Pakistani Female Pilots, report by CNN

[Comet]

No. They earned it. There is no special quota for them.

Then they are most welcome to serve the nation.

 

[SeaGull]

Why is this so hard to grasp that this controversary is not about qualifying. Who is to deny the fact that lots of women have much sharper intellect than us male folks - and you never ever win an argument with a female.

This is about keeping your women and families safe and out of the harm's way -while we men fight out the bad guys. And when all the men go down fighting then only and only then the women come out to defend their home and their hearth and their honor.

This does not prevent the women in aiding their menfolk doing the battle in supportive roles.

 

[Comet]

Why is this so hard to grasp that this controversary is not about qualifying. Who is to deny the fact that lots of women have much sharper intellect than us male folks - and you never ever win an argument with a female.

This is about keeping your women and families safe and out of the harm's way -while we men fight out the bad guys. And when all the men go down fighting then only and only then the women come out to defend their home and their hearth and their honor.

This does not prevent the women in aiding their menfolk doing the battle in supportive roles.

I agree with you but with PAF its about having best of the best. If women can do better than men than why don't use them to protect our land?

 

[Muradk]

women should stay home have babies, Cook food , wash clothes thats it. Just jocking.
Come on guys we are all mature man and women here lets discuss this issue in a proper manner and lets keep religion out of it. That is one subject were none of us have the capability to justify one thing from another so lets use our brains and logic.
oh forgot I emailed some very very senior Officers about this topic they are the pioneers of PAF like Nur Khan lets see what they have to say about this.
And please lets be civil about it and no personal remarks its not a must that my views will always be welcomed and you have the right to argue but in a friendly manner. If someone says something which you don't like don't start acting like Ku Klux Klan relax you will live longer.

 

[blain2]

Bigotted arguments simply will not suffice, in fact they only hasten the day when discriminatory attitudes are completely rejected. Hiding behind the skirt of religion and using it as a mask to justify attitudes that have no place among civilized society will similarly not succeed.

Pakistani women have only proven their competence but also their patriotism and valor and they will continue to do regardless of who likes or does not.

Whether it's flying jets, to commanding units, in the AQir force, in the Army and in the navy, Pakistani women simply will not allow backward attitudes to define them, regardless of who likes it or does not.

I am fine with the spirit of what you say. However practically speaking, there are serious considerations and issues around having women in front-line fighting elements. Their capture and eventual treatment at the hands of the other side is a very serious issue both from a cultural and religious standpoint.

My own thought is that we need to get the uneducated 50% of the Pakistani population (I.e. the women) literate. Once they are educated then there is no way for their children to not get educated. As that happens, women will blaze their own trails as they have shown that they do not lack motivation nor the drive to get things done. Its a win-win to get the women educated.

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------

I agree with you but with PAF its about having best of the best. If women can do better than men than why don't use them to protect our land?

See above. Not every thing is based on performance, specially in cases of war.

 

[Arsalan]

so finally flying eagle you must be a happy person now!!
well i am really happy and all praise for them,
despite of my point that there are a thousand other things that they can do better then men and can prove more beneficial for the country in those roles, if that is what they want to do,, fair enough,,, God Speed!!

regards!

 

[sonicboom]

In most of the armies of early Islamic era the camp was also composed of womenfolk who were active participants as the caretakers of the injured and were ready and willing to defend themselves if attacked...

In the battle of Yarmuk a Muslim division was severely outnumbered and cutoff from by the huge roman army and after making a lot of sacrifices retreated back into the camp where the Muslim women came forward and urged their men to at least fight by their side...this made the men full of shame and they went back into line and fought like lions and repulsed the attack...

Nice post. But I tend to differ with you on that score as that isn’t what the discussion is about; the women in support role or working in general aren’t an issue. We’re talking about Pakistani women in combat.

Again, the question is not if woman can perform combat duty or not, because clearly they can. But does it include doing bad stuff like killing people? Is this some sort of accomplishment that woman should be proud of? Does the whole idea of women participation in combat makes any sense?

Just on the side note:

Moreover, women are physically not as strong as men, (although there are some that are stronger than some men) they tend to be smaller, don't have the same lung capacity or muscle mass. This is not a bias attack on women it is a scientific fact. Women also have issues of hygiene that cannot be ignored whereas a man can stay in the field for extended periods of time without bathing whereas women can suffer from many health problems and hazards if basic hygiene is ignored.

Additionally as pointed out by Sir MuradK in one of his posts; the issue of maternity leaves. Would you rather have 100 % of your fighting force on hand during war or would you rather have 50% of them as the remaining 50% are on maternity leave?

I think the Air Chief has made the right and correct decision. Those women were the best of the best and end result was less than satisfactory. Pakistan does not have the resources and money to waste on gimmicks and experiments. I don’t think Pakistani people are yet ready to send their mothers and daughters with men in close quarters on the battle front.

