Pakistani Military's Conventional Deterrence Against India's Cold Start Doctrine

[Ultima Thule]

Got to love Pakistani logic , when the entire world says they lost a war they somehow claim otherwise. I'm sure your textbooks told your military defeated advance aliens militaries too

Butthurt use this on your butts

its a pain killer we won the war in the battle ground but lost in political table, we had destroy more Indian tanks, we capture more Indian territories , we destroy most your AF jets, we destroy dawarka port and most your ships, your Mighty AC not left to the port because of our navy threat (PNS Ghazi) and Please provide a single neutral post that's says India won the 65 war @patman

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

.
That's your Pakistani airforce major , so now you know more than your own military?


Yes mighty like cuba vs nato , U.S. vs north Korea , China vs Vietnam , China vs Bhutan, Russia vs Ukraine




*insert generic copy-paste reply*

Non wikipedia sources please. Have to be independent, reliable and irrefutable.

PS Are you seriously insinuating that india is just as powerful as america??????...........strawman just like your evidence.........lol.........

 

[Ultima Thule]

30%

you forget these Mr troller @patman

Ababeel
(MIRV)

BABUR-1

BUBUR-2

Exocet

ZARB/C-602

CM-400AKG

Ghauri

ABDALI

JF-17

SHaheen-3

Shaheen-2

Shaheen-1

NASR

so how you counter these weapons Mr insane @patman your false Indian shupa powa ego worth nothing @patman

 

[GriffinsRule]

Appreciate your detailed response. My thoughts on this subject -

• 
  
• Up to late 1960s the conventional disparity was insufficient for India to 'cull' Pakistan. Although india still had superiority in numbers but it was nominal and this is reflected in how Pakistan was the aggressor in 1965.
• 
  
• However from 1971 the disparity increased. From mid 1970s onwards was opportune time for India to destroy - not conquer/annex as that is beyond India but to destroy the Pakistani state. [India has over half a million soldiers stationed to pacify few million Kashmiri's]. This window lasted from 1971 on to early 1990s. Nothing ever is perfect. No war as been fought in ideal circumstances. From perspective of India it was 'the moment' missed. I think this was down to internal weakness in the Indian society. Both countries are not suited for long term, heavy wars of attrition like Europe/Japan were in both WWs.
  
• 
  
• Post 1998 and the nuclear dawn the possibility of India attacking or posing a existential threat is in my opinion zero. I cannot see India attacking now when the cost of such mis-adventure would be nuclear war. If India did not do this when the 'window was open' from 1971 to 1990 when the military disparity was the greatest the chance of that now is zero.
• 
  
• However I think the rivalry between both countries will focus on geo-strategy and the economic field. The critical factor will be which of these countries creates a fair, social, economic, safe, secure and stable internal environment. This is where the rivalry will be played out. This is where Pakistan is losing. We have a reputation as terrorist, radical, misogynist, crazed country on earth and this is reflected in the stock value of Pakistan's passport which lingers right at the bottom with Afghanistan and Syria. This makes Pakistam's position in my estimation even worse then both those countries. At least they are at war and have foreign armies trampling ove them.
  
• 
  
• The problem in Pakistan is there is little appetite to tackle this problem. To begin with the in your face use of religion as a commodity has to stop. But the problem is the very elite that should tackle the problem has been cultivating this beast. Religion has been the red flag that has been used to distract and hypnotize the bull called the Pakistani masses. However the good news is with increasing Chinese influence we have a outside party that has the means and the reasons to push the elite to sort out the madhouse we call Pakistan. I am placing lot of store on the China factor in taming the rampent fake religious piety that has wrought destruction and obfuscated from what needs to be done instead Pakistan. Some of that is apparent even on this forum.
  
