Featured Pakistan will proceed on Kashmir issue with or without Saudi Arabia : SM Qureshi

[Meengla]

A nuclear armed country cannot or allowed to be turned into Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan or Yemen by International conventions.

Pakistani's nukes are extremely well protected. But don't be so sure about coordinated attempts by India-US-Israel combine to take out the Pakistani nukes. What helps Pakistan is the Chinese (and perhaps Russian) expertise. Pakistan has true allies! Not allies who could be sold off by a few billions $$ weapons purchase here or there, as India does.

My retort to you was about the utterly false notion of General Musharraf capitulating under just a phone call. As I said-- a false bravado by Musharraf in the Fall of 2001 would have led to Pakistan becoming a truly failed state. I gave examples above of the failed States.

Even if you are not old enough to understand what was going on in the Fall of 2001, you can look it up. Musharraf had no choice then and by his own admission, he knew what 9/11 had meant for Pakistan when he heard the news first. Reportedly, he asked the PAF chief as to how long the PAF could hold off an American attack: The Chief replied: After 3 hours, there won't be any PAF left. Pakistan had failed to neutralize Al-Qaida in Afghanistan especially after the USS Cole attack. Pakistan HAD tried but failed. There were skeletons in Pakistan's closet. Not that Pakistan ever liked Al-Qaida but they were 'guilt by association'. The Taliban rule in Afghanistan created that 'association'.

 

[PakFactor]

Coming back to the short-coming of Pakistan on Saudi demand for military support in their war in Yemen, although that we refused to send in troops, I wonder what the problem really is. I mean, understood that we did not send a part of the standing Army, we could just as easily have recruited, trained and armed tens of thousands of new recruits specifically for Saudia. It would have taken a few months but would have been a win-win situation for all.

Even now, I wonder why either this offer is not on the table for Saudi Arabia or why Saudi Arabia does not go for it. We can quite easily raise a standing Army of half a million or so for posting in Saudi Arabia under Saudi Military Command led by a serving Pakistani General. All that the Saudis have to do is fund the entire process, other than $$$ they don't even have to lift a finger.......plus, no intervention of the Government would be required simply because the job advertisement would clearly state employment with the Saudi Military.

About Zia and our failure to restrict Afghan refugees to refugee camps, in hind-sight, I totally agree. The weapons influx, the drugs, prostitution and later even organized crime is all thanks to that. But, in the middle of it all, we have to find a way to dig our way out.

Not possible, you can use money from Saudis to train and equip Pakistani citizens to fight on behalf of the Saudis - they’ll twist their geopolitical situation to a religious one. Who’ll take care of breadwinners family if they die? Right now the Saudis aren’t paying those who had to come back due to no work and back pay is on hold. The other critical issue those who are brainwashed by Saudi ideology can come back and cause a civil issue internally in the country, we’ve already suffered enough. With the situation in the Eastern border we will need all the abled bodies for our future survival.

As for training the Saudis I have to agree with @Meengla bhai you can’t train those who have been spoon fed or lived lavish life styles their whole lives, to weak to see blood let alone shed it. We Pakistanis are different we’ve been fighting for 70+ years our minds are wired differently to fight for country and religion, we came from the hood and still there, and we love to fight. May Allah bless this nation with more warriors.

 

[PakFactor]

Pakistani's nukes are extremely well protected. But don't be so sure about coordinated attempts by India-US-Israel combine to take out the Pakistani nukes. What helps Pakistan is the Chinese (and perhaps Russian) expertise. Pakistan has true allies! Not allies who could be sold off by a few billions $$ weapons purchase here or there, as India does.

My retort to you was about the utterly false notion of General Musharraf capitulating under just a phone call. As I said-- a false bravado by Musharraf in the Fall of 2001 would have led to Pakistan becoming a truly failed state. I gave examples above of the failed States.

Even if you are not old enough to understand what was going on in the Fall of 2001, you can look it up. Musharraf had no choice then and by his own admission, he knew what 9/11 had meant for Pakistan when he heard the news first. Reportedly, he asked the PAF chief as to how long the PAF could hold off an American attack: The Chief replied: After 3 hours, there won't be any PAF left. Pakistan had failed to neutralize Al-Qaida in Afghanistan especially after the USS Cole attack. Pakistan HAD tried but failed. There were skeletons in Pakistan's closet. Not that Pakistan ever liked Al-Qaida but they were 'guilt by association'. The Taliban rule in Afghanistan created that 'association'.

As I mentioned in my previous posts Pakistan dropped the ball in consolidating its hold after the Russian-Afghan War over Afghanistan. Had we tamed the beast after Zia, situation would have been different with OBL under Pak control we just let them run wild and paid the price.

I still feel the US wouldn’t have assaulted Pakistan had we not joined them. US basically defanged Pakistan in front of the world, and saw how fast we bend the knee.