I would also like to say that the military is in the business of protecting the country and killing people and there is no room for worrying about equality and fairness.

Regards

 

[gambit]

Again, the question is not if woman can perform combat duty or not, because clearly they can. But does it include doing bad stuff like killing people? Is this some sort of accomplishment that woman should be proud of? Does the whole idea of women participation in combat makes any sense?

Why should the woman NOT be proud of killing an enemy? The military is about meting out death and destruction at the behest of the state against a perceived foe. Killing is part of a soldier's duties and he/she should be as proficient about it as possible. I am not talking about 'proud' as in a bloodthirsty way but in taking serious one's duties.

Moreover, women are physically not as strong as men, (although there are some that are stronger than some men) they tend to be smaller, don't have the same lung capacity or muscle mass. This is not a bias attack on women it is a scientific fact. Women also have issues of hygiene that cannot be ignored whereas a man can stay in the field for extended periods of time without bathing whereas women can suffer from many health problems and hazards if basic hygiene is ignored.

The hygiene issue is a valid point. However, modern day warfare created several aspects of combat where the individual, man or woman, is to some degrees removed from the actual killing action itself. Killing with a bladed weapon is much more personal than killing the enemy with a thrown spear or arrow; which in turn is more personal than killing at several hundred meters with a firearm; which in turn is more personal than killing from an armored vehicle that can lob an explosive charge from an out of sight position; which in turn is more personal than killing from an aircraft; which in turn is more personal than killing from an underground missile silo stationed several thousands km away. Modern day weapons systems not only shielded the killer from the battlefield but also removed much of the physical stress upon said killer. A woman fighter pilot is at risk of being captured or killed in combat, but far less so than a front line soldier. In this, the truth is the further away the killer is from the killed, the less 'personal hygiene' an issue. One could argue that modern warfare made it easier for women to become killers than before.

Additionally as pointed out by Sir MuradK in one of his posts; the issue of maternity leaves. Would you rather have 100 % of your fighting force on hand during war or would you rather have 50% of them as the remaining 50% are on maternity leave?

Also a valid point. However, this can be dealt with by requiring that the woman NOT be pregnant during her time in service. This opens up the freedom of choice can-of-worms but we are talking about the military, an institution that by nature MUST be dictatorial since it is burdened with, at the very least, the preservation of the country, which contains the land, the nation and the state, the loss of any element of this triad and the country cease to exist. I am not speaking from an academic position but as someone who spent a decade serving this institution.

 

[khanz]

an i astonished to see that y y they aree not inducting men in stead of women it is easy to fly a plane if woman can do all of us can do

the only thing which distingush men from women is

where intelligence fails courage takes start

you sound like a real life borat
I think your afraid of women

 

[All-Green]

Nice post. But I tend to differ with you on that score as that isn’t what the discussion is about; the women in support role or working in general aren’t an issue. We’re talking about Pakistani women in combat.

Again, the question is not if woman can perform combat duty or not, because clearly they can. But does it include doing bad stuff like killing people? Is this some sort of accomplishment that woman should be proud of? Does the whole idea of women participation in combat makes any sense?

Just on the side note:

Moreover, women are physically not as strong as men, (although there are some that are stronger than some men) they tend to be smaller, don't have the same lung capacity or muscle mass. This is not a bias attack on women it is a scientific fact. Women also have issues of hygiene that cannot be ignored whereas a man can stay in the field for extended periods of time without bathing whereas women can suffer from many health problems and hazards if basic hygiene is ignored.

Additionally as pointed out by Sir MuradK in one of his posts; the issue of maternity leaves. Would you rather have 100 % of your fighting force on hand during war or would you rather have 50% of them as the remaining 50% are on maternity leave?

I think the Air Chief has made the right and correct decision. Those women were the best of the best and end result was less than satisfactory. Pakistan does not have the resources and money to waste on gimmicks and experiments. I don’t think Pakistani people are yet ready to send their mothers and daughters with men in close quarters on the battle front.

I would also like to say that the military is in the business of protecting the country and killing people and there is no room for worrying about equality and fairness.

Regards

You have valid concerns and i am glad you have raised the more technical aspects instead of the others who think any man can do better what a woman can do...
these are genuine concerns and do impact the performance so cannot be ignored...of course there can be ways around these as well but it all depends how the armed forces are organized and what is their priority...
still i myself also know that whether by policy or by physical limitations or by the social point of view (all over the world) the chances of women even becoming 10% of the active fighting arms is very remote in most of the world.

However my point is very simple...it is not forbidden in Islam...

BTW i shall give a direct example now...

