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Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

Saab 2000
Max cruising speed 682km/h (368kt) at 25,000ft, long range cruising speed 594km/h (321kt). Initial rate of climb 2250ft/min. Service ceiling 31,000ft. High speed range with 50 passengers and reserves 2185km (1180nm), range at long range cruising speed 2868km (1549nm).

Embraer ERJ-145
High speed cruising speed 833km/h (450kt). Service ceiling 37,000ft.
ERJ-145ER - Range with 50 passengers at long range cruising speed 2445km (1320nm).
ERJ-145LR - Range with 50 passengers at long range cruising speed 2870km (1550nm).


As per the specs Embraer is a better one!
 
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As per the specs Embraer is a better one!

P2BP,

Speed and altitude are one thing, fuel consumption is another (even if you IFR the two platforms being discussed above), the Embraer would be a more costly proposition. 630 km vs 850 km? If you need speed to get away from trouble (like fighter aircraft) neither of those is fast enough. But the AEW platforms come pretty heavily equipped with jamming and EW suites so they can interrupt the ingressing attack considerably.
 
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Hmm does anyone have a endurance for the Phalcon?

The figures for the saab 2000 and the Orion AWACS/AEW&C is 10 and 14 hours respectively.

The only figure I could get was for the similar A-50 which uses the same airframe.- 7 hours forty minutes.
 
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Hmm does anyone have a endurance for the Phalcon?

The figures for the saab 2000 and the Orion AWACS/AEW&C is 10 and 14 hours respectively.

The only figure I could get was for the similar A-50 which uses the same airframe.- 7 hours forty minutes.

Well Israeli Weapons states that the Phalcon radar for India will be mounted on an IL76 which is the same platform as the Chinese KJ2000 and the Beriev A50 so 7 hours 40 minutes is also the only figure I could find.

I'm guessing its due to a heavier platform being used.
 
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Well Israeli Weapons states that the Phalcon radar for India will be mounted on an IL76 which is the same platform as the Chinese KJ2000 and the Beriev A50 so 7 hours 40 minutes is also the only figure I could find.

I'm guessing its due to a heavier platform being used.
This is true, the actual endurance is better on the Saab 2000 than the Russian platform that the Indians are going for. However Phalcon is a very capable
OTH Radar.
 
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This is true, the actual endurance is better on the Saab 2000 than the Russian platform that the Indians are going for. However Phalcon is a very capable
OTH Radar.

True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.
 
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True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.

This means that if we look at both the packages as a whole i.e saab and phalcons, Saab turns out to be better as with longer endurance we can have coverage over a larger area as compared to indian phalcon, not to mention that because pakistan lacks depths, 24hrs surveillance could be achieved with limited input as compared to india.
 
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True Blain. But it is a factor that should always be taken into consideration. For example, with the current numbers of phalcons on order it would leave a shortfall of approximately 3 or 4 hours in coverage. (depending on the distance to and from the home base)
With the greater endurance you have a 24 hour coverage over a larger area.

True however why assume that IAF will only stop at the existing number (3) of Phalcons? I am pretty sure there will be follow-on orders. Secondly, with IFR, I am sure the number of hours in the air increases.
 
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AoA
Indian IL-76 for phalcons also have different engines than the previous in their inventory.
Not sure if it ends in more hours in air.
 
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True however why assume that IAF will only stop at the existing number (3) of Phalcons? I am pretty sure there will be follow-on orders. Secondly, with IFR, I am sure the number of hours in the air increases.

You are right of course....

However with the nature of South Asian defence procurements I always look at what's definitely there.



Even with IFR it would require the aircraft to move to a notional "safe zone" to refuel. (removing it from station for a period of time)

Also the issue of IFR with the IL-76 platform was regarded as being difficult Due to aerodynamic issues with with the radome.

"The A-50 was fitted with an inflight refueling probe, but reports indicate that the interaction of the slipstream of a tanker with the A-50's radome created such nasty buffeting that inflight refueling was difficult and demanded special pilot qualification."

The Ilyushin Il-76
 
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Hi,

You guys know that once these air sentrys are up in the air and working in tandem with the air force---the air, ground and naval warfare is going to change drastically. Just the outlook and approach of the combined armed forces is going to be different. Within a period of 5 years, nothing in the joint forces will be the same operations wise---as a matter of fact, within the next 5 years---the awacs will rule---the command and control system will be dominated by the air wing---it will not be a surprise any more if a general ranking officer of the army, navy and air force be directing the troop, man and machine movement.

For a reason, a long time ago, I had stated here that pakistan should have accepted the first package that the u s was giving to pakistan of the hawkeye e2c in the 80's.
 