• 
  
• To be sure Pakistan should have enjoyed the nuclear dividend. That is with MAD in place and Indian threat efectively checkmated the conventional size of Pak military should have been drastically cut by as much as 30%. We do not need masses of armour when huge tank protracted tank battle will not take place as soon the nuclear 'click' will kick in. However because of no civilian oversight of Pak armed forces and the institutional inertia - no organizations likes saying 'look we need to downsize' this has not happened. The resources saved could be spent on beefing up internal security forces and establish the effective law and order within the country.
• 
  
• I think the rivalry between Pakistan and India is not neccassrily a bad thing. Only we need to focus on the economic, health and sports. This can only help both peoples to rise. We have too many poor people.
  
• 
  
• On another note your post brings out what I have been saying for a long time. Pakistan does have a geographic reality underpining it. You alluded to it. The Indus Valley is effectively differantiated from rest of South Asia by first the Rann of Kutch which I have shown as red and the [ii]Thar Desert which I have shown as yellow. Only in the northern portion of both Punjabs does the divide become fuzzy. For vast majority of Pakistan/India border there exists the real physical differantiation.

@Cybernetics @Joe Shearer

Very well put. Thank you for this post and stating the situation in such simple and clear terms.

 

[Ultima Thule]

• 1947
• 1965
• 1971
• siachen glacier
  
• 1999

1947 we took part your Kashmir you did nothing instead your PM crying loud at UN but correct your information that war was not held in 1947 but 1948
in 1965 we won in almost every field from AF to navy but lost in political tables
in 71 you won in east Pakistan but in west Pakistan we defend well and you again failed miserably
Siachen glacier you occupied that Pakistani area like a backstabber
in 1999 there was no win or loss for both parties superpowers solve that problem
So get out your false Indian superiority/ shupa powa ego @patman

Aha yes , 1 Pakistani xyz = 7 indian xyz logic . Sorry but I can't reason with retarded logics

And your logic is not retard you brain fart @patman what fool you're Mr stupid @patman
And get out of your false Indian superiority/ shupa powa ego Mr insane @patman and read the history of India/Pakistan wars from a neutral sources Mr stupid @patman

Aha yes , 1 Pakistani xyz = 7 indian xyz logic . Sorry but I can't reason with retarded logics

And your logic is not retard you brain fart @patman what fool you're Mr stupid @patman
And get out of your false Indian superiority/ shupa powa ego Mr insane @patman and read the history of India/Pakistan wars from a neutral sources Mr stupid @patman

Aha yes , 1 Pakistani xyz = 7 indian xyz logic . Sorry but I can't reason with retarded logics

And your logic is not retard you brain fart @patman what fool you're Mr stupid @patman
And get out of your false Indian superiority/ shupa powa ego Mr insane @patman and read the history of India/Pakistan wars from a neutral sources Mr stupid @patman

 

[RiazHaq]

Your links are cancer tier propaganda , anyone who can google can debunk you .

In fact I'll do it now in front of everyone using international sources

BBC.

So you trust BBC and NY Times reporters more than Indian insiders like Defense Minister YB Chavan and his assistant RD Pradhan, author of "1965 War: The Inside Story" and Gen Harbakhsh Singh who commanded Indian forces?

http://www.riazhaq.com/2012/09/indian-insiders-view-of-1965-war.html

 

[Indus Pakistan]

1947 we took part your Kashmir you did nothing instead your PM crying loud at UN

Could Belgium take what is gifted to Germany and still have it after 70 years? Indeed Belgium aspires for more? This is India - a huge country nearly 7 times more populous then Pakistan.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Could Belgium take what is gifted to Germany and still have it after 70 years? Indeed Belgium aspires for more? This is India - a huge country nearly 7 times more populous then Pakistan.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Mr. Haq, She is a recognized subject matter expert and recognized authority by the highest of reputed think tanks in the word. Please don't compare yourself, your efforts and blog postings as even a remotely credible alternative source. Once again there are several credible Pakistanis who could do it and stand in I'm sure. Look- I don't like to come across as rude, so I'll let this conversation be the last one from my end.