 

[El Sidd]

Pakistani's nukes are extremely well protected. But don't be so sure about coordinated attempts by India-US-Israel combine to take out the Pakistani nukes. What helps Pakistan is the Chinese (and perhaps Russian) expertise. Pakistan has true allies! Not allies who could be sold off by a few billions $$ weapons purchase here or there, as India does.

My retort to you was about the utterly false notion of General Musharraf capitulating under just a phone call. As I said-- a false bravado by Musharraf in the Fall of 2001 would have led to Pakistan becoming a truly failed state. I gave examples above of the failed States.

Even if you are not old enough to understand what was going on in the Fall of 2001, you can look it up. Musharraf had no choice then and by his own admission, he knew what 9/11 had meant for Pakistan when he heard the news first. Reportedly, he asked the PAF chief as to how long the PAF could hold off an American attack: The Chief replied: After 3 hours, there won't be any PAF left. Pakistan had failed to neutralize Al-Qaida in Afghanistan especially after the USS Cole attack. Pakistan HAD tried but failed. There were skeletons in Pakistan's closet. Not that Pakistan ever liked Al-Qaida but they were 'guilt by association'. The Taliban rule in Afghanistan created that 'association'.

How old are you and where were you when WoT was imported in Pakistan which resulted in a 11 year long civil war?

Do not give me how old and how young argument if you have not lived through it yourself.

A political party which cannot run the internal affairs would not be entrusted with foreign affairs either.

This same political party first advocated against it and then blamed Pakistan for God damn creating Al Qaeda. Such suicidal tendencies are not needed in state affairs.

 

[Mamajama]

As for training the Saudis I have to agree with @Meengla bhai you can’t train those who have been spoon fed or lived lavish life styles their whole lives, to weak to see blood let alone shed it. We Pakistanis are different we’ve been fighting for 70+ years our minds are wired differently to fight for country and religion, we came from the hood and still there, and we love to fight. May Allah bless this nation with more warriors.

I thought the arab pilots from the emirates were some of the best in the middle east? I thought in yemen it was Yemeni army doing most of the fighting not Saudi army.

 

[PakFactor]

I thought the arab pilots from the emirates were some of the best in the middle east? I thought in yemen it was Yemeni army doing most of the fighting not Saudi army.

Having new equipment and flying it in international exercises in the case of Emirates isn’t enough. Their air forces can’t target properly and have struck civilian targets hundreds of times. We have few countries involved in Yemen all Arab not one of them can plan a proper battle field strategy, you’ve probably seen the video how a column of armour was decimated by Houtis foot soldiers with AKs and RPGs. Arab militaries are more run way models than a fighting force.

 

[Meengla]

How old are you and where were you when WoT was imported in Pakistan which resulted in a 11 year long civil war?

Do not give me how old and how young argument if you have not lived through it yourself.

A political party which cannot run the internal affairs would not be entrusted with foreign affairs either.

This same political party first advocated against it and then blamed Pakistan for God damn creating Al Qaeda. Such suicidal tendencies are not needed in state affairs.

Firstly, you really need to get rid of the habit of talking in riddles in this forum! What 'political party' are you talking about??? Riddles don't make you smart. It makes you like a wanna-be smart guy.

As to your argument about how 'old' I am. I like to call myself how 'young' I am! I have memories from the Fall of Dhaka to this day! I have seen how Pakistan was transformed after 1979 to where it became until Musharraf started undoing the damage of Zia ul Haq. A big transformation which would be related to by some Iranian who would have lived from the Shah era to now, but, thankfully for Pakistan, even Zia was not quite a fanatic like the Iranian Mullahs. Maybe there is some moderation in the soil of the Subcontinent still there. But still, Pakistan WAS a tolerant Sufi country for the most of its history. It were the bigots like Zia who turned it to a Wahabi brand of Islam.
And, to repeat: You are deluded to think that Musharraf had any choice in the Fall of 2001.

 

[Hayreddin]

These bunch of arab gangsters time is soon over . What do they think us ,, a banana republic ? .Yes pakistan is ecnomicaly weak but time is gonna change soon beside that we are much more better than them . What do they have except oil and dubai port ? Now we got both gawadar and oil reserves near karachi .
Yes as muslim we would love to sacrifice our lives, our country thousand times for Makkah and Madina but never for greedy al e Saud . They misunderstood our janoon and love for sacred land by themseleves and they have confused our nation with their slaves like nawaz shareef and pajd mullahs . To hell with Al e saud and to hell with greedy devilish kings of middle east .
Their time is over time of pakistan has begun inshaAllah .

 

[Mav3rick]

You have used the word 'easily' at least twice in your post. I stay away from hard-code defense subjects about forces and hardware so not sure. You would almost never find me in some defense hardware related topics in this forum.

My guess is that raising a truly professional military like Pakistan has is a no joke. I saw a Gen. Hameed Gul interview mentioned that fact. Countries like Pakistan or Israel or Turkey have truly disciplined forces in the region and to 'train' the Saudi citizens to be up to the task--citizens who, by extension because of the oil wealth for generations--are not going to be as motivated to be 'trained'. And there is no blaming them: Why shed your own blood when you can hire some poor Egyptians to shed the blood?? What the Romans did millennia ago would be done by the modern rich countries.