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The PAF and the Saab 2000

By Ali Abbas Rizvi
4/18/2008
In the early Eighties, Soviet air intrusion into Pakistan airspace dramatically increased. In 1986, hostile helicopter-gunships entered Pakistan and flew over the town of Parachinar for half an hour, strafing targets at will. Pakistan turned to the United States and sought help, including E-3A Sentry AWACS, to thwart the Soviet designs. However, the Americans did not oblige the Pakistanis, though they offered a much downgraded E-2C Hawkeyes, a bid that was rejected. Nevertheless, the US airlifted Sidewinder air-to-air missiles

(AAMs) from NATO's reserved stocks and provided it to the PAF. The first PAF pilot who, despite strict rules of engagement, downed enemy aircraft in Pakistani territory was Squadron Leader Qadri, who rose to the rank of air commodore and was later tragically killed in an air crash as base commander of Minhas (Kamra).

Since then, advanced early warning and control (AEW&C) systems have been in the radar sights of the Pakistan Air Force.

There are three types of early-warning systems in the market. The first is called airborne early warning (AEW), which is rather outdated. The second is the airborne early warning and control system (AEW&C), which receives orders from the ground or from AWACS, the third and most advanced system.

The need for airborne early-warning increased manifold during the Nineties when the Americans stopped the supply of F-16Cs to the PAF under the Pressler Amendment. The PAF got into trouble while its traditional adversary, the Indian Air Force, bought one advanced weapon system after another. All the PAF could do was to watch and upgrade its Mirage IIIs and Vs, while it also bought F-7s and second-hand Mirage IIIs.

Now, luckily for the service, things are improving. It is in the process of getting more F-16s, has co-manufactured the JF-17 and, on the top of it, will soon receive its first AEW&C, the Saab 2000 turboprop ERIEYE aircraft.

In June 2006, the PAF had signed a deal for the supply of six Saab 2000s.

However, because of shortage of funds, the number of aircraft was revised to five. The first of the five such aircraft was rolled out on April 4, 2007, in Sweden and was being equipped with a full suite of mission systems, including radars and avionics. It will join the first PAF AEW&C squadron next year.

The ERIEYE, developed by the Ericsson Microwave Systems, comprises fixed, dual-sided and electronically scanned phased-array pulse-Doppler radar mounted on top of the fuselage. The ERIEYE uses a shorter-range but much more compact and advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) system. On the other hand, the Pakistan Navy has opted for the E-2C Hawkeye radar mounted on P3C Orion aircraft, which are based on the Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) system.

In August 2006, it had been reported that a prototype Y-8 Chinese AWACS, whose project was started after Beijing failed to get the Israeli Phalcon system in 2000, was in Pakistan, giving operational demos at the Chaklala airbase. The development was not surprising as Pakistan was also working on a project to jointly develop Sino-Pakistani AWACS.

The Saab AEW&C will provide the PAF with certain major advantages.

First, the Saabs, which have a ceiling of 31,000 feet, will be able to detect all aircraft taking off and landing at Indian airbases near the border. Apparently, they can also identify the kind of aircraft that have taken off and whether they are equipped with missiles and drop tanks, their altitudes and the direction in which they are headed. The radar capabilities and range of the Saabs are, of course, confidential, though it is expected that they may have a range of 350 kilometres and beyond. This will allow them to provide early warning in case of pre-emptive attacks from across the border. Second, these aircraft will coordinate with PAF aircraft flying at the same time from several air bases. The AEW&C system will track them and coordinate their movement.

Third, the Saab will allow Pakistani fighter aircraft to fly without operating their own radars and, thereby, making it difficult for unfriendly forces to track them. In case of hostilities, the Saabs would serve as force multipliers.

Fourth, the Saab AEW&C will coordinate with the army in missions for Cobra gunships that regularly take on extremist elements on the Pakistani-Afghan border besides airlifting operations.

Fifth, the AEW&C will be able to check air violations by enemy aircraft and launching of missiles within its range. Also, it can apparently track communications on the ground, troops movement, radars, missile sites and movement of ships.

However, at the same time, operation of an AEW&C system, like the Saab 2000, is not exactly a piece of cake for the service. As it is, AEW&C is a precious asset for any air force, especially the cash-starved PAF, and as such, it has to be well-guarded both at the ground and in the air. Accordingly, it has to fly in the company of several advanced interceptor aircraft that can take on any adversary.

But another threat that AWACS would face would be from surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) and beyond-visual-range BVR missiles, which can be fired from across the border. Nevertheless, with two Rolls Royce AE 2100 engines, Saab 2000 remains one of the fastest turboprop aircraft in the world, achieving a cruise speed of 665 km/h (360 kt), though with a mounted antenna on its top, this speed may not be possible.