One of the bravest and most famous warriors under Khalid bin Waleed was Zarrar (the man after whom we named a tank).
Zarrar was the bane of Romans and their champions were even afraid to answer his calls for duel.
However, Zarrar was a bit impatient and once rushed into enemy forces and was severely outnumbered and captured.

To rescue him a force was sent under the command of Rafe (a very skilled and extremely brave commander) which intercepted the Roman contingent and a bloody battle ensued.

After sometime the reinforcements arrived from the Main Muslim Army and Rafe was astonished to see a Muslim cavalier leaving his formation far behind at breakneck speed and crashing into the Roman ranks, this cavalier clad in green was a sight to behold and all Muslims were amazed at his skill and the bloody mayhem which he caused in the Roman ranks...

The Romans eventually broke ranks and fled, leaving many dead and wounded in the battlefield. Khalid searched for the cavalier until he found him. By then he was covered in blood. He praised the skill and bravery of the cavalier (coming from Khalid it meant a lot) and asked him to remove his veil. But the warrior did not answer, and tried to move away. The soldiers did not let him do that. And everyone implored him to reveal his identity.

Upon this the warrior replied in a feminine voice:

"My prince, I did not answer because I am shy. You are a great leader, and I am only a woman whose heart is burning."

"Who are you?" Khalid insisted.

"I am Khawla Bint Al Azwar. I was with the women accompanying the army, and when I learnt that the enemy captured my brother, I did what I did."

Khalid praised the man who had such offspring like Zarrar and Khawla and when he sent a detachment after the fleeing Roman army, Khawla was at the forefront.

During Yarmuk, it was Khawla who led the counter attack and questioned the bravery of the Muslims division which had retreated back into the camp, on this the Muslims became furious and ravaged the Roman lines...the Muslim warriors narrated later...

"Our women were much harsher with us than the Romans. We felt that going back to fight and die was much easier than facing the fury of our women later on".

The role of women in early Islam was quite pivotal and not to be taken lightly.

While clearly women are the fairer sex and it is more appropriate for them to pursue other less bloody fields, there was no prohibition in Islam for a woman to fight though it was and is still not the norm all over the world.
Women are to me the symbol of respect and always to be talked to gently and to be handled with more care than men, this does not mean i consider them inferior in any way, it is just a nature for gentlemen to always show extra care for ladies.
By extension of same nature we do not want our mothers, sisters or wives to face the horrors of war in the front line and risk being capture and tortured by our enemies...still if some lady chooses this and is willing to die for her country...i may regret it but i shall salute her as a heroine and not as a misfit or a scandal...

On a personal note i would not want my daughter to become a fighter but that is my personal choice...if some lady becomes a fighter pilot then i wish her the best of luck without any prejudice.

 

[FlyingEagle]

so finally flying eagle you must be a happy person now!!
well i am really happy and all praise for them,
despite of my point that there are a thousand other things that they can do better then men and can prove more beneficial for the country in those roles, if that is what they want to do,, fair enough,,, God Speed!!

regards!

Thanks Bro but Its just the beginning...........Manzil kafi dor hay
Best Regards,

 

[sonicboom]

You have valid concerns and i am glad you have raised the more technical aspects instead of the others who think any man can do better what a woman can do...
these are genuine concerns and do impact the performance so cannot be ignored...of course there can be ways around these as well but it all depends how the armed forces are organized and what is their priority...
still i myself also know that whether by policy or by physical limitations or by the social point of view (all over the world) the chances of women even becoming 10% of the active fighting arms is very remote in most of the world.

However my point is very simple...it is not forbidden in Islam...

BTW i shall give a direct example now...

One of the bravest and most famous warriors under Khalid bin Waleed was Zarrar (the man after whom we named a tank).
Zarrar was the bane of Romans and their champions were even afraid to answer his calls for duel.
However, Zarrar was a bit impatient and once rushed into enemy forces and was severely outnumbered and captured.

To rescue him a force was sent under the command of Rafe (a very skilled and extremely brave commander) which intercepted the Roman contingent and a bloody battle ensued.

After sometime the reinforcements arrived from the Main Muslim Army and Rafe was astonished to see a Muslim cavalier leaving his formation far behind at breakneck speed and crashing into the Roman ranks, this cavalier clad in green was a sight to behold and all Muslims were amazed at his skill and the bloody mayhem which he caused in the Roman ranks...

The Romans eventually broke ranks and fled, leaving many dead and wounded in the battlefield. Khalid searched for the cavalier until he found him. By then he was covered in blood. He praised the skill and bravery of the cavalier (coming from Khalid it meant a lot) and asked him to remove his veil. But the warrior did not answer, and tried to move away. The soldiers did not let him do that. And everyone implored him to reveal his identity.

Upon this the warrior replied in a feminine voice:

"My prince, I did not answer because I am shy. You are a great leader, and I am only a woman whose heart is burning."

"Who are you?" Khalid insisted.