In short--it's a pipe dream to have the Saudis trained to be like the Pakistani military. The Pakistani military has been fending off a very powerful India even after the Americans started alienating Pakistan after the Soviet withdrawals from Afghanistan AND with China, until just now, playing a neutral player, at least publicly.

I guess I did not make it clear enough, what I meant when I said that a half a million strong Army can be recruited, trained and equipped, I meant Pakistanis. We recruit 500k Pakistani youth between the ages of 18 - 24, on behalf of Saudi Arabian Military, train them, equip them and place them under the command of a serving (or even retired) Pakistani General (with senior hierarchy from the retired Military corp) to serve in Saudi Arabia under their ruler.

 

[Mamajama]

I guess I did not make it clear enough, what I meant when I said that a half a million strong Army can be recruited, trained and equipped, I meant Pakistanis. We recruit 500k Pakistani youth between the ages of 18 - 24, on behalf of Saudi Arabian Military, train them, equip them and place them under the command of a serving (or even retired) Pakistani General (with senior hierarchy from the retired Military corp) to serve in Saudi Arabia under their ruler.

To do what?

 

[shadowdragon]

I guess I did not make it clear enough, what I meant when I said that a half a million strong Army can be recruited, trained and equipped, I meant Pakistanis. We recruit 500k Pakistani youth between the ages of 18 - 24, on behalf of Saudi Arabian Military, train them, equip them and place them under the command of a serving (or even retired) Pakistani General (with senior hierarchy from the retired Military corp) to serve in Saudi Arabia under their ruler.

Ao they can just be killed in botched war like in Yemen

 

[Meengla]

I guess I did not make it clear enough, what I meant when I said that a half a million strong Army can be recruited, trained and equipped, I meant Pakistanis. We recruit 500k Pakistani youth between the ages of 18 - 24, on behalf of Saudi Arabian Military, train them, equip them and place them under the command of a serving (or even retired) Pakistani General (with senior hierarchy from the retired Military corp) to serve in Saudi Arabia under their ruler.

I think @shadowdragon already responded to that. No Pakistani should die for the whims of a spoiled brat like MBS!
And I am surprised a seasoned member like you would even suggest raising Pakistanis to be a mercenary army.

 

[Mav3rick]

I think @shadowdragon already responded to that. No Pakistani should die for the whims of a spoiled brat like MBS!
And I am surprised a seasoned member like you would even suggest raising Pakistanis to be a mercenary army.

Well, it is not how I would want things to go but we just don't have many other options but to sell ourselves for Pakistan. I just cannot think of many out of the box solutions to dig us out of the financial and other messes that we have dug ourselves into.

 

[Meengla]

Well, it is not how I would want things to go but we just don't have many other options but to sell ourselves for Pakistan. I just cannot think of many out of the box solutions to dig us out of the financial and other messes that we have dug ourselves into.

Plenty of options. The situation in Pakistan was dire until about 2014 because of domestic terrorism but now Pakistan has a lot going for Pakistan. The No. #1 issue which ruins third world countries is not 'corruption' but power-sharing between the political forces in Pakistan. And since 2002, Pakistan is having a fairly smooth transfers of power and that is a big, big achievement! For the longest, my signature at PDF used to be something like 'Political instability is the mother of all corruption' and I believe Pakistan has turned a corner as far as power-sharing between groups inside Pakistan.
Add to that, CPEC, slowing down of corruption, more and more educated young people, a growing support by a rising power like China...
As I keep saying in this forum: Pakistan's #1 problem now is water resource management. The rest is downhill.

 

[PakFactor]

Well, it is not how I would want things to go but we just don't have many other options but to sell ourselves for Pakistan. I just cannot think of many out of the box solutions to dig us out of the financial and other messes that we have dug ourselves into.

We can easily get out of our financial mess if we pull the proper strings in the international game. What Indians has been able to successfully do in the past was milk both sides for benefits, US for jobs and money and Russia for weapons and giving lip service to both. They started by creating economic zones and allowed western companies to invest in the country, create universities and programs to leverage themselves in sectors of the economy the West is behind on like STEM field. Hence we don’t need to sell ourselves for Pakistan. Pakistan has natural resources we can mine ourselves rather than leasing out our land for pennies on the dollar.

Problem with Pakistanis not just leadership but even in the real working world. If we chose a path we lay down satisfied and not travel to explore other avenues available to us. When we chose the Western/Arab camp we laid down and not looked the other way. I spoke to multiple retired Pak Army Officers as I have serving family, their one thought was West is Abrahamic and Soviet is Godless. That early on thinking was a death kneel, but I’m sure their were other ideas as to why. But this I will say is the main reason as per a retired ISI officer in my state.

What we lack is forward thinking, we think about tomorrow rather than 10,20 or 50 years down the road where we need to stand.