Recognized by who?

Most of her assertions are based on heresy and outright conspiracy theories. She does not even know what Pakistan looks like, does not even has any credible sources. Each and every article she writes is based on second hand sources. But i do agree, for the brainwashed Western and Indian masses she is a great source of info.

 

[Trango Towers]

With nearly seven times advantage in population/resources the asymmetry between the two countries in favour of India is same as tiny Belgium/Germany. And we know Germany looked at and used Belgium as a doormat to France etc. It never for second was contained by the Belgians.

Point being India should have 'squashed' Pakistan by now as Fair suggested but it has not. Indeed India has not even managed to retrieve Azad Kashmir from Pakistan let alone destroying Pakistan. Of course if we ignore when it joined the Banglas but we don't have any more Banglas.

Actually now that you are talking rationally....

Pakistanis and Indians are very stupid people. We were left the Kashmir problem so that we may continue to fight and kill each other whilst the goras make money. Both countries at grass root levels are extremely poor. Education healthcare and sanitation are almost non existence yet both countries spend vast sums annually on ensuring mutual destruction.

 

[takeitwithyou]

Recognized by who?

Most of her assertions are based on heresy and outright conspiracy theories. She does not even know what Pakistan looks like, does not even has any credible sources. Each and every article she writes is based on second hand sources. But i do agree, for the brainwashed Western and Indian masses she is a great source of info.

You may despise her because of her tone directed at Pakistan. But she is accepted as an authority in the s Asia region by her peers and by global foreign policy think tanks.

 

[patman]

Butthurt use this on your butts View attachment 458690
its a pain killer we won the war in the battle ground but lost in political table, we had destroy more Indian tanks, we capture more Indian territories , we destroy most your AF jets, we destroy dawarka port and most your ships, your Mighty AC not left to the port because of our navy threat (PNS Ghazi) and Please provide a single neutral post that's says India won the 65 war @patman

least three independent authors believed India had an upper hand in the war

Non wikipedia sources please. Have to be independent, reliable and irrefutable.

PS Are you seriously insinuating that india is just as powerful as america??????...........strawman just like your evidence.........lol.........

Are you implying India does not control d Saichine glacier?

you forget these Mr troller @patman
View attachment 458694
Ababeel
(MIRV)
View attachment 458695
BABUR-1
View attachment 458696
BUBUR-2
View attachment 458697
Exocet
View attachment 458698
View attachment 458704
ZARB/C-602
View attachment 458699
CM-400AKG
View attachment 458700
Ghauri
View attachment 458701
ABDALI
View attachment 458702
JF-17
View attachment 458703
View attachment 458705 View attachment 458706
SHaheen-3
View attachment 458707
Shaheen-2
View attachment 458708
Shaheen-1
View attachment 458709
NASR
View attachment 458710
so how you counter these weapons Mr insane @patman your false Indian shupa powa ego worth nothing @patman

Shaurya>>>Shaheen
Brahmos >>> BABUR
Agni>>>Ababeel
Dhanush>>>Nasr
Prithvi>>>ABDALI
K4>>>>ZARb
Rafael>>>>j17

Not to mention

• Nag
• Trishula
• Akash
• Astra
• Parahar
• K15
• Barak

Pakistan doesn't have any answer for most of Indian variants ,Brahmos is the fastest cruse msl in the world

1947 we took part your Kashmir

You invaded princely state of Kashmir not India , we kicked Pakistan out & conquered 70% of Kashmir

in 1965 we won in almost every field from AF to navy but lost in political tables

• It was a surprise attack
• Pakistan failed its invasion
• Indian troops reached Pakistan's capital
• India was recovering form 1962 war with China

Even then Pakistan lost lol you had 2 years of prep time , element of surprise to fight a country that just fought China the 2nd largest military in the world

in 71 you won in east Pakistan but in west Pakistan we defend well and you again failed miserably