Yet another issue is that enemy forces could try to jam the equipment on board the Saab 2000. Therefore, the AEW&C will have to have on board jamming-resistant system with strong electronic countermeasures. Because the ERIEYE is an extremely fast scan radar, it would strongly resist electronic countermeasures.

Also, the Saab 2000 has to have long endurance and be able to stay at its station. For example, the E-3A Sentry, the most advanced AWACS in the world, has endurance of up to eight hours. While the PAF has been also trying to procure tanker aircraft, it is not known if the Saab turboprop would have refuelling capability. Nevertheless, the manufacturers claim that "the Saab 2000 aircraft is able to incorporate high-speed dash with low-speed loitering capability, with inherent fuel efficiency that meets demanding AEW&C requirements for performing a 180-degree turn in less than 30 seconds with an endurance of more than 9 hours."

Meanwhile, the Indians will be getting this year the first of the three Israeli Phalcon systems as part of a $1.1 billion deal signed in 2003. The Phalcon system is to be mounted on Russian Il-76 aircraft which the IAF has sourced from Uzbekistan. The Il-76 aircraft, with in-flight refuelling, can stay at their stations up to 14 hours. Earlier, the Russians had offered the Indian Air Force Beriev A-50 Mainstay AEW aircraft, dispatching two of them to India in April 2000. However, the deal fell through. The Indians have revived their indigenous AEW system that had suffered a setback in 1999 when the HS-748 platform crashed, killing the crew and five top scientists.

The introduction of Saab 2000 ERIEYE would introduce a new dimension to PAF's defensive capabilities, providing it with a top-of-the-line platform to deal with modern-day threats.
 
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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ye-buyers.html




DATE:30/04/08
SOURCE:Flight International
Saab scans AEW market for new Erieye buyers
By Craig Hoyle

Saab has identified 30 potential new customers for its Erieye airborne early warning and control system within the next 10 years, and is stepping up efforts to promote its new Saab 2000 configuration, which will make its first flight within weeks for the Pakistan air force.

"Every country that's interested in AEW is a possibility for us," says Saab Microwave Systems' Saab 2000 AEW&C project manager Joakim Andersson, who declines to name specific candidates. The company has also previously succeeded in selling Embraer EMB-145- and Saab 340-based Erieye systems to Brazil, Greece, Mexico, Sweden and Thailand, and "expects a hit rate of about 50%" from its new campaigns, says vice-president surveillance systems Lars Karlén.

Believed to be Pakistan's first of five Erieye systems, the Saab 2000-based surveillance aircraft is currently undergoing ground testing in Linköping, where Islamabad's second example is also now in teardown. This pre-modification refurbishment programme will deliver an aircraft "more or less as new", says Andersson.


© Saab


Pakistan's aircraft has five on-board operator stations, versus three on modified EMB-145s and Sweden's two upgraded Saab 340s, a service ceiling of over 30,000ft (9,150m) and a mission endurance approaching 10h. The type also features enhanced engines, new generators, additional cooling for on-board mission equipment and a Saab HES-21 electronic warfare suite comprising laser, radar and missile approach warners and countermeasures dispensers.

The aircraft's fuselage has been strengthened to carry the Erieye radar, while its vertical tail has been extended to compensate for the payload, which provides 150e_SDgr coverage to each side of its conformal array. The Saab 2000's outer wing has also been strengthened to accommodate EW and signals intelligence sensors, and for the possible carriage of a towed radar decoy.

Saab says the use of new-generation radar transmit/receive modules with 60% higher output have increased the AEW range of the Erieye design, which can also now detect hovering helicopters and track small naval targets to a range of 350km (190nm).


© Saab


The global fleet of Saab 2000s now totals 58 airframes. Around 20 of these are owned by the Swedish manufacturer's aircraft leasing unit, which says the type has a projected operating life of at least 75,000 flight hours. "We have sufficient aircraft for a lot of different customers," says Andersson, adding: "Given typical utilisation, they are due to operate for the next 35 to 40 years."
 
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Batman,

The PAF made another error in judgement when they at first refused the hawkeye and then the A 10. If the hawkeye were purchased at that time, PAF would have had 20 plus years of awac experience under its belt. If the A 10's would have been accepted, pakistan woul;d have had a deicated ground attack aircraft as well---after the recieving the batch the pakistanis could have stated---this plane is no match against the russians----give us something else---like the F 16's---but no---PAF wants the best. In the end the PAF found out that the hawkeye was not a bad plane and nioether was the A10.

So, how bad is it for the PAF----just imagine after 24 years---we are still arguing about that old purchase.
 
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