"I am Khawla Bint Al Azwar. I was with the women accompanying the army, and when I learnt that the enemy captured my brother, I did what I did."

Khalid praised the man who had such offspring like Zarrar and Khawla and when he sent a detachment after the fleeing Roman army, Khawla was at the forefront.

During Yarmuk, it was Khawla who led the counter attack and questioned the bravery of the Muslims division which had retreated back into the camp, on this the Muslims became furious and ravaged the Roman lines...the Muslim warriors narrated later...

"Our women were much harsher with us than the Romans. We felt that going back to fight and die was much easier than facing the fury of our women later on".

The role of women in early Islam was quite pivotal and not to be taken lightly.

While clearly women are the fairer sex and it is more appropriate for them to pursue other less bloody fields, there was no prohibition in Islam for a woman to fight though it was and is still not the norm all over the world.
Women are to me the symbol of respect and always to be talked to gently and to be handled with more care than men, this does not mean i consider them inferior in any way, it is just a nature for gentlemen to always show extra care for ladies.
By extension of same nature we do not want our mothers, sisters or wives to face the horrors of war in the front line and risk being capture and tortured by our enemies...still if some lady chooses this and is willing to die for her country...i may regret it but i shall salute her as a heroine and not as a misfit or a scandal...

On a personal note i would not want my daughter to become a fighter but that is my personal choice...if some lady becomes a fighter pilot then i wish her the best of luck without any prejudice.

Thank you.

Let me end the discussion on a funny note:

Anyone who thinks women are unfit for combat, has never been married or had a girlfriend.

 

[nightcrawler]

In my view:-
What is more graceful than being a son of a woman pilot

 

[Kamakazi 69]

During WW2, Russian women became ace fighter pilots.
There are many female fighter pilots in the USAF.
During Desert Storm, female USAF pilots flew close air support missions in A-10 Thunderbolts.

Stress is not an issue.

 

[Wingman]

Thanks buddy get me into trouble
I am one of those people right is right and wrong is wrong no matter the situation is.
So this it
All seven of them decided not to fly Fighters and all of them are now with VIP SQD and 6 SQD Chaklala. Because of these 7 women PAF stopped hiring women fighter pilots. Only 2 completed OCU and everyday they used to say we don't want to fly but their IPs were as bad as they were they made sure they complete the OCU after OCU there were sent to fighter SQD but they refused and the COAS made a decision which lead to a complete failure of the system that we are not ready for women at this time will take sometime but need more research into this . And now Young girls who have the passion are stuck because no more induction of female pilots. The rotten egg was Ambreen she qualified and then said no I don't want to fly Fighters which made PAF very upset spending all that money on training and the outcome Zero.

In our days back in the early 60s when you entered the academy they used to do a grading which meant you fly 10 missions and do a solo if not you are out it happens today as well but after a long period they should go back to the basics grading system it should be done in the first month so people who are not fit for flying or do not want to fly should be sent home.
The reason of her quiting on fighters she encountered an emergency and that was enough for her to say I am not doing it. Now she comes and say I am ready to die for my country.
I am just angry that 2 of them had the potential of becoming the first and them they decided not to.
There are a lot of reasons which played a negative role in this, A few things I will be candid about .
In our culture husbands don't take care of the children like in the west. All the fighter bases except Peshawar and karachi will hold there husbands with good jobs, rest of the bases they cant get a decent jobs.
Now on a serious note
during PMS you pull Gs and you will not wake up in the west the girls are pretty open about it but in our culture she will not tell anyone and after marriage they get pregnant they can't fly for 9 months after the delivery they cant fly for another 6 months , What is she going to do give the baby to the base commander and say feed him when he cries. She is on CAP or exercise and base calls her come back because munna needs milk or the OC flying is having a hard times changing the diapers. See these things are a reality and should have been thought before such a venture so PAF though well they said no so why not put them in Chaklala so for the rest of there lives they will stay in Transport and get married and the husband can get a job in Pindi or Islamabad.
Well now its open for discussion and you guys can chew up my As-. I ready.
a note in the 80s when I was with COAS Hakim Sahib we talked on all of these issues and during those days we could not support it, but today we can but we need girls who really want to fly not this **** Oh I love to fly and when they sit in a cockpit they say Holy **** what have I got my self into. We have girls who will do very well but they should be given a test in the first month or in other words given a taste of what they are getting into either they will love it or they will not but that will clearly tell PAF who is willing to take the next step. People let me tell you in 1990 the cost of training 1 GDP cadet up till OCU was 1 million$$ and now its more. Just because I look good in green coverall doesn't give me the excuse of getting into the system and quiting later on.

Yes I also agree 100%. Perhaps I have written in this forum discussing the same problems women likely to face... Pretty interesting narration by Sir Murad!!