Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

[iLION12345_1]

PA will selecting one or more

Just one most likely, no need to get multiple systems In this case, they’re competing against each other.

 

[ali_raza]

We already did…they had 221 guns, not all of them would be in the same condition. PA got more than half of them. PA has more than 500 M109 systems. A5, modernized A2s (being further modernized to A5) and M109L (Italy)

the ones we got were crispy new barely used
i think we got 90 pieces we should have got the whole kot

 

[iLION12345_1]

the ones we got were crispy new barely used
i think we got 90 pieces we should have got the whole kot

122-130 pieces from Italy. More were offered, Maybe we got them too. Not all were in such good condition and not all were needed, as I said PA has nearly 500 such Guns + 60~ M110A2s.

Add to that the new wheeled SPGs that are coming, considering the first trials requirements were for nearly 250 systems, we can assume we will get at this many guns, but most likely more than this.

comapre this to India which operates fewer than 200 SPG systems…PA has always had the edge in SP systems, I guess part of that is down to doctrine, as india has a similar major edge in towed artillery systems.

 

[ali_raza]

122-130 pieces from Italy. More were offered, Maybe we got them too. Not all were in such good condition and not all were needed, as I said PA has nearly 500 such Guns + 60~ M110A2s.

Add to that the new wheeled SPGs that are coming, considering the first trials requirements were for nearly 250 systems, we can assume we will get at this many guns, but most likely more than this.

comapre this to India which operates fewer than 200 SPG systems…PA has always had the edge in SP systems, I guess part of that is down to doctrine, as india has a similar major edge in towed artillery systems.

why don’t we go the route of a6 or a7
which has 52 caliber and mrsi options

 

[iLION12345_1]

why don’t we go the route of a6 or a7
which has 52 caliber and mrsi options

Do you think the US would sell those to us a day after putting us on a list of countries that uses child soldiers…? US is pissed at us because they couldn’t bully us into giving them what they want.

Also just to be clear, the M109A7 is a very poor system for the modern era, so are the systems derived from it like the K9 and the AS90, while they do improve a bit on its ROF issue (all M109s have a sustained ROF of 1 and a maximum of 4) because it’s fundamental design is outdated and it’s low range issue remains. The most all three of those can shoot to is 40KM, not a big improvement over M109A5 (34KM) Meanwhile something like the modern Russian 155mm SPG can shoot as far as 80KM at 8 RPM, while the German one can shoot at 10 RPM upto 67 KM, the chinese one can shoot upto 100km at 10 RPM.

It’s a good thing we’re not getting the M109A7 or any derivative of it but are getting a modern SPG which will have similar ranges and ROFs to the above mentioned systems, why PA wants wheeled over tracked, well that’s gonna be down to doctrine, I’ll trust the experts that decided on that. I’ll go as far as to say india made a mistake buying K-9s…

For PAs use the M109s are a good system as we have a large number of them and we got many of them for cheap. The enemy has a small number of not-much-better Guns which will be surpassed by PAs next purchase anyways. Just like the Armored core, the core of artillery has outplayed the Indian army despite having less funds. Seems Those generals are good for something after all

 

[ali_raza]

Do you think the US would sell those to us a day after putting us on a list of countries that uses child soldiers…? US is pissed at us because they couldn’t bully us into giving them what they want.

Also just to be clear, the M109A7 is a very poor system for the modern era, so are the systems derived from it like the K9 and the AS90, while they do improve a bit on its ROF issue (all M109s have a sustained ROF of 1 and a maximum of 4) because it’s fundamental design is outdated and it’s low range issue remains. The most all three of those can shoot to is 40KM, not a big improvement over M109A5 (34KM) Meanwhile something like the modern Russian 155mm SPG can shoot as far as 80KM at 8 RPM, while the German one can shoot at 10 RPM upto 67 KM, the chinese one can shoot upto 100km at 10 RPM.

It’s a good thing we’re not getting the M109A7 or any derivative of it but are getting a modern SPG which will have similar ranges and ROFs to the above mentioned systems, why PA wants wheeled over tracked, well that’s gonna be down to doctrine, I’ll trust the experts that decided on that. I’ll go as far as to say india made a mistake buying K-9s…

For PAs use the M109s are a good system as we have a large number of them and we got many of them for cheap. The enemy has a small number of not-much-better Guns which will be surpassed by PAs next purchase anyways. Just like the Armored core, the core of artillery has outplayed the Indian army despite having less funds. Seems Those generals are good for something after all

we pakistanis are intelligent lol
but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight

 

[Blacklight]

we pakistanis are intelligent lol
but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight

One that was publicly acknowledged was the A100.