• 94 aircrafts blown up
• Karachi port ws destroyed
• Pakistani airfield crippled
• 9000 killed
• 97,368 captured
• 2 Destroyers
• 1 Minesweeper
• 1 Submarine
• 3 Patrol vessels
• 7 Gunboats destroyed
• Made pak sign simla agreement making Kashmir dispute free from u.n involvement

Siachen glacier you occupied that Pakistani area like a backstabber

Says the country that surprised attack every war with India

1. 47 invaded kashmir ,while denying it to Kashmir king
2. 65 surprise attacked a war wounded India
3. 71 surprise attacked indian airbase
4. 99 surprise attacked j&k while denying involvement to the u.n

Fyi
That's a indian territor where Pakistan started encroaching

in

1999 there was no win or loss for both parties superpowers solve that problem

Failed invasion is a failure

And your logic is not retard you brain fart @patman what fool you're Mr stupid @patman
And get out of your false Indian superiority/ shupa powa ego Mr insane @patman and read the history of India/Pakistan wars from a neutral sources Mr stupid @patman

Thirty percent

 

[notorious_eagle]

You may despise her because of her tone directed at Pakistan. But she is accepted as an authority in the s Asia region by her peers and by global foreign policy think tanks.

I despise her for her lack of knowledge and lacking any academic knowledge or integrity, not for her tone. Any paper or article she has written has been debunked millions of times. But than again, good for her to milk these so called global foreign policy think tanks and presenting herself as an authority. Just look how successful they have been in Afghanistan and the Middle East.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

least three independent authors believed India had an upper hand in the war


Are you implying India does not control d Saichine glacier?

Shaurya>>>Shaheen
Brahmos >>> BABUR
Agni>>>Ababeel
Dhanush>>>Nasr
Prithvi>>>ABDALI
K4>>>>ZARb
Rafael>>>>j17

Not to mention

• Nag
• Trishula
• Akash
• Astra
• Parahar
• K15
• Barak

Pakistan doesn't have any answer for most of Indian variants ,Brahmos is the fastest cruse msl in the world




You invaded princely state of Kashmir not India , we kicked Pakistan out & conquered 70% of Kashmir

• It was a surprise attack
• Pakistan failed its invasion
• Indian troops reached Pakistan's capital
• India was recovering form 1962 war with China

Even then Pakistan lost lol you had 2 years of prep time , element of surprise to fight a country that just fought China the 2nd largest military in the world

• 94 aircrafts blown up
• Karachi port ws destroyed
• Pakistani airfield crippled
• 9000 killed
• 97,368 captured
• 2 Destroyers
• 1 Minesweeper
• 1 Submarine
• 3 Patrol vessels
• 7 Gunboats destroyed
• Made pak sign simla agreement making Kashmir dispute free from u.n involvement

Says the country that surprised attack every war with India

1. 47 invaded kashmir ,while denying it to Kashmir king
2. 65 surprise attacked a war wounded India
3. 71 surprise attacked indian airbase
4. 99 surprise attacked j&k while denying involvement to the u.n

Fyi
That's a indian territor where Pakistan started encroaching

in

Failed invasion is a failure




Thirty percent

Again, please provide links to independent, irrefutable, reliable and honest evidence to support ALL your claims above otherwise they come across as strawman arguments.

 

[Shah_G]

You may despise her because of her tone directed at Pakistan. But she is accepted as an authority in the s Asia region by her peers and by global foreign policy think tanks.

She receives special favors from the top order for serving an agenda aimed directly at Pakistan and the muslim world. Her views and tactis were criticized by none other than JSOC, which oversees the drone program itself. She supports violence, instigate war, is biased, and criticized by many in the west. Fair merely a puupet, when she can't back her arguments, personal attacks from her side starts. Overall, she has no credibility, she serves a certain narrative based on her opinon, her debates are weak, with no evidence to back her arguments.