start to sound like rants.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Youngman---you have the ability to learn---but you chose not to---.
I wrote to you one time---there is so much material at my disposal at my local library---that the Paf wished that it had---.
MastanKhan
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Hi,
There is an old saying---if it ain't broke---don't fix it---but if it needs fixing---then do it in a timely manner---.
See---you kids still don't understand what is a major weapons system---what its purpose is---and why do you want to get one---.
I say it again---the purpose of a major weapons system is not to win you a war---but to get the enemy on the peace table---. The JF17 can neither win a war---and would not get the enemy on the peace table either---.
The enemy is only afraid of a strike on its flanks---Mumbai is the enemy flank---whatever the enemy does---it cannot protect mumbai from the strike of standoff weapons---.
What would those strike do---create panic and fear in an area which never saw the war for over a 100 years---. Do you know what happens in panic and fear---it creates restless---you know what happens then---it creates chaos---chaos creates anarchy---the enemy does not have enough police resource in that city to control chaos and anarchy.
That place is the money center of the enemy---the achilles heal---.
That is the purpose of a heavy strike aircraft------. The J15 andf J16's cannot do that job and neither the SU35's---. They don't have the ability to fly low---.
Over the years---I have narrated multiples times the scenarios---the route---the strike---.
I have also explained---that in this day and age of modern battle---one smart weapon is not enough---because the enemy also has smart defences---you need minimum two per aircraft---that gives each weapon a 50/50 % chances of getting thru---.
I have also explained multiple times the video that Aamir Hussein posted here---the one hour video. I have explained many a times that not all weapons systems have to be the latest and modern in design---the proven fact is that the US has updated and upgraded older equipment---re-furbished the frame and skin---and given it a new life with modern electronics to launch smart weapons in smater way than before---.
The battle strategy---the battle planning---has changed a lot on many a fronts but stayed the same at other fronts---.
But there is one truth that has changed---just pure numerical superiority would not make the difference anymore---some of it has to be technical superiority as well.
Those who understand that---will stay ahead---.
There is an old saying---if it ain't broke---don't fix it---but if it needs fixing---then do it in a timely manner---.
See---you kids still don't understand what is a major weapons system---what its purpose is---and why do you want to get one---.
I say it again---the purpose of a major weapons system is not to win you a war---but to get the enemy on the peace table---. The JF17 can neither win a war---and would not get the enemy on the peace table either---.
The enemy is only afraid of a strike on its flanks---Mumbai is the enemy flank---whatever the enemy does---it cannot protect mumbai from the strike of standoff weapons---.
What would those strike do---create panic and fear in an area which never saw the war for over a 100 years---. Do you know what happens in panic and fear---it creates restless---you know what happens then---it creates chaos---chaos creates anarchy---the enemy does not have enough police resource in that city to control chaos and anarchy.
That place is the money center of the enemy---the achilles heal---.
That is the purpose of a heavy strike aircraft------. The J15 andf J16's cannot do that job and neither the SU35's---. They don't have the ability to fly low---.
Over the years---I have narrated multiples times the scenarios---the route---the strike---.
I have also explained---that in this day and age of modern battle---one smart weapon is not enough---because the enemy also has smart defences---you need minimum two per aircraft---that gives each weapon a 50/50 % chances of getting thru---.
I have also explained multiple times the video that Aamir Hussein posted here---the one hour video. I have explained many a times that not all weapons systems have to be the latest and modern in design---the proven fact is that the US has updated and upgraded older equipment---re-furbished the frame and skin---and given it a new life with modern electronics to launch smart weapons in smater way than before---.
The battle strategy---the battle planning---has changed a lot on many a fronts but stayed the same at other fronts---.
But there is one truth that has changed---just pure numerical superiority would not make the difference anymore---some of it has to be technical superiority as well.
Those who understand that---will stay ahead---.
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