Pakistan Army inducts A-100 rocket in MLRS of its Artillery Corps

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan Army inducted A-100 Rocket in Multiple Launch Rocket System of its Corps of Artillery.Inter Services Public Relations said “A- 100 Rocket has been indigenously developed...

www.thenews.com.pk

 

[Great Janjua]

Just a little observation.From my point,Why don't we induct ifvs,There are many roles an IFV can play,But one that suits this conversation the most.Is artillery,IFVS can be manipulated in many ways,One of the many possibilities is, hunter killer,And Would you believe it, Artillery support,Along with troop transport.And that is all in just one package, quite remarkable,To say the least. But our generals are stuck in the 1940s,With their battle taxis concept so who am I to say anything.

 

[ali_raza]

One that was publicly acknowledged was the A100.

Pakistan Army inducts A-100 rocket in MLRS of its Artillery Corps

RAWALPINDI: Pakistan Army inducted A-100 Rocket in Multiple Launch Rocket System of its Corps of Artillery.Inter Services Public Relations said “A- 100 Rocket has been indigenously developed...

www.thenews.com.pk

View attachment 759434
View attachment 759435
View attachment 759436

does it fire thermoberic projectiles?

 

[Great Janjua]

Yes.Its a modern artillery piece,Of course it has all the bell's,And whistle's.

does it fire thermoberic projectiles?

 

[Sayfullah]

Almost all modern SPs are 52 caliber. However the Nora B52 K2 does have a 25 liter chamber. Going with something very few nations in the world currently operate would make logistics and options very narrow.

What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?

 

[iLION12345_1]

we pakistanis are intelligent lol
but dear @PanzerKiel once told me we aren’t looking for range when we were discussing sh15 thread i mean yea range is good but once our arty units move along infantry 5-35 km is enough range to soften up the enemy unless we are thinking on deploying artillery on standoff ranges
and btw why aren’t we investing heavily in mbrls which seems to carry a punch and huge range @Blacklight

There are other factors apart from range too, as mentioned ROF is one, mobility is another. Range may not be the most important metric for PA but it’s obviously going to be in consideration. Plus the added requirements of automatic loading systems and remote firing and data receiving capabilities make it so that only some of the best systems will fill PAs needs. SH-15 btw does not have any of these added capabilities and according to Denels assessment, very low ground clearance as well, however knowing China I fully expect them to upgrade their System for PA so it can compete with the others.

and to add to the heavy MLRS, we are making A100 locally as black light said, we also have Guided heavy MLRS in the Fatah series. Fatah-1 was unveiled a while back…

What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?

To keep it simple, Caliber Is the length of the barrel, 54 being longer than 52. Longer gun means more range usually.

the liters are to measure chamber volume, the place where the ammo and charge will be loaded into before firing. Its measured in liters, more chamber volume means larger ammo and charges can be loaded and fired.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Just a little observation.From my point,Why don't we induct ifvs,There are many roles an IFV can play,But one that suits this conversation the most.Is artillery,IFVS can be manipulated in many ways,One of the many possibilities is, hunter killer,And Would you believe it, Artillery support,Along with troop transport.And that is all in just one package, quite remarkable,To say the least. But our generals are stuck in the 1940s,With their battle taxis concept so who am I to say anything.

This has been discussed a lot on the forum and it’s simply down to doctrine and cost. If PA could afford to buy thousands and thousands of Modern IFVs to carry all the troops Into battle, they surely would. But that’s simply too expensive, and if PA just buys a few then it can’t change its doctrine and those few won’t fit anywhere into the doctrine which involves lightly armed APCs dropping off troops near objectives and not being used in firefights. If you look around the world The modern IFV concept only works for small, rich countries or ones with alot of money.
India is a poor example in this case because their massive fleet of IFVs are older BMP2 models that won’t be much better protected or armed than our APCs carrying ATGMs, remote HMGs and RBS-70 systems. But since their doctrine is based off IFVs they went for those, and our doctrine is based off APCs so we went for those (PA is testing modern APCs for acquisition).

I don’t mean to be rude but kindly think a little for yourself before you start commenting negatively on PAs generals. If you’re willing to pay for all the IFVs please contact them so they army can follow your vision. It’s obviously not an ideal solution but we don’t have unlimited funds and options. PA does the best it can with what it has.

 

[PanzerKiel]

What’s the difference between 52 and 54 cal artillery guns and what’s the 25 litre chambers for?

Simply put, if there is 52 caliber gun of 155 mm Caliber..... You multiply 52 with 155 and then you'll get the length of the barrel itself.

 

[ali_raza]

Simply put, if there is 52 caliber gun of 155 mm Caliber..... You multiply 52 with 155 and then you'll get the length of the barrel itself.

sir whts the utility of m110 in modern times which we are holding on to